Top
Best
New

Posted by fzeindl 4 days ago

Koralm Railway(infrastruktur.oebb.at)
315 points | 196 commentspage 2
lcuff 3 days ago|
I remember reading some time ago that there is a real difficulty running passenger trains and freight trains over the same rails. With freight, you can tolerate bumps at the rail-join points, and freight tends to create such bumps because the heavy loads push the rails slightly out of place. Also, freight routes should be limited to a 2% grade, whereas 4% can be tolerated for the lighter passenger cars. Have these problems been mitigated on the Koralm Railway? Anyone know how?
joushx 2 days ago|
The rails are welded together (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding), so there are no joins.
djoldman 4 days ago||
Webcams!

https://infrastruktur.oebb.at/en/projects-for-austria/railwa...

throwaway2037 4 days ago||
First, this is a massive accomplishment. When I looked at the Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koralm_Railway

... it looks like a multi-multi-multi-phase project. Hats off to making this work.

Second, I noticed how long it took to build this tunnel: Koralm Tunnel -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koralm_Tunnel

It is 33km, and it took from 2008 to 2025 to build it. That is a damn long time! The Toei Oedo line in Tokyo is 40+km and was built in about 10 years. My guess about the wild difference: The geoengineering of the Koralm Tunnel is way more complex, and/or the rock is much harder. Can anyone with experience in this area comment? I would like to learn more. I guess that most of central Tokyo is aluvial plains (Shanghai is similar), so you are basically digging through clay and sand -- easy stuff for modern tunnel boring machines.

monster_truck 4 days ago||
The rock they dug through for Koralm is, no hyperbole, about as bad as it gets. It's the gnarliest part of what's under the Alps and required them switching back and forth between boring and blasting.

Being two separate tunnels, it also needs twice as much excavation work. It's also ~25x deeper than Toei Oedo (4000ft vs 157ft). At 4000ft the rock itself is 45-50C!

manarth 4 days ago|||
The Koralm tunnel has a different temperature gradient, as the depth is a consequence of a mountain on top of the tunnel, rather than an increased proximity to the earth crust/core.

    > "The undisturbed rock temperature varies from 10 °C, in tunnel sections close to the portals, to 32 °C in the tunnel centre"
32°C is still a significant engineering concern, but not as consequential as 45–50°C.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088677982...

monster_truck 4 days ago|||
Looks like they reported a peak of 39C in the summer. Either way I figured that would still be pretty miserable, especially if it gets up around 100% humidity.

Assumed they would at least have their own air in the bits that didn't have aircon/ventilation while it was being built. They don't even need to do that anymore! The ventilation systems they used are as advanced and bespoke as the boring machines.

Because they were blasting too, they couldn't utilize full-face pressurization of the entire tunnel to maintain negative pressure to suck all of the fumes, dust, silicates, etc out like they would if it was only boring. That's 1-3kPa, "leaks are jets of air, can pull an airlock door closed hard enough to break bones" territory.

Instead, they have a bunch of dedicated supply and exhaust vents going to the surface (some up to 2m in diameter) and sets of connections between the two tunnels with huge axial fans. It allows them to selectively apply "slight" negative pressure to any of the individual segments when they need to clear them. 50Pa is ~10x what you encounter in a negative pressure highrise. It is described as a "constant slight breeze"

I found this short video on some of the safety features of the finished tunnel. It almost looks "too serious", like something out of a James Bond movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8trt96huf0

m4rtink 4 days ago|||
A tunnel on the Kurobe gorge railway (originally used for dam contruction, now partially open to tourists) has reached 160 °C (!!) during construction, but has cooled down to manageable 40 °C since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurobe_Seny%C5%8D_Railway

sweezyjeezy 4 days ago||||
It's also really hard to make the tunnel remain a tunnel over its expected 150 year lifespan - given that it basically runs through a fault line. They had to study and test local geology for about 15 years, build certain sections to expect some movement over time, as well as kit everything out with a lot of sensors.

Overall an amazing achievement, and unsurprising it took this long to figure out!

monster_truck 4 days ago||
After seeing some of the safety features in a short video I linked in another comment, I get the impression that this is either going to last much longer than 150 years or something so catastrophic will happen that nothing that could have been built would've persisted.
throwaway2037 4 days ago|||
Good point about "boring vs blasting". I didn't think about that. I remember reading about the longest tunnel in Japan between Honshu and Hokkaido (Seikan Tunnel). I recall that it was entirely hand drilled due to unusual soil conditions. I wonder if that would still be true today with state of the art tunnel boring machines.

   > Being two separate tunnels, it also needs twice as much excavation work.
Yet another great point. At some of the Toei Oedo stations, you can see a miniature model of the weird overlapping twin tunnel boring machines. So, in theory it is two tunnels, but in practice, it was dug as a single, weird overlapping twin tunnel.
DoktorL 4 days ago|||
You also cannot directly compare a metro line to intercity rail. That line in Tokyo was like what, 20th they built all in the same terrain, they are really good at this by now. Meanwhile, rail tunnels are usually bespoke projects.
nasmorn 4 days ago|||
It is very strange that countries like Austria, Japan or Switzerland have some of the best rail systems in the world even though their bridge and tunnel requirements are huge. In the US building rail on any terrain seems to be more expensive than basically anything one can build in Austria.
kaon_2 4 days ago|||
Not strange at all! If you want to go by car you must build even more tunnels. Mountainous regions favor rail just like urban areas do. Furthermore, 19th century investments into rail still pay off in mountainous regions, because once you build a railway bridge or tunnel, you are kind of dumb not to use it. In the USA competition from trucks or cars is much tougher.
bluGill 4 days ago||
Note the US has the number one freight rail system in the world by most measures (there are lots of ways to measure this depending on how you want to abuse the statistics). Some of this is Europe has better river routes to work with (I don't know Asia), but some of this is Europe has focused more on passengers to the point where freight is unable to get through forcing trucks.
browningstreet 4 days ago||
And still, to drive on highways in the US is to drive between trucks.
csomar 4 days ago|||
Here is a huge/difficult island with only 55K that has tons of tunnels: https://maps.app.goo.gl/abcnXtRNs9QdVkhC8

Population size, density, terrain, etc. have nothing to do with it.

epolanski 4 days ago|||
Geography I guess[1].

Kanto is flat, it's the only region in Japan that could sustain feeding such a massive population and could allow building the first mega city on the planet.

Combine that with the massive engineering and rail experience Japanese have, and it's no surprise imho that combined with favorable geography they could build it quickly.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Topograp...

throwaway2037 4 days ago||
This is interesting analysis. Many good points. Regarding this comment: "first mega city on the planet": As I understand, in the modern era, Beijing was the first city in the world to have one million people.
epolanski 4 days ago|||
Mega cities are 10M+, NYC was the first metropolitan area to cross this milestone and Tokyo the first city proper.
ch_sm 4 days ago|||
Really? I always thought it was London in 1801. Do you have a link to the data?
e12e 4 days ago||
I'm guessing geology play a big part - Japan is mostly "new" rock, Alps mostly "old".
throwaway2037 4 days ago||
Sorry, I don't understand your point. Why is Japan considered "new" and European Alps considered "old"?
aa-jv 4 days ago||
The Japanese islands are situated in one of the most geologically active regions on Earth, primarily characterized by multiple subduction zones where four major tectonic plates, producing 'new' Earth, emerge.

The Alps are very, very old in comparison.

hans_castorp 4 days ago||
For those that can read German, here is a little article that explains some of the obstacles over time:

https://www.derstandard.at/story/3000000299789/traum-vom-sue...

f1codz 4 days ago||
Can i please say something about the announcement itself. I marvel at its simplicity and focus on the outcomes & benefits. Especially its lack of trying to link it to a political party / person is very refreshing to see and i wish can be emulated in some of the more developing nations.
TheAtomic 4 days ago||
A map, just put a &^%^$^#@$%! map showing the rail line on your web page. Somewhere. Anywhere!
erikvanoosten 4 days ago||
Its one click further :)

https://infrastruktur.oebb.at/en/projects-for-austria/railwa...

tacker2000 4 days ago||
Here are 2 maps

https://infrastruktur.oebb.at/de/geschaeftspartner/transport...

https://www.sn.at/panorama/oesterreich/koralmbahn-bringt-sal...

apexalpha 4 days ago||
I thought this was about the new base tunnel under the Alps and was very confused for a bit.
MadDemon 4 days ago|
The Brenner base tunnel is still under construction.
davidu 4 days ago||
It turns out, you can build new high speed railways. Take note California!
jeingham 4 days ago|
Eh, not really.
saubeidl 4 days ago||
I know its a small nitpick, but I got unreasonably annoyed at the two "Financed by EU fund x" banners having different flag sizes, paddings, fonts etc.

How is there no unifying design language for these?

throwaway2037 4 days ago||
Do you mean these two?

https://image-service.web.oebb.at/infra/.imaging/default/dam...

https://image-service.web.oebb.at/infra/.imaging/default/dam...

saubeidl 4 days ago||
Yup. Why are the paddings, fonts and colors all over the place? Just decide on one!
csomar 4 days ago||
NextGenerationEU
brnt 4 days ago||
Is there any design? It's just the flag and a title + subtitle.

Also, the EU is the most efficient government in terms of overhead, and having seen some of it up close not wasting time or money on "unifying design languages" for every single funding billboard is very much EU style. Just copy-paste by some local authority in Powerpoint in most cases, I bet.

wongarsu 4 days ago|||
Looking at the modern iterations of the program guidelines for these programs, especially [1] and [2], you basically have to use the flag, the text over, under or to either side of the flag (your choice) in one of 6 fonts (Arial, Auto, Calibri, Garamond, Tahoma, Trebuchet, Ubuntu or Verdana), and have some rules for minimum distance, minimum size and proportionality. They absolutely could have made those two match visually. But each program offers premade banners that match the design criteria, and those don't always harmonize. As you say, nobody cared

1: https://hadea.ec.europa.eu/programmes/connecting-europe-faci...

2: https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/3192a0ef-6bda...

3: https://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/information-sources/log...

tasuki 4 days ago|||
What are the funding billboards for, anyway? They're an eyesore, and it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway. They should say "financed by you", or better yet, not exist to begin with.
tremon 4 days ago|||
it's all paid by us EU taxpayers anyway

That's simply not true, the EU subsidy budget is dwarfed by each country's national budget. From https://eubudget.europarl.europa.eu/en/how-it-works/ :

The EU budget [..] accounts annually for around 1% of the EU's GNI (gross national income), or around €160-180 billion. National public spending by EU countries averages nearly 50% of their respective GNI.

tasuki 4 days ago||
> That's simply not true

I'm not sure I understand your comment tbh. Where does the money come from, if not from EU taxpayers?

> the EU subsidy budget is dwarfed by each country's national budget.

My comment had nothing to do with that.

The page you linked has a question "How is the budget funded", which lists the revenues:

> Another difference between the EU budget and national budgets is that the EU lacks direct taxation power to finance its budget and instead relies on revenues called “own resources”.

> These revenues are:

> - Custom duties on imports into the EU

> - A small part of the VAT collected by each EU country

> - A contribution based on the amount of non-recycled plastic waste in each EU country

> - National contribution from each EU country based on its gross national income (GNI). All member states contribute according to their share in the combined GNI of EU countries. This is the largest share of the own resources.

I'd say all of that comes from the EU taxpayers.

brnt 4 days ago||||
They put them up with and without the EU funding info, right? Here most is not EU funded, but there are still signs, because how else do you know what is going on? Or are big construction projects completely unsigned where you live?
tasuki 4 days ago||
They used to be unsigned. I agree it's good for the funding to be transparent, but a government and/or EU-wide website would be fine to list the supported projects. No need for ugly signs.
rsynnott 4 days ago||||
I mean, see Brexit; there's a bit of a "what have the Romans ever done for us" aspect to a lot of euroscepticism. Some of the more Brexit-y regions were also amongst the poorest, and thus the largest beneficiaries of EU funding (eg https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fea...)

The idea is to show people the benefits of the EU, essentially. It is unclear how well it works.

Cornwall, say, had reason to feel hard done by; it was the second-poorest NUTS 3 region in Northern Europe. It's just that they were directing their ire at Europe, and not at the national government where it belonged. All but one of the ten poorest NUTS 3 regions in Northern Europe were in the UK pre-Brexit (along with the very richest NUTS 3 region, inner London), and there's a reason for that.

(Of course, the problem is now solved by Brexit; as the UK no longer participates in Eurostat, _none_ of the poorest regions in the Eurostat statistics are in the UK!)

mytailorisrich 4 days ago||
Yes, I remember Wales received a lot of EU funding for infrastructure and there used to be those "funded by the EU" signs everywhere. They voted in favour of Brexit.

I think this sort of things does little to convince people. The road network was there and working before the EU, it is still there and working now.

Especially, people were well aware that the UK was a consistent net contributor to the EU budget so knew that EU funding for infrastructure was not reallly a benefit.

saubeidl 4 days ago||
It was still a benefit for Wales.

Yes, the UK government was a net contributor, but the UK government likes to concentrate its spending around London.

EU funding was specifically given out to poorer regions (like Wales) that were long neglected by their national governments.

mytailorisrich 4 days ago||
Well, except that in the UK the devolved nations (Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland) receive more funding from the government than England does. For instance, Wales received 20% more money per person than England does.

Devolution itself also means that, effectively, the UK government is in charge of England while the devolved governments are in charge of their respective nations, so just looking at which projects the UK government funds is misleading.

So, it is not accurate to say that regions are neglected, and you might even argue that ultimately the South East of England and England overall fund the whole country...

Overall, I do not know if that was specifically a benefit for Wales. Obviously in the end the Welsh decided that the cons outweighted the pros, anyway.

preisschild 4 days ago|||
I (pro-EU Austrian) think they are great, as they show that we also get huge benefits through our EU membership and that we can do such enormous megaprojects only together

Also, eyesore? What do you have against the EU flag?

mytailorisrich 4 days ago|||
Austria is a net contributor to the EU, contributing 30% more than it receives (very roughly contributes 3 billion and receives 2).

Now I am sure that Austria has benefited from EU membership, but this is not one of the areas.

saubeidl 4 days ago||
As an Austrian, the benefit is that the funding decision didn't get made at the Austrian level.

The funds are less useful if they're in the hands of our government.

mytailorisrich 4 days ago||
They do get made at national level. That's because, for example, what to build is decided at national level, then they bid for EU funding as part of financing of the project.

Basically yoy bid to get some of your money back...

saubeidl 4 days ago||
Yes - the final decision whether the money gets spent is at the EU level.

Which is much better than at the Austrian politics level.

mytailorisrich 4 days ago||
One can only bring a horse to water...
tasuki 4 days ago||||
> Also, eyesore? What do you have against the EU flag?

I like the EU flag. I do not like the billboards. They just do not look good. Plant an actual flag there instead? I'd prefer that!

DeathArrow 4 days ago|||
Austria is probably giving EU more money than it receives, so how is that going to help?
saubeidl 4 days ago||
But would Austria have used its money for a European transit corridor if not for the EU?
DeathArrow 4 days ago|
While staying within budget for infrastructure developments is no small achievement these days and I applaud them for it, 27 years seems a bit much.
More comments...