Posted by ColinWright 17 hours ago
- that I just have "work email verified" and that there is a Persona thing I was not even aware of
- a post by Brian Krebs at the top of my feed, exactly on that topic: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bkrebs_if-you-are-thinking-ab...
Of course, that works probably because my work has a linkedin account so they know what the official domain is for it.
I guess they'll spam that email but it's not like I care. I already receive spam offering me subcontracting services so I guess it's published somewhere.
And the content is the worst trash you'll find online, bottom of the barrel.
If LinkedIn asks me to verify then I'll just leave. I'd be very happy for it to fall over anyway so there is space for a new more ethical platform. Especially since Microsoft acquired it, all bets are off.
> Let that sink in. You scanned your European passport for a European professional network, and your data went exclusively to North American companies. Not a single EU-based subprocessor in the chain.
LinkedIn is an American product. The EU has had 20 years to create an equally successful and popular product, which it failed to do. American companies don’t owe your European nationalist ambitions a dime. Use their products at your own discretion.
Of course an American company is subject to American law. And of course an American company will prioritise other local, similar jurisdiction companies. And often times there’s no European option that competes on quality, price, etc to begin with. In other words I don’t see why any of this is somehow uniquely wrong to the OP.
> Here’s what the CLOUD Act does in plain language: it allows US law enforcement to force any US-based company to hand over data, even if that data is stored on a server outside the United States.
European law enforcement agencies have the same powers, which they easily exercise.
No they don’t, not in the way that is implied here. A German court can subpoena German companies. Even for 100% subsidiaries in other European or non-European countries, one needs to request legal assistance. Which then is evaluated based on local jurisdiction of the subsidiary, not the parent. Microsoft Germany as operator is subject to US law and access. See Wikipedia “American exceptionalism” for further examples.
I can see not everybody here will agree with me, but I find this take absolutely reasonable. The European space has the capacity and the resources to create a product that replaces something as trivial as Linkedin, and yet it takes the lazy approach of just using American products.
It's the same thing with China's manufactured products, at some point the rest of the world just accepted that everything gets done in China and then keep complaining about how abusive China can be.
The most recent issue is the military question. Europe relied for decades on the "cheap" protection of the USA. Now the USA gave the middle finger to Europe and Europe acts shocked, but Europe is not so shocked when it comes to the military budget it did not spend on self defense during all the time the Americans provided protection.
Fully agree. Europe expects some kids from nowheresville Tennessee to die in a ditch defending Ukraine. The war will be over the second they need to draft 18 year-olds at scale from anywhere in western Europe to go defend "Europe". Nobody in France will die defending Poland, nobody in Greece will die defending Latvia. The EU is such a joke.
Did you read the article? It's a dark pattern. It is an act that takes 3 minutes to perform. Yet it takes multiple days of reading legal documents to understand what actually happens. I would argue this feels wrong, to most people who interact with technology.
We have a set of laws here that companies are obliged to follow, regardless of where they are incorporated, so we expect that. We are used to having some basic human rights here, perhaps unlike most Americans these days.
Data processes and ownership of biometric data should be made explicitly clear. It shouldn't take days of reading to understand. It feels wrong to me too.
> Do you genuinely believe you are superior to the rest of the world?
This assertion wasn't made, in any way, by the person you're replying to, and it sounds as though it's being asked in anger. This entire conversation has been about data privacy and stewardship. The OP has pointed out, correctly, that there's nothing that has prevented a EU based professional social network from existing in a way that is satisfying for EU based data policy.
If you sign up on an American website, you've decided to do business with Americans in America. Why are you entitled to something that the people you are doing business with are not subject to?
If you don't vote, you don't count.
Regardless of the fact that LinkedIn is an American company, it is required to comply with the GDPR when operating within the European Union. I am not a lawyer, but I don't believe that there is evidence of full compliance here.
American companies "complying" with is only required insofar as the EU authorities can do anything about it - and that's the same dynamic that exists across all geo boundaries on the internet, that's not specifically American - see China and its great firewall. If an American company is taking steps to be in compliance with GDPR, it's because there is benefit in doing so.
WRT GDPR, I'd ask a clarification before continuing - you said "operating within the EU" - what does that mean? If I deploy a website, from America, onto American servers, and you can reach them from within the EU, am I "operating within the EU"? I'm not trying to be coy by asking this, I actually don't know the extent to which I agree or disagree with you.
While OP is quite aggressive here, there is a nugget of truth: innovation doesn't happen because "we have the best lawyers" or "the best regulations". Maybe some self-criticism would be warranted to solve the problem.
Also nothing forces Europeans to use LinkedIn. I deleted my account long ago after getting search requests from NSA-adjacent private intel companies.
Below you can find the relevant GDPR excerpt. But before that, let me add to the coment below that US companies only comply with what EU institutions can enforce and what suits them; which is normal, since China does the same. Well, it couldn’t have been said better: in fact, we’re beginning to view you the same way we view China. And China innovates a lot, right?
"Article 3 – Territorial scope (GDPR)
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processing takes place in the Union or not.
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union, where the processing activities are related to: (a) the offering of goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the Union; or (b) the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union.
This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data by a controller not established in the Union, but in a place where Member State law applies by virtue of public international law."
You speak about China: their government is very eager to favor local alternatives, which helps fund the local ecosystem.
In contrast, Euro countries don't generally procure office software from elsewhere than US companies (especially, Microsoft). It's always talk, talk, when the time for action comes, everyone looks at their shoes and signs the contract from the US company.
Even the European commission does the same, and filed a lawsuit against their own regulatory body after it pointed out that MS Office 365 wasn't fully compliant with the EC's own privacy rules! Rules for thee, not for me, as always with the EC.[0]
So yeah, regulations and laws don't replace political will and action. Especially when we talk about the EU, where hypocrisy and lobbying is at its highest.
[0] https://www.freevacy.com/news/official-journal-of-the-europe...
The scenario being portrayed is one in which the law of the strongest prevails over the rule of law. As a European, coming from the continent that gave birth to the rule of law, I find all of this appalling. And I am sorry to hear that a fellow European thinks along the same lines. I don’t believe this is realism; rather, it is surrender.
Guess who holds the guns that protect Europe right now? So yeah, either comply, leave (what I did), or create an alternative. The EU had Viadeo[0], it could have pushed it to have an alternative. It didn't.
I view the dynamic from the opposite direction. You might think that that the EU is starting to view America the same way it views china, but in actuality the EU is starting to behave more like China. The wheels of a great firewall for the EU have been turning for some time already.
Listen, I'm truly sorry to be so direct but you sound like exactly the kind of person that needs to hear this.
> Europe does not lack capable lawyers or regulatory expertise. I will be forwarding the relevant material to contacts of mine working within the European institutions in Brussels.
Who do you think - between the current US government and the kinds of global, powerful tech behemoths being discussed in this article - gives a single flying fuck about more European lawyers and more European regulation? You literally didn't get the first thing about the point I made. You perfectly played out that classic trope we've all come to know. How about instead of lawyers and regulation Europe actually produces a successful competitor that challenges LinkedIn in any successful manner? What makes you think an army of lawyers and some more regulation are going to change simple, obvious facts about Europe's decline in productivity, innovation, etc?
Listen. The reason not a single worthy competitor has come out of Europe is because Europe just doesn't have what it takes. And it never will have what it takes, because the mindset is exactly what you're demonstrating here: EU is not out to actually build anything useful, it's about hiring armies of lawyers and creating paperwork and regulation nobody has asked for. Your funds and money should go to technology, competitiveness, tech education - not this lawfare nonsense. The EU right now doesn't have the right people, the work ethic, the funds, the innovation, the will to challenge and dream big, the incentives to bet big on tech. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it. But please, tell us more about how we need a bit more lawyers twiddling their thumbs on the tax payers' bill.
You need to understand something quickly: Europe depends sorely on the US and China. You don't change that through lawyers. Europe is behind on every front.
The reason we didn't was critical mass. Everyone was already on linkedin and there wasn't really a reason to pick something else until the US started becoming a nuisance. It's marketing, not technical.
I'm sure an EU alternative will come up now that the US is no longer a trustworthy partner. A lot of people like myself now have ethical issues with using american products (especially from big tech) and there's a lot of demand for EU-local stuff that wasn't there before.
This is all hot air. If it's so easy to build, it would've been built by now. I bet you that there won't be a single successful European LinkedIn competitor - not for the past 20 years, not now, and not for the next 20. Europe is fundamentally at a deep state of decay at every level. The only way anything might be built, is by banning the competition. At which point you might as-well just forget about a social network for professionals entirely, because you're probably working at a gulag and there's no job hopping to be done anyways :)
I guess Americans wouldn't like to buy from Nazi Germany in 1942 and so do I with buying US-American in 2026
This all seems to miss the point, which is: why does the US create so much stuff that Europe doesn't? Turning that useful reflective question into an attack on Americans sounds perfect if you want to refuse to work it out and change accordingly.
Because the US had so much venture capital, during the time of the low interest rates it was basically free money so they could afford to throw it to the wall and see what sticks. 90% of them would sink but it didn't matter. That doesn't fly here.
Then, they used that money to subsidise adoption, and then once the users were hooked into rent extraction as the OP mentioned. We call this process enshittification these days, and it's a really predatory business practice.
European companies don't do that as much because we have more guardrails against it, and more importantly we didn't have random cash sloshing up the walls. American could do that especially because of the petrodollar. Once the dollar loses its international status it will be a lot harder to do (and it already is due to the rising interest rates).
It was no surprise that exactly with the rising interest rates all the companies started tightening up their subscriptions. Netflix, amazon, all exploding in cost and introducing ads. Same with meta's platforms.
Military is just for defence against baddies and liberating countries from dictators etc
Yes or that using strength to one's advantage is necessarily bad.
Oh please.
So true.
There's a lot of passive-aggressive anti-US rhetoric and fearmongering on HN at the moment, while America is simply doing what it's always done - innovating and thriving.
As a European, I wish our continent was able to be more like America, as opposed to jealously coveting its outcomes.
As a fairly vociferous eu person....I fully agree.
However, gdpr covers all eu residents, so if US companies don't want to obey eu law, that'sa fine, too.
LinkedIn doesn't need to obey to EU law. It needs to obey to American law, which allows LinkedIn to do business with anybody (other than people from sanctioned countries) whilst complying with US law. EU's laws don't matter in the US. The EU can sue LinkedIn, but LinkedIn can just safely ignore any lawsuits and ignore sanctions, because they are an American company subject to American laws.
EU citizens are willingly subscribing to an American service, then complain the American service doesn't abide by EU laws. That's laughable at every level, to any individual with a modicum of intelligence. If you don't agree to the terms, don't use LinkedIn. You are not entitled to anything.
"Designated Countries. We use the term “Designated Countries” to refer to countries in the European Union (EU), European Economic Area (EEA), and Switzerland."
"If you reside in the “Designated Countries”, you are entering into this Contract with LinkedIn Ireland Unlimited Company (“LinkedIn Ireland”) and LinkedIn Ireland will be the controller of your personal data provided to, or collected by or for, or processed in connection with our Services."
"If you live in the Designated Countries, the laws of Ireland govern all claims related to LinkedIn's provision of the Services" "With respect to jurisdiction, you and LinkedIn agree to choose the courts of the country to which we direct your Services where you have habitual residence for all disputes arising out of or relating to this User Agreement, or in the alternative, you may choose the responsible court in Ireland."
Source: https://www.linkedin.com/legal/user-agreement
I'm not sure from where you got your information.
According to LinkedIn, they have over 2,000 employees in Dublin alone.
> LinkedIn doesn't need to obey to EU law.
This is false. A company must follow the law of the jurisdictions where it operates.
Yes, they do.
> If you don't agree to the terms, don't use LinkedIn.
We agree on that.
LinkedIn Ireland Unlimited Company Wilton Place, Dublin 2, Ireland
Claiming "the EU had 20 years to build an equally successful product" is the geopolitical equivalent of a deeply dysfunctional 1950s household. For decades, the husband insisted he handle all the enterprise and security so he could remain the undisputed head of the family. Then, after squandering his focus on a two-decade drunken military bender in the Middle East, he stumbles home, realizes he's overextended, and screams at his wife for not having her own Silicon Valley corner office, completely ignoring that he was the one who ruthlessly bought out her ventures and demanded her dependence in the first place.
America engineered a digitally dependent Europe because it funneled global data straight to US monopolies. To blame Europeans for playing the exact role the US forced them into is historical gaslighting. And pretending the CLOUD Act's global, extraterritorial overreach is the same as local EU law enforcement is just the icing on the delusion cake.
A Microsoft official explained during a french parliamentary session that he couldn't guarantee that the State data was safe from US requests. It created a shockwave, as everyone discovered what was evident from the start.
Of course, nothing happened, and they renewed every contract since then. We could talk about the F35 procurement.
This predates Trump II by the way, they did have more foresight than a lot of EU institutions.
Things have changed for sure but big ships take long to turn.
La suite is a lot bigger than that. And parts are actually being used already. They recently started using the meeting component called visio.
And where's all of this evidence of this hidden extraordinary European talent and ability that just needs to be unleashed given some more lawyers and regulation?
This is a joke.
America wanted a weak Europe, to be dependent on them so they would have geopolitical influence. They basically bought influence. They didn't want us to have nukes to defend ourselves from the Russians (the French are frowned upon and the British don't really have their own, they are beholden to the US). It also gave them a huge market for their products and services (and no there was no imbalance if you take services into account which Trump doesn't).
Then Trump comes and complains that we're not investing equally. Well no, but this was exactly as his predecessors designed. Now we will build it up but of course we will need to build our own nuclear umbrella and we will no longer give the US its influence it previously had, obviously.
We also don't need quite as much military expenditure anyway because we're just looking to defend ourselves, not trample oil-producing countries. The only times we did that were exactly due to the US' bought influence.
100% in agreement
> To blame Europeans for playing the exact role the US forced them into is historical gaslighting.
Hear hear
On the other hand I see many people posting in official capacity for an organization without verification.
When they actively represent their current company but with a random verification from a previous one it gets pretty absurd.
In its current form LinkedIn verification is pretty worthless as a trust signal.
"Your European passport is one quiet subpoena away"
Why does the subpoena need to be quiet? If I search my chats with ChatGPT for the word "quiet", I get a ridiculous number of results. "Quietly this, quietly that". It's almost like the new em dash.
There's many others all over this blog post I won't bother calling out.
"Understanding what I actually agreed to took me an entire weekend reading 34 pages of legal documents."
Yeah I'll bet it did. Or it took an hour of back and forth with ChatGPT loaded up with those 34 pages.
I get it, we all use AI, but I'm just so tired of seeing the unmistakable mark of AI language all over every single thing. For some reason it just makes me think "this person is lazy". The CEO of a company my friend works for used Claude to write an important letter to business partners recently and we were all galled at her lack of awareness of how AI-sloppified the thing was. I guess people just don't care anymore.
When people leave in things like staccato language and Blogspot era emphasis, I feel like I might as well copy the Persona privacy policy and prompt my own AI(s) on the topic and read that instead.
That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that line. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with using AI to help decipher large legal documents, just be honest about it.
There's so many angles of grind with this kind of thing that big tech has gradually normalised.
We regulated innovation out of the market. Why are you surprises that the only companies finding your data valuable are in the US?