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Posted by dmckinno 8 hours ago

My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs(www.ddmckinnon.com)
77 points | 74 comments
650 5 hours ago|
Meta, and other large companies have been encouraging PMs to code, while I've seen many negative responses from engineers having to code review, debug, deal with production issues, etc. stemming from crappy code they don't understand. Metrics and KPIs are being gamed into stupid incentives like lines of code, commits, and tickets closed. Leadership claims they are aware of Goodhart's Law, but their actions show otherwise.

Overall the rise of business types in tech company leadership has led to a drop in engineering quality, a rise in short term metrics, and fiascos like the COVID overhiring into multiple rounds of layoffs.

purrcat259 2 hours ago||
An easy correction is to only merge PRs from folks who are on the on call rota.

Those not on rota can either join or have their PR receive heavy scrutiny

duskdozer 10 minutes ago|||
If 24/7 availability is required, the company should simply hire someone to work those hours, perhaps in a different timezone if needed. Many mistakes are going to be the result of management pressures to "ship" too quickly, incentivizing cutting corners, which someone will have to deal with at some point, even if it's during their regular working hours.
badgersnake 36 minutes ago|||
Nah, the rota is large enough that it will likely be somebody else’s problem anyway and the chances are even if it does land on them they just won’t answer the phone.

Punishing mistakes with unpaid overtime has never been a good approach to quality. It just teaches management that they can get away with low quality because the engineers will pick up the pieces in their own time.

dmckinno 4 hours ago||
Funny story: I work at Meta and posted a version of this internally in response the bizarre pressure and support for PMs landing prod diffs (the response was very positive FWIW).
ivantop 4 hours ago||
which workplace group did you post it to?
dmckinno 4 hours ago||
I don't remember the exact name, but the one about AI productivity. It should be trivial to find my name from my handle, so just look at my profile.
tarcon 28 minutes ago||
"Programmers are the ultimate detail managers. All the tiny little details that nobody else wants to deal with wind up in our laps." - Robert C. Martin

Let's see if AI makes PMs care for details.

braebo 9 minutes ago|
A lot of details are already beginning to fall through to the AI’s lap anyways.
Bridged7756 3 hours ago||
Our job is done for. We will be shown the door, and everyone will rejoice. Everyone will live in a happy world where you'll doddle a house and Claude will build you a next generation SaaS that makes you millions. Managers will do the job of engineers, by just telling LLMs to make an app or to make money or something. C-suites will have agents doing the jobs of managers, and CEOs will run entire companies with a Claude $200 subscription alone. It is truly the next thing, and the future, probably happening in the next 2 years, or in 2 years in 2 years.

Yesterday I had an interview, but I got rejected. They decided to go for a manager with a Claude subscription who vibe-coded a weather app.

This is the end of software engineering.

wiseowise 40 minutes ago||
Using just one $200 Claude subscription? What is that? 2024? Managers? Get on my level, son. It’ll be one man unicorns, new breed of CEOs running army of openclaws. I’ll have you fucking know that I’ve just launched “build me a next unicorn” prompt and 1000 agents have been running nonstop for a week. See me at the top of the AngelList, chump. Though I’ve probably won’t see you while you collect your unemployment check and food stamps.
ramon156 1 hour ago|||
I got laid off at a job where this applied, then at another company got rejected because they cancelled the position altogether to use Agentic Coding by Microsoft instead.

Then I joined a small consultancy that just lets me build however I want. There's no reviews, no sprint reviews, no evaluation. They trust that you work on what is important.

While this is a very messy and unmaintained workflow, it is a lot nicer and I am honestly wondering if Scrum is even necessary when you're only with 4-5 devs. Maybe it is to streamline newcomers? Because it took a bit of time to gather all the project info, but after that it was pretty relaxing.

I don't know, the market has shifted so much that I feel like I should probably be contempt with what I have.

azangru 16 minutes ago|||
> it is a lot nicer and I am honestly wondering if Scrum is even necessary when you're only with 4-5 devs.

Scrum is so woefully misunderstood.

It makes sense for small teams (yes, those 4-5 devs), if — and that's a big if — they work together on a single product. It is intended for developers to coordinate with each other, and also provides feedback loops for reality checks and for improvement of collaboration.

If those 4-5 developers work independently from one another, don't have to coordinate, don't need business to tell them what, out of various options, is the most important thing to work on right now, and don't need feedback from users to correct them along the way, then of course they don't need scrum.

mzl 38 minutes ago||||
In my view, Scrum is a way to force dysfunctional teams to have some process, it is not useful for a team that is already delivering and working in a samll-a agile manner.
brailsafe 26 minutes ago|||
Scrum is just one of the early signs for me to start looking for a new job
tehlike 2 hours ago|||
can't tell if you are serious or not.
MrScruff 11 minutes ago||
It should be obvious, particularly from this line:

> It is truly the next thing, and the future, probably happening in the next 2 years, or in 2 years in 2 years.

bitwize 2 hours ago|||
> by just telling LLMs to make an app or to make money or something.

Again, that is literally OpenAI's business model: burn money building ChatGPT until it's smart enough to tell them how to be profitable.

"That's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for 'em."

krater23 3 hours ago||
HAHAHAHA. Dodged a bullet. Do you really want to work in a enterprice where HR is so dumb to buy this shit? Just think, they hire all your colleagues.
dasil003 1 hour ago||
As much as I recognize that a truly talented product manager is worth their weight in gold, I'd say the average engineer would be much more capable of learning to be an average PM than vice versa.

PM vibe coding a prototype for demonstration purposes? Might be a better use of a designer or engineers time, but okay I could see it being valuable. PM vibe coding something to ship to production? Your title is now engineer and you are responsible for your change, otherwise this is a direct path to destroying the quality of your product and the integrity of its data.

mono442 17 minutes ago||
PMs writing software seems like a terrible idea. Vibecoding still requires to be quite knowledge about the software engineering to actually get good results.
keeda 1 hour ago||
A friend at Meta -- long before the age of LLMs -- got paged at 3am for a site issue. When he found the PR that caused the bug, the testing section for the change simply said:

YOLO!

This was well into the "Move fast with stable infra" era of Meta, but clearly that still encouraged "Move fast and break things" for everything beyond infra.

PMs landing Prod diffs sounds like even more moving fast shall ensue.

raviisoccupied 5 hours ago||
I don’t think this is a spicy take at all. A PM’s job is to prioritise, and the most important/high priority projects will naturally be handled by Engineers enabled with AI-coding workflows. The high priority/impact work should be allocated to the folks with the highest level of skill.

I feel like PMs coding unlocks a whole new category of work, mainly addressing the long tail of cool ideas/small optimisations that ordinarily would not be addressed. Time will tell how valuable these items are in the long term.

And I say this as a PM.

croisillon 19 minutes ago||
same, it sounds more like common sense than spicyness? i vibecode prototypes and visualizations but pushing any more than that would just add chaos to the chaos we're trying to avoid
dmckinno 4 hours ago||
You'd be surprised. See this sister comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47242372
brumar 2 hours ago||
I get that "landing a prod diff" means "get stuff in production"? I never read this before. Is this slang unique to meta?
deathanatos 2 hours ago|
Nor do I know what an "eval" is, or which of the no less than three different deacronymings of "PM" (that I know of, thus far) FB uses or what that role would mean to them.
munchbunny 4 hours ago||
I generally agree with the take. At the moment the models and agents aren’t good enough for someone who isn’t trained to build and maintain a production system. So as long as Eng isn’t significantly more bandwidth starved than PM, PM’s writing production code is not a high leverage activity.

The key issue right now is that the models falter in the last mile, and the last mile is where you need the training and experience to make sure the thing that lands is production quality.

At some point in the next few years I believe the roles will merge. I suspect that PMs will be forced to specialize towards a discipline (design, data science, engineering, etc.) while engineers will also start to see more of their responsibilities covering former PM territory. Most engineers will probably become closer to “product engineers”.

fhd2 35 minutes ago|
Which would be pretty much full circle at that point. When I started out, it was common for developers to do "product management", there wasn't a specialised role for it yet. You had developers and maybe project managers (generally also developers) and testers, and that was about it. Management would talk to developers about their strategy and problems, and they'd figure out what to build based on that.

I'm pretty weirded out by some "modern" teams where you have product managers spoon feed specifications to developers, and developers focusing on nothing but the code they need to write to do exactly as they've been told.

Product managers are in a weird place. They wear a ton of hats and do entirely different jobs based on where they work. They're often really valuable, but I have some trouble putting my finger on what makes a good one. If they're good at whatever it is they end up doing, that's good.

ef2k 4 hours ago|
My hot take: the dedicated PM role is becoming optional. Engineers already understand feasibility and tradeoffs, and they often end up informing the PM anyway, which usually comes at the cost of meetings and slow decisions. With clear quarterly goals, engineering and design can own product together. They would shape scope, ship in increments, measure, and iterate. So the "product" function still exists, but its not a separate PM attached to it.
coffeefirst 2 hours ago||
So… I can do it all. Product manage, code, lead a team, even be my own designer in a pinch.

But that’s far too much work and context switching for one person. Someone will try, but the reason you tend to build teams of specialists is to let people focus even when they can do lots of different things.

rrgok 4 minutes ago|||
Hey you forget sales and marketing. Just do that also.
fud101 16 minutes ago|||
From what i've read, tech is over represented by folks on the spectrum who struggle with focus and multitasking. I see this new trend where you are being asked to increasingly do more and more to be an especially difficult burden to bear for those who self select for careers in programming.
cmdoptesc 3 hours ago|||
I've worked without a product manager before and it was not a pleasant experience.

Without a PM: I conducted customer interviews, wrote up product requirement docs (PRD), and iterated with design on the mocks. On top of that, I had to implement the whole feature (while tweaking things with a designer), and also juggling another track of technical work.

This would be fine if I was a founding engineer, but I'm not and wasn't being compensated enough for the extra workload. And sure, now with LLMs the coding portion would be smaller, but there would still a lot of context switching and one might not able to do technical deep dives into things with all the meetings. All those meetings.

So don't overlook your PM.

ef2k 59 minutes ago||
I hear you, a lot of engineers have been there. Things are changing though, roles are evolving and the org chart is starting to flatten.

A couple of things worth separating: strategic direction in most orgs is already handed down from the VP or exec level, the PM is usually executing on that mandate.

Now that coding agents exist, both the PM and the engineer end up prompting a coding agent. So, over time, the roles converge and product ownership just becomes part of building.

bayarearefugee 3 hours ago|||
My hotter take: All 3 of the engineer, PM and designer will all assume the other 2 are optional, in reality all 3 and the entire company they work for will be optional in most cases.
badgersnake 28 minutes ago|||
Good PMs are not optional. Most PMs are.
lelanthran 18 minutes ago||
How are you defining optional?

Companies without any product managers, much less good ones, are putting out profitable products all the time.

operatingthetan 1 hour ago|||
You just need one of them. It's probably the engineer.
dmckinno 4 hours ago|||
I totally agree (as a PM of ~10 years).

I think that all PMs will need to get onto the engineering, design, or research ladder. We are already seeing companies eliminate the function here and there and I expect the trend to continue.

nimonian 1 hour ago||
This seems crazy to me. I am a PM and I am busier than ever. People are waking up to the idea that code is cheap and things can change faster now, so deciding _what_ to make and prioritise in the deluge of ideas coming to prod is becoming completely essential.

One thing LLMs don't have is taste. That's on me.

krater23 3 hours ago||
As a developer, I don't see the PM as a boss or planner. It's the guy that handles the communication with all the people that don't understand what I say and ensures that they don't annoy me.

A PM is not optional when you want to have developers that have time to code and don't get distracted by thirty people that all want something else and all ASAP.

ef2k 1 hour ago|||
That sounds more like a project or engineering manager role. Work environments obviously vary, and sometimes roles are assumed to counter dysfunction. But the PM here is the product manager, which owns the product direction. The argument is that their role can now venture into building. My comment extends it further that they can actually become the builders, absorbed into engineering and design.
whateveracct 2 hours ago|||
exactly - a PM's job is to sail the high seas of wherever you sit in the org chart and general corporate political landscape.
operatingthetan 1 hour ago||
True, but I think corporate internal politics is changing.
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