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Posted by spzb 3 days ago

How far back in time can you understand English?(www.deadlanguagesociety.com)
469 points | 257 commentspage 6
aardvark179 12 hours ago|
That is superbly done. I can go further back than some here, 1300 is fine, 1200 I can mange okay, but 1100 takes real effort.
snickerer 10 hours ago||
Could they hunt down the werewolf wizard and defeat him or not?? I need to know how this ended.
amarant 13 hours ago||
Is it weird that the 1900 style is closer to how I typically write than the first 2000 style? I'm not that old, am I?
zamadatix 10 hours ago||
The difference between 1900 and 2000 seems to largely be the voice/intended audience changing rather than the language.

I.e. the 2000s one is a casual travel blog style intended normally intended for any random quick reader and the 1900s one is more a mix of academic sounding/formal conversation intended for longer content. If you assume a more casual voice in the 1900s one and a more formal voice in the 2000s one I bet they'd even almost seem to be placed backwards chronologically.

layer8 12 hours ago||
The 2000 sample was a bit exaggerated.
opengrass 14 hours ago||
1500

Dutch is 1400s English.

throwaway3060 15 hours ago||
I can get through 1300 with some effort, but from 1200 I get nothing. Just a complete dropoff in that one time frame.
ajb 14 hours ago||
Yeah same. The explanation at the bottom is interesting, lots of the words imported from Normandy drop off then, and the grammar changes more significantly.
NooneAtAll3 10 hours ago||
I think people see "The blog ends there. No sign-off, no “thanks for reading.”" and stop reading everything after that xD
ajb 9 hours ago||
Yes, I nearly missed it myself
antonvs 14 hours ago||
I was able to get the gist of 1200, with some effort. By paragraph:

P1: Unclear, but I think it's basically saying there is much to say about all that happened to him.

[Edit: the more I stare at it, the more sense it makes. "There is much to say about all that ? was wrought on me, ???. I shall never forget it, not while I live!"]

P2: Unexpectedly, a woman ("uuif", wife) appeared at "great speed" to save him. "She came in among the evil men..."

P3: "She slaughtered the heathen men that pinned me, slaughtered them and felled them to the ground. There was blood and bale enough and the fallen lay still, for [they could no more?] stand. As for the Maister, the [wrathe?] Maister, he fled away in the darkness and was seen no more."

P4: The protagonist thanks the woman for saving him, "I thank thee..."

On first reading, I didn't know what "uuif" was. I had to look that one up.

adrian_b 14 hours ago|||
That older spelling is the reason why "w" is called "double u".

Had the word been written "wif", I don't think that there would have been any need for you to search the word, as the relationship with "wife" would have been obvious.

Between then and now, in this word only the pronunciation of "i" has changed, from "i" like in the European languages to "ai".

coolcoder613 8 hours ago||||
Same here, pretty much. I was able to get to 1200 without much difficulty but 1200 took a lot of effort to decipher.
antonvs 13 hours ago|||
Also I loved this little discovery, from 1300:

> "Þe euele man louȝ, whan that he sawe my peine, and it was a crueel louȝter, wiþouten merci or pitee as of a man þat haþ no rewþe in his herte."

"The evil man laughed, when he saw my pain, and it was a cruel laughter, without mercy or pity as of a man that has no rewthe in his heart."

In other words, a rewthe-less man.

We've retained the word "ruthless" but no longer use the word "ruth", "a feeling of pity, distress, or grief."

LAC-Tech 7 hours ago||
SPOILERS: if you give the last section, from 1000 AD, some more modern orthography, and applying a few modern sound changes, it may start to look more understandable.

___

The original:

And þæt heo sægde wæs eall soþ. Ic ƿifode on hire, and heo ƿæs ful scyne ƿif, ƿis ond ƿælfæst. Ne gemette ic næfre ær sƿylce ƿifman. Heo ƿæs on gefeohte sƿa beald swa ænig mann, and þeah hƿæþere hire andƿlite wæs ƿynsum and fæger.

Ac ƿe naƿiht freo ne sindon, for þy þe ƿe næfre ne mihton fram Ƿulfesfleote geƿitan, nefne ƿe þone Hlaford finden and hine ofslean. Se Hlaford hæfþ þisne stede mid searocræftum gebunden, þæt nan man ne mæg hine forlætan. Ƿe sindon her sƿa fuglas on nette, swa fixas on ƿere.

And ƿe hine secaþ git, begen ætsomne, ƿer ond ƿif, þurh þa deorcan stræta þisses grimman stedes. Hƿæþere God us gefultumige!

___

Applying the following changes mechanically (which I often do in my head when I see a un-familiar word in old english)

ģ = y, ċ = ch, sw = s, ƿ = w, p = th, x = sk,

we get:

And thæt heo sæyde wæs eall soth. Ich wifode on hire, and heo wæs ful shyne wif, wis ond wælfæst. Ne yemette ich næfer ær sylche wifman. Heo wæs on gefeoghte sa beald sa æniy mann, and theah wæthere hire andlite wæs wynsum and fæyer.

Ac we nawight freo ne sindon, for thy the we næfer ne mighton fram Wulfesfleote yewitan, nefen we thone Laford finden and hine ofslean. Se Laford hæfth thisne stede mid searocræftum gebunden, thæt nan man ne mæy hine forlætan. We sindon her sa fuglas on nette, sa fiskas on were.

And we hine sechath yit, beyen ætsomne, wer ond wif, thurgh tha deorcan stræta thisses grimman stedes. Wæthere God us yefultumige!

__

My translation attempt:

And that which she said was all true. I made her my wife, she was a very beautiful woman, wise and steadfast when dealing death[0]. I had never met such a woman before. She was as brave in a fight as any person, yet her appearance was winsome and fair.

But we were no longer free, because we could neaver leave Wulfleet, even though we found the lord and slew him. The lord had bound this town with sorcery, such that no one could leave it. We were trapped like birds on a net, like fishes are by a man.

And we searched yet, being together, man and wife, through the dark streets of this grim town. God help us!

___

[0] my best attempt at translating "ƿælfæst"; it's like slaughter + firm/fast/stable. I guess it means she is calm while killing people :))

npilk 14 hours ago||
This is cool, I love the concept.

I wonder how much our understanding of past language is affected by survivorship bias? Most text would have been written by a highly-educated elite, and most of what survives is what we have valued and prized over the centuries.

For instance, this line in the 1800s passage:

> Hunger, that great leveller, makes philosophers of us all, and renders even the meanest dish agreeable.

This definitely sounds like the 1800s to me, but part of that is the romance of the idea expressed. I wonder what Twitter would have been like back then, for instance, especially if the illiterate had speech-to-text.

mmooss 14 hours ago||
I'd love to see actual, authentic material that was rewritten through the years. One possibility is a passage from the Bible, though that's not usual English. Another is laws or other official texts - even if not exactly the same, they may be comparable. Maybe personal letters written from or to the same place about the same topic - e.g., from or to the Church of England and its predecessor about burial, marriage, or baptism.

The author Colin Gorrie, "PhD linguist and ancient language teacher", obviously knows their stuff. From my experience, much more limited and less informed, the older material looks like a modern writer mixing in some archaic letters and expression - it doesn't look like the old stuff and isn't nearly as challenging, to me.

dhosek 14 hours ago|
Some early English translations of the Bible were unintentionally comical, e.g., “and Enoch walked with God and he was a lucky fellowe.”

Of course that’s not limited to the 16th century. The Good News Bible renders what is most commonly given as “our name is Legion for we are many” instead as “our name is Mob because there are a lot of us.” In my mind I hear the former spoken in that sort of stereotypical demon voice: deep with chorus effect, the latter spoken like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

BoredomIsFun 15 hours ago||
I am an ESL, but I can easily comprehend 1600. 1500 with serious effort.
Dwedit 15 hours ago|
At 1400, they add in the thorn "þ". If you don't know that's supposed to be "th", you'll get stuck there.
BoredomIsFun 14 hours ago||
No, not that. The endings are different, the verbs are substantially different. AFAIK invention of printing had generally stabilizing effect on English.

It is not that I am incapable to understand old English, it is that 1600 is dramatically closer to modern than 1400 one; I think someone from 1600 would be able to converse at 2026 UK farmers market with little problems too; someone from 1400 would be far more challenged.

dhosek 14 hours ago|||
Not to mention that there are pockets of English speakers in Great Britain whose everyday speech isn’t very far from 17th century English. The hypothetical time traveler might be asked, “So you’re from Yorkshire then, are you?”
adrian_b 14 hours ago|||
The invention of printing had a stabilizing effect on all languages, at least of their written form, because for some languages, especially for English, the pronunciation has diverged later from the written form, but the latter was not changed to follow the pronunciation.

I have read many printed books from the range 1450 to 1900, in several European languages. In all of them the languages are much easier to understand than those of the earlier manuscripts.

ghaff 13 hours ago|
It's probably roughly Elizabethan English (1600s).
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