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Posted by saigrandhi 1 day ago

Is it a bubble?(www.oaktreecapital.com)
317 points | 557 commentspage 6
josefritzishere 1 day ago|
This is one of the few times I think Betteridge's law is wrong.
MarkusQ 1 day ago|
Yep. But be careful, somebody doesn't like when you say that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=46136301

bossyTeacher 1 day ago||
"Coding performed by AI is at a world-class level". Once I hit that line, I stopped reading. This tells me this person didn't do proper research on this matter.
calebm 1 day ago||
I recently had ChatGPT refactor an entire mathematical graph rendering logic that I wrote in vanilla js, and had it rewrite it as GLSL. It took about an hour overall (required a few prompts). That is world-class level in my opinion.
mcv 1 day ago|||
I'm currently trying to get Claude Sonnet 4.5 to produce a graph rendering algorithm, and while it's producing results, they're not the right results. I should probably do this myself and let the AI handle just the boilerplate code.
calebm 1 day ago||
I have consistently had good results when I understand the problem and outsource the details to AI, but bad results when I try to have it work without me understanding the problem.
mcv 18 hours ago||
Yeah, but then what do you need the AI for? It's programming it myself that helps me understand all the intricacies of the problem. That's exactly the part that gets cut off by outsourcing it to AI. The AI is not a "world class programmer" if it still needs me to tell it the solution to the problem.
bossyTeacher 1 day ago|||
If I tell people that I can write programming code at world-class level and in some of my reviews I make junior mistakes, I make out functions or dependencies that do not exist or I am unable to learn from my mistakes, I would be put on PIP immediately. And after a while, fired. This is the standard LLMs should be held up against when you use the word "world class".
cognivore 1 day ago||
That's because AI allows poor programmers to appear as good programmers, which is actually a good thing as otherwise they'd be writing crap you'd have to code-review, but their understanding of what is good code is poor, so you're back to having to vet it all anyway. At least you can us AI for that. Except you can't, without vetting it.

I literally just today watched my entire team descend into "Release Hell" where an obscure bug in business logic already delivered to thousands of customers broke right as we were about to ship a release. Obscure bug, huge impact on the customer, as they actually ended up charging people more than they should have. The team-members, and yes, not leads, used AI to write that bug and then tried to prompt their way out of the bug. It turned into a giant game of whack-a-mole as other business logic had errors introduced that thankfully got caught by tests. Then it was discovered that they never understood the code, they could only maintain it with prompts.

Let that sink in. They don't understand what they're doing, they just massage the spec into prompts and when it appears to work and pass tests they call it good.

We looked at the prompts. They were insane. They actually just kept adding more specification to the end, but if you read through it all it had contradictory logic, which I would have hoped the AI would have pointed out, but nope. It was actually just easier for me and another senior to rewrite the logic as pseudo-code, cut the size down by literally 3/4, and eventually got it all working as expected.

So that's the future, girls and boys. People putting together code they don't understand with AI, and can only maintain with AI, and then not being able to fix with AI because they cannot prompt accurately enough because English sucks at being precise.

b3ing 1 day ago||
Everyday someone says/asks this statement/question. The "(Is) AI (is) a bubble" statement/question is now a bubble.
dpe82 1 day ago||
A take I saw recently is: if people are still asking "are we in a bubble" then we are not yet in a bubble.
Retr0id 1 day ago||
I think it'd be truer to say that you can't be sure it's a bubble until after it pops.
9rx 1 day ago|||
Except not all (market) bubbles pop. Sometimes they slowly deflate, and sometimes they stabilize ("soft landing").
rvz 1 day ago|||
That is like telling others who experience natural disasters to wait until it happens and then ask themselves "How much damage will it bring" and then someone else tells them that it costed them everything.

Anyone who has lived through the dotcom bubble knows that this AI mania is a obvious bubble and the whole point is you have to prepare before it eventually pops, not after someone tells you that it is too late when it pops.

Retr0id 1 day ago||
You don't prepare by making predictions about when it will pop, you prepare by hedging etc.

Just as those who live in earthquake-prone areas build earthquake-resistant buildings.

rvz 1 day ago||
> you prepare by hedging etc.

Has to be done before the eventual collapse of the bubble and still proves my whole point:

>> the whole point is you have to prepare before it eventually pops.

Retr0id 20 hours ago||
Knowing whether it is or isn't a bubble isn't relevant to the decision to prepare. You prepare for both possibilities!
9rx 1 day ago||
Bubbles occur when undue attention is directed towards something. When people are asking "are we in a bubble", there is no question that we are in a bubble. Nobody pays attention to things aligned to the fundamentals.

That doesn't mean there will be a crash, though. Not all bubbles pop.

mxschumacher 1 day ago||
what are some historical examples of bubbles that didn't pop?
9rx 1 day ago||
Since this is HN, I'll go with the most obvious: Software development. Unsustainable, speculative growth through the COVID-19 period, but on the other side relatively slow decline.
simianwords 1 day ago||
This is the perfect example of people who constantly cried that it is a bubble but it wasn’t.
9rx 1 day ago||
Nobody pays attention to things aligned to the fundamentals. When people are crying that there is a bubble, it is a bubble. Plain and simple.

We know for certain it was a bubble as non-bubbles have sustainable growth. As all the software developers now struggling to find work will be happy to tell you, the growth wasn't sustainable. The proof is in the pudding.

simianwords 1 day ago||
How do you prove that software development is a bubble?

Stock prices are at all time high and continuously growing.

9rx 1 day ago||
> How do you prove that software development is a bubble?

By looking at the software development market. How else would you do it? Salaries rose sharply from 2020-2023, but then plateaued and are now starting to decline. Slowly, however. It did not crash. It ticks the boxes: Rapid price appreciation, speculation, a disconnect from fundamentals, widespread media attention, and an eventual correction.

> Stock prices are at all time high and continuously growing.

If we're sharing random facts: Global average temperature is also at an all time high and continuously increasing.

simianwords 1 day ago||
1. the labour market has not much to do with whether it is a bubble or not

2. definition of bubble is that the market cap must precipitously reduce, which it hasn't.

9rx 1 day ago||
> the labour market has not much to do with whether it is a bubble or not

How can the very market we're talking about not indicate whether there is a bubble in that market or not? Do you think we should be looking at the price of soybeans instead?

> definition of bubble is that the market cap must precipitously reduce, which it hasn't.

Incorrect. It has, just not by very much. Which isn't surprising as we already established that there wasn't a crash.

simianwords 1 day ago||
What is your definition of bubble then? If not by market cap?
9rx 1 day ago||
Why read comments in isolation? We already went over this:

- Rapid price appreciation

- Speculation

- A disconnect from fundamentals

- Widespread media attention

- An eventual correction

If market cap, how do you explain housing bubbles? Market cap is not applicable to housing.

simianwords 1 day ago||
of course market cap of housing went down! individual houses fell down in price.

that didn't happen for tech stocks. you are making your own definitions of bubble - the sufficient thing to happen is for the market cap to go down precipetously which it didnt.

9rx 1 day ago||
> of course market cap of housing went down! individual houses fell down in price.

Traditionally, market cap only refers to companies. I accept your pet definition that includes any kind of market, but then we can apply it to the software development market just the same. Individual software developers have fallen in price. There was not a significant drop, but a slow decline.

> that didn't happen for tech stocks.

Nor gold. But what does that have to do with the software development market? Are you under the impression that stock certificates write code?

curtisblaine 1 day ago||
The real question is: if this is a bubble and it explodes, will interest rates of common people with a mortgage shoot up? If yes, some heads better be rolling for real this time. All other considerations are secondary.
d0liver 23 hours ago||
TL;DR is "I don't know" with a dash of "Innovative tech usually creates bubbles and I think we can all agree that AI is a fucking revelation"
Reason077 1 day ago||
TLDR: Yes.
rvz 1 day ago||
TLDR:

Yes.

rvz 1 day ago|
Sorry to pop your bubble...

...it is a bubble and we all know it.

(I know you have RSUs / shares / golden handcuffs waiting to be vested in the next 1 - 4 years which is why you want the bubble to continue to get bigger.)

But one certainty is the crash will be spectacular.

Esophagus4 1 day ago||
I presume, given your confidence in a crash, you have a massive short? Hedged? Something clever to capture the downside you're so confident will come?

I would love to see your portfolio, if you wouldn't mind showing the class. Let us see what your allocation reveals about what you really think...

reeeli 1 day ago||
Is it "work"?

Off--topic: how many get overpaid for absolute bullshit?

moomoo11 1 day ago|
Man some you guys are lame. Seriously.

Remember 2019-2021 when y’all were sure the fed would be dissolved and the dollar would crash and everyone would be poor if they didn’t have a bored ape and 80% bitcoin portfolio?

Relax.

AI is a tool. Just ride the wave. It’s gonna crash some people out. It’s entertaining watching them. You’re not being crashed out, right? Ride the wave dawg.

satvikpendem 1 day ago|
> Remember 2019-2021 when y’all were sure the fed would be dissolved and the dollar would crash and everyone would be poor if they didn’t have a bored ape and 80% bitcoin portfolio?

I don't know which "y'all" you're talking about because it's certainly not the HN crowd, who is famously anti-cryptocurrency in general. Perhaps you're thinking of the bros on Twitter back then.

moomoo11 1 day ago|||
Nope. Here. About half the posts would be about crypto, and the comments were the same split arguing about it.

It was doomer AF on one end, and optimistic AF on the other end.

So, it reminds me of the same FOMO many spread here.

emptyfile 1 day ago|||
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