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Posted by rbanffy 2 days ago

CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally(spectrum.ieee.org)
362 points | 302 commentspage 3
ursAxZA 1 day ago|
It might function as a kind of cogeneration-style buffer, but CO₂ still gets emitted in manufacturing and maintenance — and I’m not sure the volumetric efficiency is all that compelling.

Still, if we ever end up with rows of these giant “balloons,” the landscape might look unexpectedly futuristic.

pkphilip 1 day ago||
Wasn't there a plan to use concrete blocks as energy storage medium by pulling them up a little bit at a time when there is surplus power?
jvanderbot 1 day ago|
Sure, some people have proposed that, but if you calculate how much has to be lifted to get 20 MW stored (or so), it gets pretty ridiculous pretty quickly. Like "Lift the largest aircraft carrier 20 meters" silly. You have some pretty severe size/mass issues.

It makes more sense to use water + a dam, but then again, we like to use water for things besides energy storage, and we're talking about a _lot_ of water.

This gas bag is effectively the same as water+dam, except the pressure is from the tanks and the compressor creates it, vs pumping uphill to create pressure.

alexchamberlain 1 day ago||
Would this be effective at smaller volumes? Could it get down to say the size of a washing machine for use at home?
lambdaone 1 day ago||
Very unlikely. All the technologies involved work best at scale; for example, the area-to-volume ratio of the liquid gas storage vessel is a critical parameter to keep energy losses low.
rgmerk 1 day ago||
Also, parasitic losses in engines tend to be proportionally lower as the engines get bigger.

Compare the thermal efficiency of marine diesel engines to their automotive equivalents, for instance.

kumarvvr 1 day ago||
The turbines would have to spin at very high speeds at those sizes to be efficient.
SwtCyber 1 day ago||
The real question for me isn't the physics so much as ops over 20–30 years: maintenance, leakage, real-world efficiency after thousands of cycles
laurencerowe 1 day ago||
> Energy Dome expects its LDES solution to be 30 percent cheaper than lithium-ion.

Can see how this could scale up for longer storage fairly cheaply but on current trends batteries will have caught up in cost in 2-3 years.

Smoosh 1 day ago|
Aren’t CATL already producing sodium-ion batteries for about 60% the cost of lithium-ion for equivalent capacity?
laurencerowe 1 day ago||
Yeah. Maybe this tech will have a place for week-long storage and be a good buffer for wind power but I hard to see the economics working for daily cycling.
javier_e06 22 hours ago||
So much potential! Get my CocaCola on the line! Heck give me Heineken too!
fulafel 1 day ago||
There's remarkably little about the costs, given that's the main claim going for it vs the estabilished alternatives.
unsigner 1 day ago||
Peacetime technology from people who ignore the shooting war next door. Do you really want to build your energy system on huge soft targets? This looks much more vulnerable than solar arrays or battery installations to small-to-medium warheads (i.e anything from $500 FPV drones with an RPG round to $100k middle strike drones with 100 kg of payload).
lambdaone 1 day ago||
It could be made much less vulnerable by dividing the gas storage balloon structures into a set of multiple smaller structures, ideally with some further internal partitioning so a single punctured surface does not release all the gas in that structure. Everything else is as 'hard' or 'soft' as any other piece of industrial plant, and can be hardened further by putting it inside a reinforced building or set of buildings, internal redundancy etc.
ehnto 1 day ago|||
No reason this couldn't be put underground, except cost.
pmontra 22 hours ago||
Customers will evaluate the risks. Thermal power plants are an easy target too, and oil and gas pipelines. And the oil tankers, according to the news of the last weeks. By the way, nobody cares about oil spills anymore. I guess all those ships were sailing empty /s
unsigner 5 hours ago||
Of course they care about oil spills - this is why all the oil tankers in the last weeks were attacked when empty.
buckle8017 1 day ago|
So it's a compressed air facility but it's using dry CO2 because it makes the process easier and CO2 is cheap.

Not a carbon sequestration thing, but will likely fool some people into thinking it is.

So the question is, how much does it cost? The article is completely silent on this, as expected.

to11mtm 1 day ago||
> So the question is, how much does it cost? The article is completely silent on this, as expected.

Honestly considering the design overall, I feel like one could make a single use science project version of this on a desk (i.e. aside from the CO2 recharging part) for under 200 bucks. 12oz CO2 tank, some sort of generator and whatever you need to spin it that is sealed, tubing, and a reclamation bag for the used CO2.

And IMO using CO2 makes the rest of the design cheaper; Blow off valves are relatively cheap for this scenario, especially because CO2 gas system pressures are fairly low, and there's plenty of existing infrastructure around the safety margin. And I think even with blow off valves this could be a 'closed' system with minimal losses (although that would admittedly add to the cost...)

I guess I'm saying is the main unknown is how expensive this regeneration system is for the quoted efficiency gains.

riffraff 1 day ago|||
they do say

> Energy Dome expects its LDES solution to be 30 percent cheaper than lithium-ion.

buckle8017 1 day ago||
That's hardly a number.

30% cheaper than batteries from when? today? two years ago?

huge difference, 30% cheaper than lithium batteries feels like a pitch deck number from years ago to me

thescriptkiddie 1 day ago||
The tanks to hold liquid CO2 will likely be a lot cheaper than compressed air tanks because the required pressure is much lower. But they are going to loose a lot of energy to cooling the gas and reheating the liquid. I would be surprised if the round-trip efficiency is higher than 25%.
alwa 1 day ago|||
They claim 75% efficiency AC-AC [0], and they point out that there’s no degradation with time. What estimates are you using to arrive at the 25% figure?

[0] https://energydome.com/co2-battery/

thescriptkiddie 20 hours ago||
i didn't do any math tbh, i just took the 25% number from the wikipedia page for cryogenic energy storage. i assumed their efficiency would be lower of the smaller temperature differential, but maybe it will be higher because they are storing part of the energy as pressure rather than temperature
upofadown 1 day ago||||
The energy used to liquefy the CO2 is the bulk of the energy stored. They don't throw it away afterwards. The the liquid-gas transition is why this works so much better than compressed air.
thescriptkiddie 20 hours ago||
of course they are not throwing the energy away. but by using a working fluid that changes phase they are trading away energy efficiency for power density, for the same reason that steam engines are less efficient than stirling engines.
kumarvvr 1 day ago|||
Heat from compression is stored in a thermal energy storage system. Most likely something like a sand container.
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