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Posted by fleahunter 3 days ago

Sick of smart TVs? Here are your best options(arstechnica.com)
608 points | 503 comments
taxmeifyoucan 2 days ago|
For a hacker news article, it misses the crucial option - hacking a smart TV! I have LG OLED jailbroken using rootmy.tv, it was pretty trivial. It's basically a linux computer with a huge screen, you can customize it, SSH into it, map any commands to the remote, etc.

Before I only used monitor, simple DP/HDMI input is all I wanted. But being able to take full control of the tv and connect it with other devices in the house I would normally get Rpi for is pretty convenient!

pabs3 2 days ago||
You shouldn't have to hack it, you should have the right to repair the software on your device. Hopefully the Vizio lawsuit will help with that for Linux based devices, signs are looking good though.

https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html

godelski 2 days ago|||
You're right, but until the laws change we should be telling everyone how and make these tools better. If we can't change the laws we can make the cat and mouse game too expensive for them to continue.

Plus, I'm pretty confident they are already doing illegal things. On my Samsung TV it wants to force update. There is no decline option, there is no option to turn off updates, only to take it completely offline. There's no way in hell these kinds of contracts would be legal in any other setting. There's no meaningful choice and contracts that strongarm one party are almost always illegal. You can't sign a contract where the bank can arbitrary change the loan on you (they can change interest but they can't arbitrarily charge how that interest is determined. Such as going from 1% to 1000% without some crazy impossible economic situation).

Someone needs to start a class action. Someone needs to push that as far as the courts will go

pabs3 2 days ago||
Agreed. Its not that useful, but I have been collecting exploits here when I see any that could potentially be useful for replacing firmware on devices.

https://wiki.debian.org/Exploits

Retr0id 2 days ago|||
This is just about GPL compliance though (afaik LG TVs are already GPL compliant, or at least, I haven't noticed any noncompliance).

The bigger problem here is tivoization. You can build a fresh kernel from source but you have no way to install it because the bootloader is locked down.

pabs3 2 days ago|||
As Conservancy would say, a device with no way to modify isn't GPLv2 compliant either.

https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t... https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017...

darkwater 2 days ago||
We should really be happy that Torvalds decided to license Linux as GPL software. If it was BSD these discussions would simply not exist, and corporate power over software would be even greater. I would dare to say we would probably not even have an open source scene at all...
paxcoder 2 days ago||
Unfortunately, Torvalds supported tivoization: https://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/13/289
pabs3 2 days ago||||
The lawsuit is indeed about the GPL, but the right to repair (or at least replace) software really it needs to be expanded to all software. The right to repair movement is often about software-based lockdowns. Hopefully it will eventually result in those being banned.
jader201 2 days ago|||
> It's basically a linux computer with a huge screen

Why would I want a Linux computer with a huge screen?

I just want a huge screen.

I’ll provide my own connected devices, independent of the screen.

ranguna 2 days ago|||
Well, you can make it a PC and then turn it off, I guess. Then let the rest of us have all the fun.
stravant 2 days ago||||
Why wouldn't you want it to be a computer? Then it can be connected to your devices AND also do the job itself in a situation where it's awkward to connect to a device.

If already needs a computer in it to drive menus / modern display protocols. Having that computer be powerful enough to also decode content is barely an extra cost.

fulafel 2 days ago|||
A rooted piece of trashy IOT is trashy IOT. It's an acquired taste, the excitement of putting a black box insecure linux device on the home network to add to your home infra admin duties.
Itoldmyselfso 2 days ago||||
How about the abdysmal security Smart TVs either have right of the shelf or for certain after they are no longer kept up-to-date? I don't want to worry having my TV act either as botnet or spying device (many come with microphones and cameras nowadays). I rather purchase additional device that has decent security that I can attach to the TV if I need to.
wiether 2 days ago|||
For the same reason I don't want a self-heating mug.
michaelsalim 2 days ago||
Why wouldn't you want that? Genuinely curious
boerseth 2 days ago||
Modularity and separation of concerns can extend into other domains than software.

For me, it seems so much simpler to keep the two separate. You won't be forced to wash the heating element every time you wash the cup. Can't heat a different cup while the other is in the dishwasher, unless all your cups are self-heating. Normally, the only way for a cup to break is if it shatters, but with an inbuilt heater there's electronics that can break too. And should the cup shatter, now the heater is unusable too, or vice versa.

wiether 2 days ago||
Exactly!

I have to have a kettle for other purpose (including heating water for other mugs than mine), and no self-heating mug is going to be as efficient as a kettle to heat water.

Furthermore, I also put cold or room temperature liquids in my mug. With a self-heating one, I would be carrying the heating parts for absolutely no reason.

Same goes for a TV. By keeping things separated, I can decide what I do which each device and manage their lifecycle separately. If the device reading video files is included in the TV, I can't plug it to another TV or a projector or even take it with me to use it elsewhere. While I've upgraded three times my video playing device to follow tech evolution, I've kept the same TV to plug them in.

saalweachter 2 days ago||
But like, a coffeemaker is a thing.

You can make coffee with a kettle, but if you are making enough coffee often enough, it does make sense to bundle a second kettle into a dedicated coffeemaker, even if you are reducing the functionality of it by doing so.

wiether 2 days ago||
It's a thing and it's convenient as a smart TV is convenient for people who don't care much.

But as a "power user" of a TV, I want to compose my own setup.

In the same way, "power users" of coffee don't use a coffeemaker. They use things like French press.

(I use instant coffee myself in my non-heating mug so in this comparison I would be the person not owning a TV and watching everything on their phone?)

Underphil 2 days ago||||
Yeah, I'd absolutely agree here. The article didn't "miss" this option. It just isn't relevant here.
taxmeifyoucan 2 days ago|||
I feel you, that's exactly why I was using only monitors before! I got convinced to go for this as an acceptable compromise with much more control than some proprietary backend.
zeristor 2 days ago||
Begs the question, how long before smart monitors.
albert_e 2 days ago|||
I want the ability to add my own picture-in-picture display or overlay of text and other dynamic content.

Example: watching a movie but want the live score of a sports match scraped from a public website to be displayed in a corner.

OR while watching a sports match -- i want a overlay feed of text from a chat stream for a select web source

Looking forward for some public experiments / open projects in this space i could leverage. Dont have the skills to attempt it myself from scratch.

slig 2 days ago|||
> RootMyTV (v1/v2) has been patched for years, and your TV is almost certainly not vulnerable. We recommend checking whether your TV is rootable with another method.
montymintypie 2 days ago||
The one-click method has been patched, but there are other methods that will work if you haven't been religiously updating your TV:

[0] https://github.com/throwaway96/dejavuln-autoroot

[1] https://github.com/throwaway96/faultmanager-autoroot

ashirviskas 2 days ago|||
Religiously updating my TV? It has been patched since spring, someone clicking by accident "yes" for the update notice that appears randomly on the middle of the screen in the past 9 months would ruin it. I was religously *not* updating my TV and it still got too new software for the exploit :')
Retr0id 2 days ago|||
One day I will buy a new TV and develop a new one-click method... but for now I'm still rocking my B9.
whatsupdog 2 days ago|||
I have 2 LG OLED TVs, different sizes. Rootmytv failed to root both of them. I forgot which step and which error it was giving, but I tried everything including factory reset etc. I'm glad it's working for some people.
scoot 2 days ago||
The first line of the homepage says "RootMyTV (v1/v2) has been patched for years, and your TV is almost certainly not vulnerable.", so that's hardly surprising
taxmeifyoucan 2 days ago||
What I didn't mention is that I specifically looked for older TV on the second hand market to find a hackable model.

I mean, I didn't wanted to buy a brand new one anyway, it's very expensive and I don't need latest AI features. I found a year old model with firmware that was listed as supported by the jailbreak at the time

wltr 2 days ago||
I’d do exactly as you did. It’s pity it didn’t work for you. I’m on the market to buy a TV (not hurrying though), so I’m not sure what to do here. I’d like to have Dolby Vision (otherwise why would I want a TV if my computer display is good enough for everything else), so perhaps that worsens things. As otherwise I’d just pick any TV, even FullHD (not 4K), and even not smart (attaching some SBC with Kodi to the back). But ideally I’d prefer to jailbreak it and have Kodi installed without any extra device. Now I’m puzzled whether these lists of ‘compatible’ TVs are trustworthy.
amelius 2 days ago|||
For the real hackers:

https://www.panelook.com/

Global Panel Exchange Center

_pdp_ 2 days ago|||
I was thinking the same. While it is not for everyone, hacking the TV to make the dumb is possible.
jmward01 2 days ago|||
Seems like there is a big opportunity here for something a router distro to combine with a tv jailbreak. How good is the hardware? It would be nice to have my tv serve a couple purposes if it has the hardware to do it.
taxmeifyoucan 2 days ago|||
It's a modest ARM CPU, I wouldn't rely on it for a router but it can run Rpi Hole! Also Home Assistant integration, I use the TV remote to control LEDs/lights around the apartment
cess11 2 days ago||
Nice!
wolrah 2 days ago|||
Most smart TVs only have 100mbit ethernet, even "high end" TVs like LG OLEDs. They'd be terrible routers.
throwaway63467 2 days ago|||
Is there much you can do with it? Does it still work as before, does it still have a GUI? Sounds really cool.
montymintypie 2 days ago||
I think the parent commenter is perhaps a little over-selling the LG rooting. It is definitely root, you can write whatever you want on the filesystem (at your peril), and theoretically do whatever you want, but the homebrew exploit launches a bit later in the boot chain than you'd want (so blocking update nags isn't quite reliable), and a lot of the inner system things are proprietary and require reverse engineering to extend.

It's the same system software, just with root capacity.

That being said, there's still a bunch of nice homebrew:

- Video screensavers ala Apple TV

- DVD logo screensaver

- Adfree (and sponsorblock-integrated and optional shorts-disabling) Youtube

- Remote button remapping (Netflix button now opens Plex for me)

- Hyperion (ambilight service that controls an LED strip behind the TV)

- A nice nvidia shield emulator for game streaming from my PC with low latency

- VNC server (rarely useful, but invaluable when it is)

Sponsorblock and remote remapping are killer features for me, and the rest is just really pleasant to have.

andrepd 2 days ago||
How would you block ads on such a TV? The problem is you still cannot connect it to the internet without unknown privacy intrusion... Maybe to the LAN only? But then it's usefulness is still limited.
tormeh 2 days ago||
What I'd really like is a TV with DisplayPort. How is this not a thing? IIRC you cannot buy a display with DP that's larger than 45 inches, give or take - they just don't exist. I think this is really weird. Like, I'd pay an extra $100 for that port, but I'm just not allowed to have it.
ProllyInfamous 2 days ago||
I absolutely love my Aorus 48" OLED-type display (w/ DisplayPort).

I tried a 48" TFT-type television (attempting use as a computer display) and the refresh rate just wasn't there, along with typical backlight splotching (but it cost a fifth as much, so...).

My only caution is OLED can experience burn-in (unlike the smaller Aorus 45" using a VA-type panel), but it is otherwise a much better experience

heresie-dabord 2 days ago|||
Dell offers a 43" display with speakers and DP, HDMI, and USB. It costs three times as much as a TV, but it is highly-rated kit if you can afford it.

I would rather have a quality large display with speakers and DP than a TV. The only argument in favour of buying a large TV for coding is cost.

energy123 2 days ago|||
> My only caution is OLED can experience burn-in

The other limitation is lower brightness than miniLED monitors, around 30-60% of the nits in SDR. Whether that matters obviously depends on the ambient light or reflective surfaces near you.

For me, because I'm next to a big window and already squinting at my 400 nits IPS monitor, a < 300 nits OLED is a non-starter, but a 600 nits in SDR, IPS miniLED, is ideal.

This limitation should be temporary however because there are some high nit OLED TVs coming on the market in 2025 so bright OLED 27-43" monitors will likely follow.

andhuman 2 days ago||
The new LG panels are bright enough. I think they’re called 4th generation WOLED.
energy123 2 days ago||
330 nits in SDR is good relative to other OLED monitors and good enough for most indoor environments but not good enough for my indoor environment. Windows are too big and not tinted, just too much ambient light for anything below 500 nits.
t0bia_s 2 days ago|||
You can buy projector and have 120 inches screen in 160 inches wide room. And it is also unbreakable screen, useful especially if you have kids.
baq 2 days ago|||
It’s nice but OLED contrast is very hard to beat, and if you’re one of those folks who insist that ‘a white wall is good enough’ then it’s not even the same ballpark of image quality.
Dumblydorr 2 days ago|||
How far away from the screen do you need to sit though? Isn’t that too wide? I have kids but I’ve never seen them almost break a TV lol
no_wizard 2 days ago|||
As far as I am aware, after having done exhaustive research on this, its licensing costs and popularity. Display port simply isn't popular enough. The vast majority of TV manufacturers (not brands mind you, many white label their manufacturing to different brands) also make monitors, and adoption of HDMI across both tvs and monitors not only was much higher, it was overall cheaper in cost since you could share the same components across lines. This being driven by cheaper licensing costs for accessory manufacturers (like blu ray players).

Its also easier to implement, if I recall correctly

This is the essential core of it, as I have come to understand it anyway.

pityJuke 2 days ago||
Wanting to know what I'm missing r/e: licensing costs.

Wikipedia [0] states:

> VESA, the creators of the DisplayPort standard, state that the standard is royalty-free to implement.

And VESA's website [1] lists Samsung, Sony and LG as being members already, so they've already paid. What am I missing here?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#Cost

[1]: https://vesa.org/about-vesa/member-companies/

thesandlord 2 days ago|||
New Hisense TVs have USB-C DisplayPort support. Pretty cool, but realistically I don't see how it's different from HDMI from a usefulness standpoint.

Edit: It is cool I can plug my phone or laptop into the TV with one cable, no adapters, and get some power as well. For some reason it didn't work with my Steam Deck which was strange.

PaulHoule 2 days ago|||
I think it helps with the HDMI 2.1 licensing bullshit.
helterskelter 2 days ago||
This. I was reading about some of the ugly hacks Valve has had to get around to use 2.1 on the steam machine. They (HDMI consortium, whatever its called) won't let you use 2.1 if your video drivers are FOSS. Since SM has open drivers for the AMD card it's leading to subobtimal video output at certain resolution/framerate combos (4K@120fps? Something like that), and they can't legally advertise support for HDMI2.1.
godelski 2 days ago|||
And annoyingly you can do USB-C to DP but not the other direction.

I can't be the only one that hooks up my computer, with a graphics card, to my TV

oynqr 2 days ago||
There absolutely are ways to do this, some motherboards have a DP-In connector that is routed to the USB4 ports. One example would be the ProArt X670E.
ThatPlayer 2 days ago||
The cheapest one nowadays is probably the PSVR 2 adapter
Marsymars 2 days ago|||
There was the 55" Alienware OLED monitor, but unfortunately it never received a follow-up after its 2019 release.
microbass 2 days ago|||
I saw some giant TV on LTT recently which has a DP port.
kjkjadksj 2 days ago||
A DisplayPort Port you say?
mr_toad 2 days ago|||
> What I'd really like is a TV with DisplayPort.

Issues with HDCP support maybe?

watermelon0 2 days ago||
DisplayPort supports all HDCP versions, so that shouldn't be a problem.
rk06 2 days ago|||
i would really like a tv with usb c. so, i can directly connect my phone/ tablet and cast directly
MrBuddyCasino 2 days ago|||
Different tariff rates for TVs and computer monitors.
lostlogin 2 days ago|||
I tried to buy a good 32 inch tv. This is also hard. I need up going a little matter and even then, the utterly trash built in speakers frustrate the hell out of me.
drnick1 2 days ago||
32" is squarely "PC monitor" territory and there are now many good options even w/ OLED. No built-in speakers.
energy123 2 days ago||
A 32" 4k 240hz OLED computer monitor + smart TV HDMI dongle + external speakers should work fine. Only point I would check is if the remote that comes with the dongle can turn on the monitor.
EnPissant 2 days ago||
Why would you want such a thing? HDMI 2.1 does HDR 4k @ 120hz without compression. The entire TV ecosystem uses HDMI. If you want to connect a PC to a TV they always have at least 1 HDMI out, and some have a couple.
MarsIronPI 2 days ago|||
Because HDMI 2.1 uses a proprietary protocol that's not implemented in any free OS[0]. If you want to use HDMI 2.1 features right now, your only option is to use a non-free OS like Windows or MacOS.

[0]: This came up recently with Valve: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46220488

nottorp 2 days ago|||
It's also a piece of shit that will negotiate whatever it wants with your non free OS instead of giving you unmolested RGB...
no_wizard 2 days ago||||
from a purely technical point of view i do wish HDMI 2.1 was able to gain traction. On a couple of things I own that do actually use it, its an actual noticeable improvement and I feel does a better job than DisplayPort.

Granted, I suspect quite strongly the next wave of consolidation is going to continue the trend of being around USB-C, since the spec should have the bandwidth to handle any video / audio protocols for quite some time. Matter of time until that happens IMO.

It also lets you have a single cord that could theoretically be your power cord and your A/V cord.

rethinkhdmi 2 days ago||
From a purely technical standpoint display port is a better standard. HDMI couldn't get their shit together to do anything with USBC and thus all USBC to HDMI converter cables run display port internally.

Display port already allows multiple video streams, ausiostreams ... Why do we need a closed standard to also do this?!?!

MegaDeKay 2 days ago|||
Not really. That same link talks about how Intel and nvidia drivers can provide HDMI 2.1 on Linux but it is via their non-free firmware blob.

AMD doesn't (can't? won't?) do the same but there is a workaround: a DisplayPort to HDMI adapter using a particular chip running hacked firmware. That'll get you 4K 120 Hz with working FreeSync VRR.

https://forum.level1techs.com/t/it-is-possible-to-4k-120-hdr...

paholg 2 days ago|||
Some of us would like our expensive hardware to work without hacked third party dongles.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 2 days ago|||
I don't remember where,but somebody explained that the adapters also have some kind of limitation. I can't remember what but they went into deep details and the whole thing is revolting. Governments should protect open source.
willis936 2 days ago|||
Oh, I know this one. It was recently on the HN front page. Open source software stacks are locked out of high end pixel clocks.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46220488

valleyer 3 days ago||
Sceptre is not in fact "a Wal-Mart brand" but rather an independent company.

https://www.sceptre.com

Westinghouse TVs are made by a company licensing the brand, not a "Pittsburgh-headquartered company".

These seem like easy mistakes to avoid.

Isamu 2 days ago||
Westinghouse was acquired as a brand under Tsinghua TongFang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electronics

csdreamer7 3 days ago|||
This is really poor research on their part.
Animats 2 days ago||
> "Below are the brands I’ve identified as most likely to have dumb TVs available for purchase online as of this writing."

That just has to be an LLM at work.

bityard 3 days ago||
And Emerson has for a LONG time been just an American brand on the cheapest Chinese electronics your money can buy.

The whole article is pretty terrible.

chihuahua 2 days ago|||
While reading the article, I was pretty suspicious about Emerson and Westinghouse, because they sound just like Polaroid - once a solid American manufacturer, but run into the ground and then the name is licensed to bottom-of-the-barrel cheap electronics marketers. It seems strange that the article went out of its way to mention they are headquartered in Pittsburg and founded in the 1940s, like it's some respected brand with a long tradition.
hypercube33 2 days ago||||
That said my Dynex TV from like 2008 won't die so my agreement with my wife to replace it can't kick in for a 75" OLED TV...someday. Thing has a decent panel FHD and 120hz and you can turn the smoothing crap off and it's definitely a dumb TV
itomato 2 days ago|||
To say nothing of the the ads..
kevin061 2 days ago||
A while ago I had a discussion with my friends that it is possible that in the future if 5G is sufficiently cheap, smart tvs come with a 5G SIM so they can force ads and updates even if you refuse to connect it to WiFi. I wonder if this will ever be a real thing. Either 5G, 6G or whatever comes next.
Arbortheus 2 days ago||
What a horrid thought…

You might be interested to read about the findings by Ruter, the publicly owned transport company for Oslo. They discovered their Chinese Yutong electric buses contained SIM cards, likely to allow the buses to receive OTA updates, but consequentially means they could be modified at any moment remotely. Thankfully they use physical SIMs, so some security hardening is possible.

Of course, with eSIMs becoming more widespread, it’s not inconceivable you could have a SoC containing a 5G modem with no real way to disable or remove it without destroying the device itself.

[1] https://ruter.no/en/ruter-with-extensive-security-testing-of...

xg15 2 days ago|||
I fear this won't even required SIM cards. I'm worried that Apple's Find My and Amazon's Sidewalk networks are the precursors of this: They're effectively company controlled p2p networks that lets the company use their customers' internet access points like a commodity. If one customer refuses to give a device access to the internet, they could use that network to route it through the access point of another customer.

Also, personal experience: My own ISP (in Germany) experimented with some similar stuff a few years ago: They mandated use of their own home routers where only they had root access. At some point, they pushed an OTA update that made the router announce a second Wifi network in addition to the customer's. This was meant as a public hotspot that people walking down the street could connect to after installing an app from the ISP and buying a ticket.

The customer that "owned" the router wasn't charged for that traffic and the hotspot was isolated from the LAN (or at least the ISP promised that), but it still felt intrusive to just repurpose a device sitting in my living room as "public" infrastructure.

(The ISP initially wanted to do this on an "opt-out" basis, which caused a public uproar thankfully. I think eventually they switched to opt-in and then scrapped the idea entirely.)

gary_0 2 days ago||
If it had Ethernet ports I'd be tempted to just use my own wifi router and put the ISP's Trojan horse in a Faraday cage. All ISP-controlled hardware should be treated as just another untrusted WAN hop.
xg15 2 days ago||
When I signed up with them, they were actually trying to withold access to the config web UI from customers and then charge extra just to enable Wifi. My response was exactly that - "fuck that" and put my own router in front of theirs.

(That was years before the other incident - since then they had dropped that idea and "generously" given customers access to the config UI)

itopaloglu83 2 days ago|||
Add a camera and microphone, and you have yourself a utopia that can control masses.
fainpul 2 days ago||
You mean dystopia, right?
wiether 2 days ago|||
Chuck McGill was a visionary?
burnt-resistor 2 days ago||
And it will require an uncovered camera and microphone, or it won't display an image. Sony TVs already come with "optional image optimization" cameras.
JamesAdir 2 days ago||
Source about Sony?
PaulHoule 2 days ago||
As a Plex user I'd recommend a used last-gen game console as a TV source. In my AV room upstairs I've had an XBOX ONE S for a long time and more recently I got a PS4 Pro for the spare room downstairs -- both at Gamestop. I have some games for both of them but I am more likely to game on Steam, Steam Deck or mobile.

Every Android-based media player I've had tried just plain sucks, the NVIDIA Shield wasn't too bad but at some point the controller quit charging. You can still get a game console with a built-in Blu-Ray player too and it's nice to have one box that does that as well as being an overpowered for streaming.

I have a HDHomeRun hooked up to a small antenna pointed at Syracuse which does pretty well except for ABC, sometimes I think about going up on the roof and pointing the small one at Binghamton and pointing a large one at Syracuse but I am not watching as much OTA as I used to. It's nice though being able to watch OTA TV on either TV, any computer, tablets, phones, as well as the Plex Pass paying for the metadata for a really good DVR side-by-side with all my other media.

As for TVs I go to the local reuse center and get what catches my eye, my "monitor" I am using right now is a curved Samsung 55 inch, I just brought home a plasma that was $45 because I always wanted a plasma. I went through a long phase where people just kept dropping off cheap TVs at my home, some of which I really appreciated (a Vizio that was beautifully value engineered) and some of which sucked. [1]

[1] ... like back in the 1980s everybody was afraid someone would break into your home and take your TV but for me it is the other way around

wltr 2 days ago||
Do you mind elaborating on plasmas? I have entirely missed this technology, and wonder what’s about it.
Marsymars 2 days ago||
What does a last-gen game console offer over an Apple TV if you don't care about games?
joombaga 2 days ago||
A DVD/Blu-ray/CD player and a digital TV tuner.
PaulHoule 2 days ago||
I think it costs less too, whereas a new or used PS5 costs more but doesn't add a lot of value -- there are roughly 15 exclusive games for the PS5 so it's not compelling if you have a gaming PC, but it is a nice package to sit next to your TV that does a lot and can stream games from the gaming PC. Personally I like a PS4 controller better than the Apple TV thing.
joombaga 2 days ago||
The PS5 unfortunately doesn't do DVDs or CDs though.
asdff 2 days ago||
The launch edition doesn’t? I’m surprised vendors even sell a bluray drive that doesn’t have that capability. I guess sony wanted to cut every cent off they could…
AshamedCaptain 3 days ago||
Spoiler: this is Ars Technica. Obviously they suggest you to instead get an Apple TV so that you send your data to Apple and watch Apple ads instead (with the only argument being that "so far they do less ads").
shlip 3 days ago||
Yup, from the Apple TV article linked in the article[1]:

> According to its privacy policy, the company gathers usage data, such as “data about your activity on and use of” Apple offerings, including “app launches within our services…; browsing history; search history; [and] product interaction.” [...] transaction information, account information (“including email address, devices registered, account status, and age”), device information (including serial number and browser type), contact information (including physical address and phone number), and payment information (including bank details).

Yeah, sure, that's privacy, Ars.

[1]https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/06/all-the-ways-apple-t...

raw_anon_1111 3 days ago|||
Let’s see where to start?

1. Email address - you have to use an email address to have an Apple account. How are they not going to have your email?

2. Devices registered - you mean when you log into your device, they keep track of your logged in devices!

3. Transaction history - they keep track of what you bought from them!

Must I continue? Every single piece of data that you named is required to do business with them.

orwin 3 days ago|||
Browsing history? Search history? Age?

Also 'product interaction' is an euphemism to say "if you're sick, we'll sell this information for around 80€" (I think it's close to 200$ for Americans but I don't have any contact in this industry overseas). If you have a cancer and suddenly you see an increase in ads for pseudo-medicine and other scams whose only goal is to extract all the money you have left, and if lucky, your famil's money too, that's from 'product interaction'.

raw_anon_1111 3 days ago|||
So exactly how do you suppose they sync your browsing history and bookmarks between devices if they don’t store the information? And your browsing history is e2e encrypted by keys on your device. Apple doesn’t have access to your browsing history.

You can give Apple any age you want to. It’s not like it checks.

And I have no idea about the other topics you are going off on and what they have to do with Apple..

chrz 2 days ago|||
why would i want to sync everything
0cf8612b2e1e 2 days ago||||
I am so curious to learn more about this. Are there any extensive write ups of the mechanics of identification, price points, whatever? Or is it all insider baseball because it is distasteful?

Many tens to hundreds of dollars for that single datapoint is incredible. I have naively assumed we were just packaged up in aggregate and never thought more deeply than that.

What are the most valuable data? Pregnant? Wedding? Divorce? Illness? Home purchase?

jdminhbg 2 days ago|||
> Browsing history? Search history?

They want to show you things you have recently watched or looked at when you log in, rather than just random TV shows.

> Age?

You can give your kids an age-restricted account so what they watch is limited.

amelius 2 days ago||||
It should not be necessary to be tied to the vendor after you have bought the product.
AshamedCaptain 3 days ago|||
Every series you've ever watched with the Apple TV -- of course, they keep track of what you watched with them!

(/s).

raw_anon_1111 3 days ago|||
It would be a horrible user experience if it didn’t keep track of the series I’ve watched and where I was in shows so I could pick up and watch where I left off on a different device.

This isn’t the iPod days where you would sync your watch history with iTunes.

AshamedCaptain 2 days ago||
The entire point of the remark is that you can throw these pseudo-justifications for any and all forms of tracking, since "tracking all the shows you watch" is precisely the issue that motivates TFA.

At the end of the day, they could be taking screenshots of everything you do with your TV and argue it's because of some AI system that will allow you to more easily launch whatever it is you normally do at that time of the day. If you do not see any issue with that, why would you be on this thread?

raw_anon_1111 2 days ago||
No the justification for the article is TVs that track your watching no matter what you watching and selling it to advertisers.

Apple tracks what you are watching on AppleTV only.

I’m on this thread because I understand technology.

Are you saying that if you are watching something like “South Park” you wouldn’t want the service that you are watching it on to keep track of where you are in its 25 season run?

AshamedCaptain 2 days ago||
> Apple tracks what you are watching on AppleTV only.

So the solution they propose to TVs that track what you're watching is to switch to AppleTV where Apple will track what you're watching? And you still justify this somehow?

raw_anon_1111 2 days ago||
Names are confusing no sarcasm intended. I meant Apple tracks what you watch when watching AppleTV+ (the streaming service) on the AppleTV box.

How else are there going to mark what you watched and whdfd you are in a TV series?

saltcured 2 days ago|||
Man, how I wish there was a Netflix setting "omit things I've already watched", since I know they already know this.

I can't help wonder if they are just afraid of the offering looking more bare, or is this really such an uncommon desire to want to see "new to me" stuff and not repeat things?

hopelite 2 days ago|||
The only way to have privacy from the matrix is to not participate in the matrix. That’s in fact your best option. Does one have to consume the drug of movies/tv? I realize that just suggesting something coming in between the addict and their drug causes consternation, but that also makes the point more salient.
hapticmonkey 2 days ago|||
There are no ads in the AppleTV operating system itself.

The only Apple “ads” I ever see are inside the Apple TV+ app (yeah, their naming is confusing…) and it’s only for TV shows they’re promoting in their streaming service.

0ld 2 days ago|||
Apple TV is a huge Apple TV+ ad in itself. I shelved my device when my 2yo had "subscribed" to Apple TV+ by just randomly clicking around
systemtest 2 days ago|||
I installed an AppleTV recently, so I don't have much experience. But the first thing I saw after the initial setup was one/third of the display advertising a TV-show on a subscription service I had to purchase. Would that count as an ad?
ThatMedicIsASpy 2 days ago|||
A box that can't run Kodi would never be my choice.
ralfd 2 days ago|||
> Obviously they suggest you to instead get an Apple TV

I did the same last year though when I couldn’t find a good non-smart tv. Even if you don’t like the advice it is a practical solution for normies.

drnick1 2 days ago||
The Apple TV box does not have a microphone and a camera, but beyond that there is absolutely no reason to think it's any more private than a "smart" TV.
encom 2 days ago||
There's a microphone in the remote control.
flux3125 3 days ago|||
Funny how the article itself is an ad
karmakaze 3 days ago||
AdsTechnica now.
gear54rus 3 days ago||
At least we can gather and post an actual solution in the top comment.
djoldman 2 days ago||
For the tech-savvy, I'm not too worried about smart TVs. I just do this:

> If you want premium image quality or sound, you’re better off using a smart TV offline.

In the future, if they add e-sims, we'll just remove them or de-solder or whatever.

The real risk is cars: if they start not working without cell network connections.

__MatrixMan__ 2 days ago||
> we'll just remove them or de-solder or whatever

If we continue giving money to people who build malware into the products, the malware will eventually be baked in deeply enough that the rest of the device will refuse to operate if it can't phone home to the ministry of truth or wherever.

Arn_Thor 2 days ago||
That is inevitable. Too many people ship only on price and we’ll never reach sufficient mass
scosman 2 days ago|||
Offline smart TVs are great. As long as they support wake over CEC, they are close enough to a dumb display connected to an Apple TV.

I let my latest LG TV on the network, but block internet access at the router. HomeKit integration (Siri turn off tv), Chromecast, Airplay, and other local services all work, without the ability for it to phone home.

b-star 2 days ago||
I do this too, works great. Sometimes I cry remembering all the money I wasted on TV’s “smart” features but I’ll take the small win.
sfilmeyer 2 days ago|||
I feel like there's a bit of a jump from "tech-savvy" to de-soldering things on an expensive piece of home electronics. As it stands now, though, I agree that turning off the smart TV features seems to be the way to go for most people.
djoldman 1 day ago|||
Ha, yea it's been awhile since I've done that. Although if I was annoyed enough I might take one apart.
lkbm 2 days ago|||
> The real risk is cars: if they start not working without cell network connections.

Given how limited cell service is in a lot of the US, I think we're a ways off from this.

RunningDroid 2 days ago|||
Not too far off, apparently 5G modems on T-mobile's service can try using StarLink now

https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/satellite-phone-service

djoldman 1 day ago|||
I really hope so!

But also, it's unlikely I'll live long enough where keeping an older vehicle won't be an option.

yojo 2 days ago|||
I just want a panel. I’m already doing what the article suggests (running a Hisense offline with a media box), but my TV still crashes a few times a month and needs to be power-cycled/takes about a minute to reboot.

There’s just no reason for this. You have one job: Take my signal and display it. Anything else is just another place for things to go wrong.

haarolean 2 days ago||
ha good luck. they already aggressively scan and use public wi-fi networks and have everything shipped on a chonky SoC
orangecat 2 days ago|||
they already aggressively scan and use public wi-fi networks

This is commonly repeated and but as far as I can tell nobody has actually demonstrated it.

throwaway94275 2 days ago|||
there hasn't been any open wifi networks around me in over a decade and i live in a decently populated area. that's not a thing any more unless you're at a place of business and even then it's rare.
jqpabc123 3 days ago||
How I break free from Smart TVs ("smart" for the manufacturer but very dumb for the user).

Buy a cheap smart TV and run it in "store mode".

Brightness and saturation will probably be maxed out but with a cheap TV, it looks more like "normal" on a more expensive model. Hint: The main difference between cheap and expensive in some cases --- the color adjustment range is limited by software on the cheaper models.

Currently using a Hisense 4k model from Costco connected to a small mini PC --- Windows or Linux, your preference. The TV functions as nothing but a dumb display.

Use a small "air mouse" for control. On screen keyboard as needed.

Use a Hauppauge USB tuner for local digital broadcasts.

I use software called DVB Viewer to view local channels and IPTV. A browser with VPN for streaming in some cases.

In every case, I maintain full control of my data and the ability to block ads as I see fit.

ssl-3 2 days ago||
> Buy a cheap smart TV and run it in "store mode".

They aren't "cheap," but just last week I unboxed and tested 5 different Samsung S95F televisions of 4 different sizes.

One of the functions that each of them promised to perform when set to "retail mode" was to reset the picture settings every 5 minutes.

That makes retail mode a non-starter for anyone who seeks any resemblance of accuracy in their video system, at least on these particular televisions.

m463 2 days ago||
I think costco sells a 100" hisense for $1899

seems on the cheaper side and it might work like he said

silisili 2 days ago|||
> Brightness and saturation will probably be maxed out but with a cheap TV, it looks more like "normal" on a more expensive model.

That probably mimics Samsung TVs, which are popular for that reason but look like crap.

The actual best TVs, picture wise, are among the LG C series, which are surprisingly dim and unsaturated. That said, mine has held up terribly so I won't buy another. My $200 Onn looks good enough to my eyes and lasted longer.

gear54rus 3 days ago||
> Buy a cheap smart TV

Why does it have to be cheap? What if I want a killer panel without all the bs?

> Use a small "air mouse" for control

An alternative is something like 'unified remote' on it, then you can even type from your phone without any pain.

> A browser with VPN for streaming in some cases.

There is a missing piece for me here. A magic 'send my PC browser tab to this other PC connected to the TV' button. Not sure if something like this exists. It would be ideal to send all the browser context with cookies etc so that you are logged in too and can just start playing whatever you found on PC.

Any for of cast is not an option, rendering has to happen on the TV PC box.

jqpabc123 3 days ago|||
Why does it have to be cheap?

It doesn't have to be --- but you may be wasting your money if you run in "store mode".

As noted above, "store mode" will usually max out the brightness, saturation and contrast while removing user control. This looks pretty "normal" with cheaper models. More expensive ones can become overbearing.

It appears to me that in some cases, the difference between cheap and more expensive is mainly the color adjustments.

In order to take advantage of economies of scale, they may use the exact same screen panel on multiple different models but limit the cheaper ones in software so it doesn't look as "bright" and "eye catching" in the store as their more expensive "killer" model.

koolba 2 days ago||||
> There is a missing piece for me here. A magic 'send my PC browser tab to this other PC connected to the TV' button. Not sure if something like this exists.

Chromecast does exactly this and has existed since ~2010.

sandbach 3 days ago||||
> A magic 'send my PC browser tab to this other PC connected to the TV' button

You can send a tab to another device on Firefox. It doesn't come with all the browser context, but it's pretty handy.

StanislavPetrov 2 days ago|||
>There is a missing piece for me here. A magic 'send my PC browser tab to this other PC connected to the TV' button.

I use an NVIDIA shield on a dumb TV with firefox sideloaded (ad blockers, ect) for 95% of my streaming. You can import your cookies or other preferences or simply browse for content directly.

disambiguation 2 days ago||
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that KDE revived the Plasma Bigscreen project. No idea on the ETA but assuming all goes well I can see it becoming my daily driver very quickly.

https://plasma-bigscreen.org/get/

moltopoco 2 days ago||
SteamOS/Bazzite also makes it pretty easy to integrate flatpaks into its gamepad-oriented UI. I hope that leads to the development of more apps that work with a remote control or gamepad, which would then also work on Plasma Bigscreen.
pabs3 2 days ago||
Presumably locked bootloaders on smart TVs are a problem that would block usage of that project?
JayGuerette 2 days ago|
I'm confused. Every TV is a dumb TV if you don't give it your Wifi password.
lelandfe 2 days ago||
My recent TCL TV forces you agree to Google's terms and conditions, and you aren't even provided the text of what you're agreeing to unless you connect the TV to the internet.

It felt illegal.

hopelite 2 days ago||
It is technically illegal if that is how it is configured. Go get ‘em.

But kidding aside, who are we even really kidding anymore, even if you were provided the TOS would you simply not use the device of there were something in the TOS you disagreed with? How about when you’ve been using the device and all the sudden they change the TOS and force agreement as you are about to start a tv evening with the family?

The people simply accepted their enslavement, the taking of your agency, because we all allowed or were overwhelmed with it.

They take our agency through process just like they’ve taken our freedom and rights in so many different ways, just like through YC funded Flock, where treasonous mass surveillance cameras just show up over night and most here seem unaware it’s a YC company that now provides a mass surveillance network to the government and global government tightening its noose around humanity’s neck.

_dan 2 days ago|||
Yeah I have a couple of recent Samsung OLEDs and they're fine without an internet connection despite reports that they wouldn't be. If I press one of the annoying streaming service buttons on the remote it'll give me a setup popup which needs to be dismissed, otherwise they work fine, albeit without any built in streaming support.

I'd read reports that Q-Symphony (audio from the TV speakers and soundbar simultaneously) wouldn't work, but it does.

I stuck an OSMC (https://osmc.tv/) box to the back of both of them so they can play stuff from my NAS. They're not the cheapest solution and I realise Kodi/XBMC on which they're based isn't everyone's jam (I grew up with XBMC on an Xbox so it is very much mine) - but they play everything, have wifi, HDMI-CEC, integrated RF remote, and work out of the box.

Model numbers if anyone cares: Samsung QE65S95C, Samsung QE77S95F. I believe S95, S90 and S85 (at least up to F) are all very similar so they should all work but ofc ymmv.

drnick1 2 days ago||
This OSMC box looks interesting, but does it allow to run arbitrary programs like a plain Linux box? What I have in mind here are things such as VacuumTube (YoutubeTV front end), a Web browser to stream from various online sources, etc. I found KODI (as running on Linux) far too restrictive when it comes to streaming from the Internet, and the add ons to be terrible. (In particular the YouTube add-on requires an API key registered with Google, which makes it a far worse proposition than using VacuumTube anonymously.)
_dan 2 days ago|||
Yeah that OSMC box is just running Debian with their stuff coming from its own package repo. You can get a root shell. I realise I could have built something myself (and have in the past) but it's absolutely worth the money to me to get everything in a tiny package and working perfectly from day one.

I wouldn't recommend Kodi for streaming, it kinda works but the experience isn't great. I use it exclusively for playing stuff from my server full of legally acquired public domain videos (ahem).

I do watch YouTube videos on it, but I use TubeArchivist (basically a fancy wrapper for yt-dlp) to pull them onto the server first, and a script to organise them into nicely-named directories.

jwrallie 2 days ago||||
Thanks for mentioning VacuumTube, it sounds useful.

I’m using a Minix Z100 running Gnome and Kodi. I use a simple Bluetooth keyboard, the interface is clunky but it does the job. I use Samba to also share files to VNC running on iOS and Android on the same network.

I tried using fancier solutions but anything that browses content without involving directories always break for some specific content in unpredictable ways.

drnick1 2 days ago||
That has been my experience as well. So far nothing has come close to the flexibility of Gnome (upscaled) with an airmouse. I am keeping an eye on the Plasma Bigscreen project however (10-foot UI for Plasma).

An alternative could be some x86 Android TV build like Lineage, but I have not seen very convincing demonstrations that this is truly viable.

timc3 2 days ago|||
No, it doesn’t in the way you are intending. I run various utilities on them, but nothing that ever shows up in the interface/TV

I just think of them as the best solution to run Kodi for media that is on my network.

wccrawford 2 days ago|||
My 2 year old LG complained every time I turned it on that I hadn't hooked it to the internet. No way to disable it.

Now that it's connected, it shows an ad at that time, in the same way. Can't win.

somat 2 days ago|||
I think they, or at least samsungs. will happily use open wifi if they can find it.

Source, my open test network and a neighbors tv that keeps trying to phone home with it.

asdff 2 days ago||
The TV can happily connect to my neighbors printer WLAN. That is the only open wifi around. It isn’t 2008 anymore.
tastyfreeze 2 days ago|||
My Vizio wouldn't go past the "connect to internet" screen on first boot.
SoftTalker 2 days ago|||
i have a vizio which I opened up and removed the WiFi module. it never complains about the internet now.
nullhole 2 days ago||
"In the land of telescreens, the man with the soldering iron is king"
SoftTalker 2 days ago||
Did't even require that. It was a standard mini pci-e wifi card, just unclipped it and removed it from its slot.
rgovostes 2 days ago|||
A guest logged into Wi-Fi on a Vizio of mine and there was conveniently no way to disconnect/forget it without a factory reset back to motion smoothing hell.
MrMetric 2 days ago|||
Change your network name. When the TV prompts you to connect, join the renamed network. Then, rename it back so everything else can connect again and the TV can't. I can think of a few potential problems with this, but, it might work?

Or blacklist the TV's MAC address in your router settings. Didn't think of that first for some reason.

systemtest 2 days ago|||
You gave me flashbacks to my Samsung washing machine that needed a factory reset after changing my SSID. Which also reset the service life of filters and liquids and such which was somewhat of a hassle. Such a dumb design not being able to change the wireless network.
JKCalhoun 2 days ago|||
I have a Mac Mini hooked up to my TV. We never use anything mode of the TV. (Then again, I have zero streaming services, so perhaps I am not who this article is for.)
moltopoco 2 days ago|||
Neither do I, but what about YouTube? Not letting your TV manufacturer sell your watching habits is already a big win, and on macOS you can further block telemetry. A big chunk of my YouTube consumption happens through yt-dlp using a VPN provider that presumably does not cooperate with Google.
nottorp 2 days ago|||
What do you use for a remote for the Mac Mini?
JKCalhoun 2 days ago|||
Sadly, there's just a keyboard + trackpad sitting on my TV-audio console (a kind of home made speaker credenza I built years ago).

So no remote. I get up, hit the spacebar to pause/play. The audio is into a multi-channel receiver though so audio has mute/volume controls on a remote.

omgmajk 2 days ago||||
I have a Lenovo used minipc connected to mine and I just use a Logitech K400+, it runs Linux with KDE. I will never need a smart tv, or want one, for that matter.

I get that people would rather have a remote but I personally actually don't like remotes at all. My TV is basically a screen only.

nottorp 2 days ago||
Yeah the problem with a keyboard and trackpad is you need the lights on.
omgmajk 1 day ago||
I do not, but I get what you mean :)
andrewchilds 2 days ago|||
Not the parent but my family also has a mac mini to offline TV setup - just a small bluetooth keyboard/mouse and the tv remote for volume. Works well.

As far as I know there are no remotes that work with MacOS.

ivanjermakov 2 days ago|||
My LG TV is pretty dumb since the only button it has is "connect to media server" in local network.
eduction 2 days ago|||
Yup - my LG (~6 months old) works fine without my ever having given it a WiFi password.

This is what the article recommends by the way.

dawnerd 2 days ago||
some will yell at you with a notification until you give in and connect it.
Retric 2 days ago||
Return it as unfit for service.
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