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Posted by surprisetalk 8 hours ago

Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective(worksinprogress.co)
256 points | 409 commentspage 2
DontBreakAlex 4 hours ago|
YES! I moved to SF from Paris (where I spent my whole life before that) a year ago. I exclusively use lime instead of public transit because of how slow it is! Going from Folsom&8th to Mason&Girard takes 50 minutes! And you spend most of the time stopped! With a lime I can usually get there in 20 to 25 minutes. I would use my own bike that I use to commute to work if you could lock a bike without getting it stolen almost immediately.
IshKebab 4 hours ago|
Folding bikes are the answer there IMO. You can just bring it into the office. You can get pretty good electric ones too now (probably a requirement for SF).
DontBreakAlex 4 hours ago||
I can already bring my regular bike in the office. The problem is when you're meeting with friends, going to a restaurant, well anything that's not commuting to work...
mattlondon 2 hours ago||
Yep this is a "problem" with buses in London. They stop all the time so you never get beyond about 15mph before you start slowing down again for the next stop. The 100% EV buses are better as they accelerate faster, but not by much.

They are starting to introduce "superloop" buses that interlink the more suburban "spokes" for tube & train so you can go "across" London without having to go to the centre and then back out again. I.e. basically express buses that only stop at tube & train stations and other major interchanges.

It is a great idea, but it has been done for political and ideological reasons. They have not introduced express buses for people who work in central London for example (so instead to get to central London on a bus from a suburb means stopping every hundred meters or so, so even with bus lanes progress is brutally slow). These buses going "across" are not actually that useful for most people I expect because people using transport for high-paying central London jobs will be going "in" not "across". It is the "working class" lower paying jobs that might benefit from sideways interconnects between the suburbs - this is the ideological/vote-buying reason they've introduced them.

forthwall 7 hours ago||
I always bemoan the extra stops when I'm on the bus but I love always being near a bus stop; I do think the limited/skip stop bus idea is good though, as long as theres ones that alternate, though I do also like frequency, so hopefully service remains the same. I think though, more frequency beats speed though
jghn 7 hours ago|
As always, it's a careful balance. And specific to every bus route/stop combination, not to mention it can change over time. Routes should always be evaluated based on ridership data, where people are getting on & off, how long each stop actually delays the overall journey, and more.
AndrewDucker 2 hours ago||
So removing the bus stops costs you 2 1/2 minutes of walking (150 seconds). And gains you 20 seconds per stop removed that you pass. Therefore you need to pass 8 removed stops to break even. Which seems like quite a commute to me.

I agree that low-stopping services are a good idea. Particularly in the suburbs. Use the high-stopping services to get people to the low-stopping services - and let them change buses for free/cheap. But I think that you still need regular stops, particularly if you are dealing with elderly people. And that in the middle of cities it's totally worth having a lot of stops, so that people can easily find one.

n8cpdx 2 hours ago||
I’m surprised at the chilly reception to this article.

I ride bus and MAX (light rail) in Portland and despite not being the worst offender, too frequent stops is quite noticeable. When the bus stops every two blocks to let one person on or off each time, it really slows things down.

You can also notice when playing Cities Skylines. It is quite intuitive that making your transit stop constantly is not efficient.

On the rail system, the system has been closing redundant stations and it has made it feel much faster. Small adjustments can make a big difference.

Sure I’d like more transit investment, but that can be paired with using resources well.

helle253 7 hours ago||
I live on the north side of Chicago and, to be honest, one of my favorite modes of public transit is the express buses that go from Edgewater/Uptown to downtown.

It's MUCH faster than the train, because once it hits the highway, it doesn't stop till it gets downtown.

Dont get me wrong I love the train, but the red line suffers from the same too-many-stops problem.

Express buses thread the needle imo precisely because they hook into existing infrastructure (highways) and still move masses of people

michaelmrose 6 hours ago|
Good point but the solution you are describing is having a tiny minority of busses that move quickly between centers of activity faster rather than decreasing the stops on the vast majority of the line.
heyitsmedotjayb 7 hours ago||
I think this kind of thing is a bigger problem than people realize. I take a regional commuter bus to and from my local international airport when I fly. The huge bus has to slowly and carefully enter my local universities 'bus loop', making several tight turns through traffic lights to get to the bus stop, and then make the journey out again. It takes 10-15 minutes in traffic to move the bus ~200feet from the boulevard to the bus stop and back to the boulevard again.
francisofascii 6 hours ago||
Yep, this is a good example of the stops that really slow down bus routes. You have situations where you have to make a stop, like for a big university, but it's not feasible to simply drop people off on the side of a busy/high speed road.
skywhopper 7 hours ago||
This sounds more like that the stop is just very poorly designed than that there need to be fewer stops.
heyitsmedotjayb 5 hours ago||
I mean yes. But it has more to do with the design and attitude of bus route planning than whether or not a single stop is mis-designed, or whether there are too many stops overall. A rail line wouldn't have this problem because its clearly ridiculous and impossible to route tracks into a tight loop - the built environment in that case would accommodate the limitations of the rail, and the station would be built 200 feet away from the door. Since busses have the freedom to loop around mindlessly, the built environment refuses to accommodate them.
benleejamin 7 hours ago||
(Anecdotally) reliability is a huge factor for me — living in NYC, there are a few neighborhoods that would be much easier to reach by bus, but arrival times can vary by more than the length of the entire trip. Easier to just take a subway, even if it means an extra ten minutes of walking on each end.
kaitai 6 hours ago||
The article says, "This pattern, of only those without good alternative options riding the bus, is especially pronounced in the US. But close stop spacing creates problems." But it does not address the point. The bus in the US is aimed at poor, elderly, and disabled people. Elderly and disabled people want stops closer to their homes, especially given the low overall density of bus lines.

The US has a lot of competing problems, and underinvestment in poor people and health support is one that collides with public transit.

One thing I've realized in the US is that because of our inequality, people strive hard to earn and buy their way out of misery in a way that is not necessary in large parts of Europe. So in the US we work very hard to earn money to pay for big cars to drive through the suburbs so that we don't have to see homeless people sleeping on the bus when it's cold, and once we've invested in our suburban cars & houses we have personal assets we need to defend (at the expense of communal infrastructure in some cases).

I take the bus regularly in my city, often with a child. janalsncm has legit criticisms of many US public bus systems. I take the bus with the kid so I can avoid driving/parking and go to a few spots that are convenient unencumbered by a vehicle. We tend to take a rapid line that has fewer stops -- and the speed makes it convenient. So the article isn't all wrong. The rapid transit line does earn my business. But at the same time, we don't take the bus everywhere because it is not convenient for long trips with transfers, and I likely have a higher threshold for explaining, "Honey don't stare at that guy with the foil and the lighter" than most well-off US parents. (In Europe we take transit all over.)

hibikir 6 hours ago|
It's probably right, but it's not going to be a panacea: Outside of very few areas in US cities, a key limitation to bus ridership is few trips generated by the catchment areas: How many people would conceivably be served by each stop?

If you look at a high resolution density map of the world, you'll find great public transport in places that have at least 70K people in the square km around stops. At that density, you can often support subways profitably too. Then a mesh of subways and buses will get you to places quite efficiently. But then you look in the US, and the vast majority of our large metros have very few areas reaching those densities (Manhattan excluded). So you end up in situations where a bus or a light rail can neither be efficient nor cheap, no matter what you do with the bus stops. There's just not enough things near each stop, and even when they are close, it might not be even all that safe to cross the streets to reach your destination.

So while this might be a good optimization for places where we are close to good systems, I suspect that ultimately most cities need far more expensive changes to even consider having good transit

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