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Posted by walterbell 1 day ago

The gift card accountability sink(www.bitsaboutmoney.com)
117 points | 102 comments
andrewaylett 1 day ago|
One thing I didn't think Patrick quite explored enough: there's a big difference between someone asking you to pay using a gift card and you asking to pay using a gift card.

The examples he gives are predominantly around giving people the option, while the scams are very much pushing a requirement.

If someone wants you to get a gift card to pay them, and won't take cash or credit? Scam. If you have a gift card already and someone's willing to accept it in lieu of cash? Probably no more likely to be a scam than any other vendor?

cedilla 1 day ago||
I completely agree. I struggle to think of any legitimate business that would allow only gift cards. Maybe some privacy oriented VPN providers?

In any case, I think this is almost a willful misunderstanding. Not only does it attack the straw man of "no one ever gets legitimately paid in gift cards", but literally the first counterexample, Paysafecard, isn't a gift card!

corgihamlet 1 day ago|||
I work with someone who does payment for adult sites etc and even though they do offer Paysafecard not a ton of revenue is generated through them, because fees for the creators are quite high and I guess it's just inconvenient.

Most people who want to spend their money just do it using credit card, bank transfer, whatever.

LorenPechtel 11 hours ago||||
And note that in the VPN situation the customer is the one initiating the transaction. I want X, the only acceptable payment is a gift card--the person buying the gift card knows that it's specifically being done to make it very hard to track the transaction. That's a very different thing than someone demanding a bill be paid via a gift card.
jonhohle 1 day ago|||
Blizzard runs several popular games where you need to buy their currency before you can buy anything. I don’t know if it’s the case anymore, but Microsoft used to require Xbox Gold to purchase games. Usually this requires locking more up than the purchaser intended to spend.
Terr_ 1 day ago||
AFAIK in most games or storefronts with a real-money exchange pipeline, the resulting units are simply not gift-able. Being unable to exchange value with other users makes it qualitatively different.

In other words, you spend regular money for company-points, but thereafter you can only spend the company points on things that cannot be transferred. While there is certainly a cynical aspect to locking up customer funds, it makes it a lot easier to handle things like fluctuating currency exchange rates, and simplifies refunds within the points-store.

nly 1 day ago||
I would never accept payment from anybody in gift cards even if I frequented the store. I would assume it's a scam.
andrewaylett 19 hours ago||
On the other hand, it's trivially true that the store which "issues" (caveat explained in the article, they don't actually issue anything themselves) a gift card will accept it as a valid form of payment.
viraptor 8 hours ago||
Not 100% safe, even then https://appleinsider.com/articles/25/12/13/locked-out-how-a-...
alwa 1 day ago||
> This is exactly the behavior that “never happens from a legitimate business” except when it does by the tens of billions of dollars.

> As Bits about Money has frequently observed, people who write professionally about money—including professional advocates for financially vulnerable populations—often misunderstand alternative financial services, largely because those services are designed to serve a social class that professionals themselves do not belong to, rarely interact with directly, and do not habitually ask how they pay rent, utilities, or phone bills.

This resonated for me, and reminded me of the way I and my formally-banked and formally-employed colleagues sometimes struggle to wrap our minds around payday lending (sure looks like usury from the security and comfort of a formal banking relationship!), remittances, hawala, pawn shops, Cash App, gift card exchanges, video game economies… for all the normative thinking in the professional classes, people sure do develop a kaleidoscopic array of approaches to storing and transmitting value.

“Just sanction [whoever]” or “just debank [whoever]” sounds to certain circles like an appealing tool to have—the modern equivalent of exile—but I have to imagine it’s probably healthy that such a tactic is hard for a state actor to apply in a totally watertight kind of way.

pjc50 1 day ago||
Rarely does it look like a clear "debank X" system; it's more like "you look suspiciously like someone who might use our systems in a crime, in a way that will cost us money and get in trouble with the law, so we're not going to touch you". Which is much harder for an innocent person to deal with.

I do think there ought to be some sort of fallback banking and account denial review process, if we're going to make it that critical to society.

alwa 15 hours ago||
I agree, that’s what makes it so insidious: it’s murky how you get flagged as risky, and you normally don’t even see the evidence (if any!), much less have a means to appeal. Which would be one thing if financial institutions’ risk decisions were independent, but they’re not—see again the inimitable @patio on this [0].

That serves the integrity of the risk-identification system by making it harder to game or evade, but we’re rightly allergic to other forms of justice meted out “because trust me, he’s probably no good…”

[0] https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/debanking-and-debunki...

er4hn 1 day ago|||
It's clear, from watching Russia fail to be completely sanctioned that this is not watertight. The question I have is: have these sanctions added a money laundering tax to doing business? How much? What is the cost of enforcing the sanctions vs the added cost and is that worth it?

I don't know if this has been explored, bit I think it's an interesting follow on to "all or nothing" watertight sanctions.

rcxdude 1 day ago|||
Yes, that's pretty much the main goal with sanctions (and things like export controls): no-one expects them to be impossible to work around, but they should impose some (ideally very large) extra costs and limit the scale. For some things this is more or less built into the regulations with de-minimis rules that tacitly cap the cost multiplier at 10x or so.
potato3732842 17 hours ago|||
On a national scale sanctions aren't there to stop a country from doing things or forcing regime change. They're there to cost enough money to circumvent that it robs them of growth over time to make them into a non-threatening poor backwater over a decades long period.

This is basically what the US did to most of its "makes actual stuff" economy over the past 50yr.

When it comes to banking laws and the like it's not about being watertight. It's about holding enough water that what leaks out is small enough you can crush it with the state jackboot without enough collateral damage to really piss people off and that the cost of circumvention is high enough that you can't make "real money" outside the law at scale.

like_any_other 1 day ago||
> struggle to wrap our minds around [..] remittances

You have family you care about back in your home country, so you send them money from your better-paid foreign job - what's confusing about that?

alwa 15 hours ago||
Nothing at all, unless you’re someone who doesn’t have family in a different country. In which case it may not have occurred to you that it’s even a thing, with its own rules and hazards and ways things are done.

Even if you’re such a person in the professional class, who sends money back to their family via formal means, you might not be sensitive to the means informally-employed people use to send money (or value) back to their families.

Any more than it occurs to you to go to a payday lender and pay $5 to get $50 today against your $250 paycheck next week, in order to make rent…

andrewaylett 1 day ago||
It's interesting (to me, at least) to see the kinds of discounts that folk apply to gift card transactions. It's not unheard of for a colleague to end up with a gift card they can't use, and while there's a real sense in which the card is worth its face value, there's also a sense in which its restricted use makes it worth less than face value. Plus, if you want to spend £x in a shop then you don't normally need to buy a colleague's gift card.
bombcar 1 day ago|
A gift card is always worth less than cash, how much depends on various factors.

At least 5% (rewards and inconvenience) but closer to 10-15% in my experience.

For a 20% discount on stores I use regularly I’ll get the gift card (usually buy $50 get $10 free).

andrewaylett 19 hours ago|||
It is, however, literally worth that amount of cash at the moment of redemption. If you were going to spend that money in that shop anyway, and you have no intent to sell the card to a third party, there's no need to apply a discount.

It's not all that surprising that "just like cash, but less fungible" should have a different valuation than "cash", but there aren't all that many things that mimic cash like that.

Larrikin 1 day ago||||
If you look on the gift card market places, like Raise, you will see many gift cards are well below face value but there are also many that are rarely below 1% value like Amazon and Walmart.
nlawalker 1 day ago|||
A $X Amazon gift card is more valuable to me than $X in cash. As in, if you gave me a choice between the two, I’d take the gift card.
bspammer 1 day ago|||
I assume you mean literal cash here. I can’t imagine anyone preferring to have $20 in their Amazon wallet over $20 in their bank account
nly 1 day ago||||
I'd take the cash. I walk past a half dozen cash machines on any given workday where I can deposit the cash in to my bank account and it'll clear and be ready to spend instantaneously.
compsciphd 1 day ago||||
the first thing I always did when I got a visa (or like) gift card (be it rebate, class action payment et al), was put it into amazon, as it was effectively cashing it out with close to zero friction.
pjc50 1 day ago|||
Why? Just the online convenience? You can take the cash and exchange it for gift cards at a shop.
nlawalker 1 day ago||
Yes, the convenience.
raw_anon_1111 1 day ago||
I have started new jobs twice once in 2023 and once last year and before my first day on the job I got a text from the CEO of the company asking me to buy gift cards for them and they couldn’t do it themselves because they were in a meeting.

They said the CEO by name and texted my number. Of course it was a scam that had nothing to do with my CEO. I wonder how they got my number?

andy99 1 day ago||
I’ve had these, they would have got the CEO from LinkedIn and my number is googleable from having resumes online. Someone is doing this reconnaissance on different companies.
raw_anon_1111 1 day ago||
That seems like a lot of work.
tpxl 1 day ago|||
LLMs are excellent at automating this work away.
pavel_lishin 16 hours ago|||
I would imagine that most of the legwork is automated.
buzer 1 day ago||
Did you confirm it was a scam? Primarily wondering if it's possible that the company itself contracted someone to do phishing test for new employees. I know there are plenty that do email version of this.
kelnos 20 hours ago|||
I got these around the same time frame. The funny thing is that the named CEO was for a company I'd left the year prior. I was still in touch with coworkers from that company, and they told me that it wasn't a training exercise by the infosec team. The infosec team had actually warned people about it after hearing about people getting those texts.
raw_anon_1111 1 day ago||||
I would hope they don’t do that before I start using my personal number.

If someone did fall for it, the potential that your employees would spend real money that they wouldn’t get reimbursed for would definitely piss a lot of people off.

buzer 16 hours ago||
If they did it I would assume they would do it in a way that the employee would need to get some information first (e.g. the amount or type of gift card) before committing to anything. Or directing to buy it from some fake web shop.
bluGill 1 day ago|||
Ceo scam is very common. Anytime someone claims to be a ceo verify! CEO is a popular target because they have power and can request weird things of employees who don't know them in normal business.
buzer 17 hours ago|||
I know. That's why I wondered if some companies had started running training exercises for the phone variants. Personally I have only encountered the email ones previously.
cortesoft 1 day ago|||
Yeah, it happened a bunch when I was working for Yahoo… it became a running joke that our CEO was desperate for gift cards
hannahstrawbrry 18 hours ago||
For as much as this article harps on the "AARP Lie" i.e. how gift cards can be used by "unbanked" customers on "alternate financial services platform" the first thing I advise seniors to do is AVOID those platforms because of the same exact lack of regulation problem. Paypal and Venmo might give you the run around when it comes to your money but banks don't have that kind of option.
defrost 1 day ago||
Simon Dean did a 14 minute break down:

Is This Australia’s Most Easily Hacked Gift Card? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBarXDL23hs

of how thieves were abusing gift cards by imaging them in stores, waiting until purchased and "holding" value, then extracting that value with a little bit of cracking bad security

rpigab 1 minute ago||
And I thought I was being paranoid when I redeemed Steam gift cards before even exiting the store.
eek2121 1 day ago||
I would not have believed for a second if stores here in my location in the U.S. did not recently begin locking up gift cards in a cage. I thought the move was quite odd, until I remembered a story that I read (possibly here?) about specific types of imaging that could see the pin behind the scratch off part.

Originally I assumed it was due to customer education/fraud, however no additional signage is posted at the stores doing this. Second thought was people must think these cards are already activated, however there is tons of text stating these things are only activated at POS.

The retailers I mentioned are nationwide. However, they've only recently began to do this, and only in a few locations that I am aware of.

endgame 1 day ago|||
https://hey.paris/posts/appleid/

This guy purchased a gift card which turned out to be dodgy, and Apple locked his entire account. So there's definitely some kind of shenanigans possible with the current supply chain.

javier2 1 day ago|||
For the past year, single chinese tourists have travelled around the country emptying stored of nearly any kind of gift card. Its some kind of money laundering scheme I think? So recently stores in affected areas started locking up gift cards, though its hard to stop as buying all gift cards isnt really illegal
gruez 1 day ago|||
>For the past year, single chinese tourists have travelled around the country emptying stored of nearly any kind of gift card.

Source?

pjc50 1 day ago|||
I wonder if that's for bypassing Chinese restrictions on getting money out of the country.
Spooky23 1 day ago||
I always felt that gift cards are the underbelly of the economy. I don’t think that’s an accident, these things are great ways to move money and pay casual labor without the red flags that cash throws up these days.
ashdksnndck 1 day ago||
One time I got a car detailed, and when I was paying at the end, I noticed that the employee was writing out a receipt and marking that I had paid with a gift card. I don’t remember if I was paying with cash or a credit card, but either way I figure some sort of tax evasion and/or money laundering scheme was happening.
Spooky23 1 day ago||
Probably skimming the till.

They return a previous customer’s transaction a refund to gift card, then take your cash and pocket it. There’s a ton of grifts like that.

Fnoord 1 day ago|||
This book [1] from 2011 by Kevin Poulsen about the carder Max Butler (alias Iceman). Runners would use his copied CCs (which he acquired via cracking into conputers) to buy gift cards in physical stores. Nowadays we got CVV (CVC).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(book)

andy99 1 day ago||
What red flags does cash throw up that are circumvented by gift cards?
toomuchtodo 1 day ago||
Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) and Currency Transaction Reports (CTRs). I’ve also noticed (perhaps this is not recent though) the max cash limit at some ATMs reduced from $500 to $400. If you purchase $1000 or more in USPS money orders, the rep will take a copy of your government identification.

https://www.occ.treas.gov/topics/supervision-and-examination...

https://www.fincen.gov/system/files/shared/CTRPamphlet.pdf

andy99 1 day ago||
How would gift cards circumvent this? Dollar for dollar I can only imagine a transaction getting more attention if done in gift cards, certainly one over 10k probably isn’t even possible
Spooky23 1 day ago|||
You buy gift cards with other purchases and pay people under the table. The gift card is cash-like for stores like Home Depot or Walmart.

You can also do stuff like get paid with someone else’s Cash App (like grandma’s) and then buy gift cards with it. If you hire “independent contractors” for casual labor or construction, many of them do that. The gift card transaction is just another CVS/Mobil purchase.

It’s not just tax evasion, sometimes they are avoiding child support or garnishments. Other times folks are just unbanked for some reason. You get blacklisted from banking you do something stupid.

gruez 1 day ago|||
It's not cash so they don't have to report it
zitterbewegung 1 day ago||
This might be why Apple Gift cards can lock you out of iCloud [1] since they are using a 3rd party. People at Apple who are intermediaries have strict rules not to unlock due to fraud and those processes can’t be undone easily?

[1]https://hey.paris/posts/appleid/

zimpenfish 1 day ago||
> It surprises many people to learn that the United States aggressively defends customers from fraud over some payment methods

I feel like that needs a "(currently but not for much longer)" caveat[0] to avoid being wildly disingenuous.

[0] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/11/11/trump-administratio... - "the CFPB [...] anticipates exhausting its currently available funds in early 2026.”

andy99 1 day ago|
What is the core argument why a gift card would ever be used instead of cash?

I can see if someone didn’t have any money and had a card and wanted to try and sell or exchange it, otherwise? Cash might have some limitations but none that are worse than a gift card.

alwa 1 day ago||
Cash requires in-person exchange. To use it electronically, you’d need to participate in the formal banking sector. Many people can’t or don’t.

Instead you can take your cash to any of a large number of retailers and acquire a card that sits outside the tight credit/debit-card regulations. That card, thanks to the wide reach of various multinational corporations, has broad (and cross-border) value and is suitable for electronic exchange. All that in exchange for a small(ish) tax (the price of the card plus whatever discount the recipient/exchange applies to its face value), and less recourse if you’re scammed or you screw up somehow.

Incidentally you might be interested in @patio’s description [0] of Japanese konbini (convenience store) payments. There, your remote payee gives you a transaction number. You take that number to your local convenience store and hand them the cash to complete the otherwise-electronic transaction.

[0] https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/payments-in-japan/#:~...

WorldMaker 18 hours ago|||
In addition to other credit/debit-card regulations, gift cards generally don't support "charge backs" (as they generally don't have the infrastructure of the full credit card system and the merchant banks) so can be in some cases used as an exploit for future fraud with the receiving vendor.
andy99 1 day ago||||
> has broad (and cross-border) value

I’m wondering if this is the primary use case and that’s why I don’t really get it? I see the online aspect, but it comes with a whole other set of problems that for most cases it’s hard to imagine are easier to deal with than exchanging cash. But a way to send money across borders without any controls I can see why that might be popular. Hard to tie that back to advice the AARP should be giving though.

antonymoose 1 day ago|||
Cash doesn’t require in-person exchange. Western Union is cheap. I grew up with poor family, that’s how they bummed money remotely.
WorldMaker 18 hours ago||
Some of the prevalence of gift cards in corporate culture is loopholes and silliness in tax codes and anti-bribery laws. Giving any cash to an employee counts as bonus income and needs tax withholding. Giving gift cards under certain values to an employee is a gift to the employee that doesn't count as income (and, worse, in some cases can be expense reported for a tax advantage as a cost of doing business, especially gift cards to restaurants where it may be assumed it is for a "business meal").

In a different direction, giving cash to a partner/vendor/competitor is pretty obvious to many laws as a bribe. Giving gift cards more resembles gifting swag or paying for a meal and is sometimes considered "allowed". Different companies have different views on that loophole, but some companies do take advantage of it. Enough companies at least did at one point that the "CEO is in a high-powered meeting and needs gift cards immediately" came from somewhere and it was probably that, wining and dining partners/vendors/competitors in "legally distinct from but quite resembling bribes".

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