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Posted by italophil 1 day ago

Rubio stages font coup: Times New Roman ousts Calibri(www.reuters.com)
https://archive.md/x0Sxc
162 points | 281 comments
pinkmuffinere 4 hours ago|
When I read the headline i thought “well obviously they don’t mean Marco Rubio, there must be some famous publicist or something”. Cannot believe it actually was Marco Rubio, lol
weinzierl 3 hours ago|
[flagged]
1970-01-01 2 hours ago|||
Forgive my ignorance but this seems to be one of the most neutral things Hitler did. He just didn't like the font so he ordered it to be changed. Equivalent to your boss ordering tabs be used instead of spaces. After the war was lost the arguments just continued. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua%E2%80%93Fraktur_disput...
pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago|||
I tend to agree with you, many people are passionate about typefaces, and dictators are no exception. [Passion about typeface] seems to be a low-signal detector for dictators. I'm passionate about lasagna, and I'll bet Mussolini was too -- but that probably doesn't mean I'm a fascist.
actionfromafar 2 hours ago||||
Yeah it was so the occupied peoples could read the edicts better. Sp perhaps not so neutral, after all.
amwet 2 hours ago||
“I want a new font so it’s easier to read” isn’t neutral?
actionfromafar 2 hours ago||
Not when you are the aggressor in WW2?

I guess if Russia invaded Western Europe and Putin decided to switch from Cyrillic to Latin script so the subjugated peoples would more easily read and learn Russian, that would be neutral too?

irishcoffee 1 hour ago||
That isn’t a genuine argument.

Font face != different language + different alphabet.

Font, still a bad argument but technically correct. Font face, nah.

viraptor 2 hours ago||||
It didn't happen in isolation though. There were a few changes that used aesthetics as a culture influence and what being properly German should mean. Another one which was more explicit was music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_Nazi_Germany It was literally anti the idea of diversity and inclusion. Much like this change.

And just like with the font, that shaped preferences for years.

1970-01-01 1 hour ago||
That's still using their other culture choices to manufacture a problem with producing consistency in typeface. It's a stretch. Any good (don't take this out of context, please) leader will settle these kinds of trivial internal disputes and move onto important problems.
loeg 1 hour ago|||
As they say, "Hitler drank water."
vessenes 2 hours ago||||
If you read the article, Calibri usage was instituted during the Biden administration. So, there's probably a diversity of government styles that get involved with typefaces.
watwut 2 hours ago||
Calibri is designed for screen use and Times New Roman for printing. As usually, there is a practical option and conservative option.

But stakes are quite low here. Some bureaucrats will have nearly undetectably harder time to read Trump speaches

denkmoon 3 hours ago||||
Fascism relies on politicisation of aesthetic
PaulHoule 3 hours ago|||
See V is for Vendetta, I would argue there is a sort of seduction in the Baudrillard sense involved.
actionfromafar 2 hours ago||||
How is that downvoted? You can’t seriously disagree?
renewiltord 2 hours ago|||
Biden's choice of imposing a font therefore exposes that administration as fascist.
denkmoon 1 hour ago|||
While you'll get no argument from me about the Biden government being fascist adjacent, no. The font was chosen by that government for accessibility reasons. The font has now been changed for purely aesthetic reasons, attaching the politics of anti-DEIA to a particular aesthetic (serifed fonts).

As for the politics of that government, a history lesson; In 1930s Germany, Liberals did nothing to abort the rise of NSDAP, seeing them as economic allies if not political allies. They sold out their country and turned a blind eye to genuine evil for profit and the reduction of the political influence of their workforce.

wtfwhateven 2 hours ago|||
Nope. That choice wasn't for aesthetic reasons.
blueflow 3 hours ago|||
And they still found a way to blame it on the jews.
softgrow 1 day ago||
As documented at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_Easter_eggs google search for "times new roman font" and the results are returned in that font. (https://www.google.com/search?q=Times+New+Roman+Font for the lazy). Looks terrible on my screen.
nine_k 1 day ago|
Nice! Also works with Courier and Comic Sans, but, sadly, not with Helvetica.
cwnyth 23 hours ago|||
And Arial, Calibri, Georgia, and Cambria. It's missing Linux Libertine fonts, though. So typical.
layer8 2 hours ago|||
Wingdings would have been nice.
zzo38computer 20 hours ago||
Calibri font has "I" and "l" the same, according to Wikipedia. A better font should avoid characters being too similar (such as "I" and "l" and "1").

Another issue is due to the font size and font metrics, how much space it will take up on the page, to be small enough to avoid wasting paper and ink but also not too small to read.

So, there are multiple issues in choosing the fonts; however, Times New Roman and Calibri are not the only two possible choices.

Maybe the government should make up their own (hopefully public domain) font, which would be suitable for their purposes (and avoiding needing proprietary fonts), and use that instead.

jazzyjackson 3 hours ago||
> Maybe the government should make up their own

They have, public sans, courtesy of USWDS, and it does distinguish between l and I with a little hook/spur on lowercase el

https://public-sans.digital.gov/

https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Public+Sans?preview.text=1...

layer8 1 hour ago|||
It’s also on GitHub: https://github.com/uswds/public-sans

The glyph repertoire is a bit limited, though.

vessenes 2 hours ago|||
Ooh, I like Public Sans! I hadn't seen it before.
HPsquared 3 hours ago|||
Come to think of it, I vs l vs 1 vs | is one advantage of serif fonts.
ajross 3 hours ago|||
> Calibri font has "I" and "l" the same, according to Wikipedia. A better font should avoid characters being too similar (such as "I" and "l" and "1").

Only when used in a context where they can be confused. This is a situation where HN is going to give bad advice. Programmers care deeply about that stuff (i.e. "100l" is a long-valued integer literal in C and not the number 1001). Most people tend not to, and there is a long tradition of fonts being a little ambiguous in that space.

But yes, don't use Calibri in your editor.

MarkusQ 2 hours ago|||
> Most people tend not to

Except the whole rationale for going to Calibri in the first place was that it was supposedly more accessible due to being easier to OCR.

NewJazz 1 hour ago||
That's the "diversity" they were talking about?? Fucks sake.
IshKebab 3 hours ago|||
> Most people tend not to

Yeah because normal people never have to deal with alphanumeric strings...

dragonwriter 2 hours ago|||
> Yeah because normal people never have to deal with alphanumeric strings...

Natural language tends to have a high degree of disambiguating redundancy and is used to communicate between humans, who are good at making use of that. Programming languages have somewhat less of disambiguating redundancy (or in extreme cases almost none), and, most critically, are used to communicate with compilers and interpreters that have zero capacity to make use of it even when it is present.

This makes "letter looks like a digit that would rarely be used in a place where both make sense" a lot more of a problem for a font used with a programming language than a font used for a natural language.

Ferret7446 58 minutes ago|||
People named Al are having a field day with the recent AI boom.

El confusion is absolutely a problem for regular people.

morshu9001 1 hour ago|||
Legal language isn't very natural
dragonwriter 1 hour ago||
Legal language is natural language with particular domain-specific technical jargon; like other uses of natural language, it targets humans who are quite capable of resolving ambiguity via context and not compilers and interpreters that are utterly incapable of doing so.

Not that official State Department communication is mostly “legal language” as distinct from more general formal use of natural language to start with.

ajross 3 hours ago|||
No, because normal people can read "l00l" as a number just fine and don't actually care if the underlying encoding is different. AI won't care either. It's just us on-the-spectrum nerds with our archaic deterministic devices and brains trained on them that get wound up about it. Designing a font for normal readers is just fine.
HumanOstrich 3 minutes ago||
[delayed]
gerdesj 1 hour ago||
A font was the en_US version of fount. A fount was a particular example of a typeface. A typeface is something like TNR or Calibri. They all seem to have been munged into a single set of synonyms except for fount which has been dropped (so why do we still have colour and all that stuff)?

A print, then typewriter, then computer typeface emulates a written script but also takes on a life of its own. Handwriting in english is mostly gibberish these days because hardly anyone uses a pen anymore! However, it is mostly "cursive" and cursive is not the same as serif and sans.

English prides itself on not having diacritics, or accents or whatever that thing where you merge a A and E is called, unless they are borrowed: in which case all bets are off; or there is an r in the month and the moon is in Venus.

So you want a font and it needs to look lovely. If your O and 0 are not differentiated then you have failed. 2:Z?, l:L:1? Good.

I use a german style slash across the number seven when I write the number, even though my number one is nothing like a german one, which looks more like a lambda. I also slash a lone capital Zed. I slash a zero: 0 and dot an O when writing code on paper. Basically, when I write with a pen you are in absolutely no doubt what character I have written, unless the DTs kick in 8)

FeteCommuniste 58 minutes ago|||
The linked A+E thing is called a ligature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(writing)

Same root as "ligament" and "ligand."

irishcoffee 1 hour ago|||
I thought I was the only one that still crossed a seven and slashed a zero. I don’t dot an ‘O’ however.
IggleSniggle 49 minutes ago|||
That's good, because the "O" should never be dotted. You use slash OR dot for zero, unless you vaguely remember them both as useful for disambiguating but forgot that both marks are for zero and vary by typeface. Mostly dotted zero was just during the dot matrix era. I wouldn't mind being shown counter examples.
FeteCommuniste 55 minutes ago||||
I cross my sevens, slash my zeros, and use a hook on lowercase T to avoid confusion with plus signs. I think I developed the hook-T habit in college math classes.
Jailbird 1 hour ago|||
I cross my sevens!

I'll consider starting to slash my zeros. Seems legit.

davchana 24 minutes ago||
In india its considered bad omen to slash 7s.
thayne 2 hours ago||
> calling his predecessor Antony Blinken's decision to adopt Calibri a "wasteful" diversity move

And changing it back to Times New Roman isn't wasteful?

donw 2 hours ago|
[flagged]
Jordan-117 2 hours ago|||
I'd say changing something for vague aesthetic reasons is far more wasteful than doing so to make things more accessible. Compare the cost of installing a curb cut vs. filling it back in because you think a straight curb looks "stronger."
fsckboy 1 hour ago||
serif vs sans serif is not "a vague aesthetic reason", it's the most fundamental typeface choice you can make, moreso than monospace (which is an artifact of some 19th century technology) Rubio is an attorney, and there are many stylistic conventions in the legal and judicial space, why ruffle those feathers by flouting them? if you are given a style guide for your PhD thesis, do you follow it or do you futz endlessly with the fonts to show them what an independent thinker you are?
stickfigure 2 hours ago||||
Whether or not serifs actually make text harder to read, at least there is some plausible justification for the original change. Maybe it was stupid at the time, but it's done.

The justification here is petty and wasteful on its face.

ChadNauseam 2 hours ago|||
No one said it can't be changed back. No one called anyone weird or Hitler. They just said that "it was wasteful to change it from X to Y, so I'm changing it from Y back to X" isn't a logical argument.
UncleOxidant 1 hour ago||
There's a new serif in town.
dsevil 58 minutes ago||
I've seen some comments about how Times New Roman was replaced with something else to improve readability by many.

There's an irony: the _Times_ (of London) commissioned it in 1932 to improve the readability of its newspaper, which previously used a Didone/Modern style typeface.

I like Times New Roman and I find Calibri, a rounded-corner sans serif, to be an absolute abomination of milquetoast typography.

joshuaheard 9 minutes ago||
Most federal courts require documents filed there to be in Times New Roman font.
BuyMyBitcoins 2 minutes ago|
Moreover, due to executive order the typeface is now called “Times New American”.
loadingcmd 23 hours ago||
As the administration steps back from global affairs, it seems the State Department is searching for direction. Rubio would go like - we’re done with managing world affairs via the NSS, what should we do next? Let’s change the font for a new perspective!
hightrix 2 hours ago||
> it seems the State Department is searching for direction

I would argue that it seems more like the State Department is searching for distraction moreso than direction. From the murders, theft, and the epstien files.

seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago||
Times New Roman is an old perspective. It’s all part of Trump’s plan to take America back to 1950 and pretend 2050 isn’t coming up.
xdennis 2 hours ago|||
From the article:

> The department under Blinken in early January 2023 had switched to Calibri

jasonlotito 2 hours ago||
Times New Roman existed in 1950. Your comment does not in ANY way contest the parent comment.
morshu9001 2 hours ago||
So did sans serif fonts
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2 hours ago|||
They should bring back mid-Atlantic accents, then there'd be some silver lining to all this bullshit
actionfromafar 2 hours ago||
Yeah, we all thought the fascists at least would be stylish when they came.

No, it’s all just fake gold and baseball caps.

iambateman 4 minutes ago||
You know what they always say…never waste a good crisis.

This is our opportunity to tell our friends that neither Times New Roman nor Calibri are very good fonts.

If they’re using Word—and they definitely are—Aptos is a better choice than either.

If they want to look fancy and have a serif in their life, maybe they could try a little Cambria.

But if they have a twinkle in their eye and seem like they want to learn, take a moment to introduce them to the wide and glorious world of Roboto. Tell them about the wonders of medium and light and semi-bold and extra-bold and wide and display and condensed and custom ligatures. Give them a taste of what real office typography could’ve been if Microsoft didn’t absolutely destroy it in the 90’s.

Open their mind. Show them the truth. This is your time.

RajBhai 16 hours ago|
I have a couple of thoughts about this.

Firstly, I thought sans-serif typefaces were encouraged for digital media because they read better than serif fonts. But now that high pixel density displays have permeated the market, this might be a moot point.

On another note, I wonder how much of the hate TNR gets stems from its ubiquity for having been installed on almost all personal computers for the past n decades.

Paganis are beautifully designed cars, but the labelling of buttons and toggles inside the center console look cheap (IMO) because their font seems straight out of a quickly made flyer designed by bored teacher who just discovered Word Art.

IAmBroom 7 hours ago|
My understanding has always been that serif fonts read better for long text, and sans-serif for short text - so signage in Arial and policy statements in Times New Roman.

And Comic Sans for letters sent to friends finishing design school, obviously.

There are all sorts of statistical rules falling out of studies about where the long/short divide is, ambient lighting, blah blah blah - but human vision is even more variable than most biological quantities, so in the end general rules are the best one can really do.

Here of course, it's nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs, while the captain targets the next iceberg "to teach the ice a lesson!"

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