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Posted by ahamez 2 days ago

Company as Code(blog.42futures.com)
261 points | 127 commentspage 5
jesucresta 1 day ago|
I feel like this is kind of missing the point that companies are mainly a group of humans and their roles and responsibilities matter to them emotionally. Managing those expectations and feelings can only be done by other humans that feel empathy (good managers) and abstracting such relationships onto something that can be "versioned, queried, tested, and automatically verified" might create a shitty soulless place to work.
richardlblair 1 day ago||
Yes - the author's observations are not wrong. Companies, on paper, are logical. However, as one professor told us in college "All companies are perfect until you introduce the humans".

Humans are messy. Humans work outside of whatever system you create. You can codify all your things all you want, it simply will not capture the operational complexity of a business run by humans.

The problem needs to be flipped on its head. LLMs give us the capacity to do just that. It's far more accurate to analyze what the humans are doing, note deviations and follow up on those where regulatory compliance is required. This captures both written processes as well as their practical implementations.

nicklucking 1 day ago||
Exactly this and its a blind spot in the article. LLM's / orchestrated specialist agents can query SOP's, policy docs, compliance docs. Having humans build these artifacts in code isn't really needed at this point. Maybe if there is an interim format LLM's can use that save tokens / time / etc. Wouldn't assume that looks exactly like exactly what human coders would have used the past though.
kukkeliskuu 1 day ago|||
Anything can be used for the good or for the bad. Defining how the organization is structured and how it operates usually is usually not about how people really do their actual work -- unless there are safety etc. regulations that must be met. Many enterprises are in constant chaos, which stresses people out. Adding some structure to it helps to alleviate that stress. For example, if there is a good template to document something, you don't have to start from the scratch. Of course, you could also go all in automate all your "management", in order to avoid talking with your employees. I don't think that will end well.
keyle 1 day ago||
You are describing essentially a healthy company.

You're on a tech news website as a reminder.

mhitza 2 days ago||
The images really detract from the subject.

I've used to do something like this, on a smaller scale and dubbed it "organization as code". As long as you have good enough providers for Terraform/Pulumi you can declaratively specify a lot of the interconnected stuff in a company.

I built this around GitHub as the indentity provider as my interest was declaratively defining repository access control, while also being able to use users public ssh keys to (re)provision services to get them access automatically.

captn3m0 1 day ago|
I've done the same thing and I would not call it anywhere near org-as-code either. An organization is much more than a list of responsibilities, people, and compliance requirements.

For the latter, we already have policy-as-code tooling that actually works.

mhitza 1 day ago||
Might be a second language thing. Organization for me is stronger related to the root word organize; label, classify, cluster, etc. than something pertaining to processes and procedures.
nickdothutton 1 day ago||
I wrote a little on this same topic, automating away compliance with evidence, back in 2018 [1]. Some might find it interesting.

[1] "A Universal Lemma For Compliance" https://blog.eutopian.io/a-universal-lemma-for-compliance/

NetOpWibby 1 day ago||
The cyclical relationship graph this article mentions is doable with Gel[1], my favorite database (the team building it recently got acquired by Vercel so the database is in community's hands now).

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[1] <https://www.geldata.com>

chickensong 18 hours ago||
It's a lovely idea of course, and I applaud anyone who manages to make progress in this area, but my condolences to all the others that have tried and failed. Perhaps the enabling tech could be improved, but we've had LDAP and the like for decades, and many orgs simply can't/won't build the business around the tech.

IMHO, the main issues are cultural, and culture change is hard once an org is established. Even new companies will face issues, because business culture at large gets carried forward through people and interactions. Good luck getting execs to learn and conform to anything, they're too busy emailing confidential Microsoft Office docs to unauthorized third parties.

Computers have the ability to provide wonderful features like transparency and accountability to orgs and business processes, but just like security, we typically choose not to invest in those areas unless forced. Perhaps AI will enable some change by providing a generic interface that brokers interactions between humans and the organization itself, analyzing all inputs before forwarding to a destination.

sidsud 1 day ago||
isn't this what HRIS/ERP systems do under the hood? or am I missing something here?
redanddead 1 day ago||
1. There are many organizations invested in keeping the disconnected status quo 2. The true things you want to connect are owned by giants that are slow and dont trust or need you 3. You need to play by the big players rules or get nowhere here
snowstorm82 1 day ago||
I have started learning cuelang and there was nice webinar style video where the GitHub policies where defined as code and deployed with terraform. I immediately thought that such thing would be very valuable at auditing.
fergie 1 day ago||
Surely, in just about every company today, all of the examples in the article are already handled by databases and SQL?
miohtama 1 day ago|
I recommend book Accelerado by Charlie Stross:

Um.” Manfred finds it, floating three tiers down an elaborate object hierarchy. It’s flashing for attention. There’s a priority interrupt, an incoming lawsuit that hasn’t propagated up the inheritance tree yet. He prods at the object with a property browser. “I’m afraid I’m not a director of that company, Mr. Glashwiecz. I appear to be retained by it as a technical contractor with nonexecutive power, reporting to the president, but frankly, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of the company. However, I can tell you who’s in charge if you want.” “Yes?” The attorney sounds almost interested. Manfred figures it out; the guy’s in New Jersey. It must be about three in the morning over there. Malice—revenge for waking him up—sharpens Manfred’s voice. “The president of http://agalmic.holdings .root.184.97.AB5 is http://agalmic.holdings .root.184.97.201. The secretary is http://agalmic.holdings .root.184.D5, and the chair is http://agalmic.holdings .root.184.E8.FF. All the shares are owned by those companies in equal measure, and I can tell you that their regulations are written in Python. Have a nice day, now!”

Multicomp 1 day ago||
thanks for the recommendation, I've put a hold on it for my library now.

This article reminds me of another book [1] called Holacracy where how a business is run is systematized according to other pre-defined principles. David Allen, a productivity trainer, used it at his own company for several years before eventually moving away from it because the ongoing overhead to keep its system up was too much.

I wonder if this system will end up like that as well. I love the idea, but I think humans operate at a squishier level than our computers do, there's a risk of 'massive bureaucratic dehumanization and inflexible processes' and the Iron Law of Organizations that make such efforts as that book and this article fraught with peril. Taylorism has its limits.

But hey, if this works, I'll be excited to see more businesses adopting better practices and less painful fumbling around trying to do practices in an organic or unplanned way.

[1] https://www.holacracy.org/blog/dac-ceo-reflects-on-holacracy...

AceJohnny2 1 day ago||
Accelerando's algorithmic company structure and (near?)DDoS the corporate legal system is the one idea from Accelerando that has stuck with me the most over the 20 years since I first read it, and I came here to make the exact same reference.

(that, and the notion of Exocortex, which is what I've named some of my smartphones...)

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