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Posted by Vermin2000 1 hour ago

Rendezvous with Rama(blog.engora.com)
67 points | 71 comments
ssteeper 36 minutes ago|
I'm not fundamentally opposed to the use of AI to generate accompanying imagery, but in this case I think it detracts significantly from the article. The interior of Rama is misrepresented: the scale is completely off and the geometry is nonsensical. The clustered "cities" London, Paris, and Rome are not represented correctly. Too many more issues to name. Disappointing.

One should cherish one's own internal visualizations formed from reading the text; one should be cautious in viewing other artists' conceptions of the same material, lest your own model of the book's setting be tainted by unfaithful representations. When the imagery is this bad, it's a disservice to the book's legacy.

ternus 55 minutes ago||
DO NOT READ THE SEQUELS

One of the few cases where they actively ruin the first book, to the extent you take them as true sequels. Clarke basically licensed his name and plot to Gentry Lee, who proceeded to ruin the sense of wonder by explaining everything, often in deeply unsatisfactory ways. They would have been reasonable scifi books (for their time) if they hadn't attempted to follow up the classics.

Star Wars prequel/sequel situation.

qubidt 5 minutes ago||
> They would have been reasonable scifi books (for their time) if they hadn't attempted to follow up the classics.

I agree with everything except this. The sequels are by far the worst books I've read this decade. The memories of reading them actively causes me psychic damage. I wish I could Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind myself just to extract the distaste from my brain

amiga-workbench 51 minutes ago|||
I'm glad someone else said this because I was right about to. One of the things I love about Rama 1 is how it squashes the idea of a human centric universe where everything has to occur for reasons knowable by us. Rama is truly alien, inscrutable and fulfilling a purpose we don't get to understand. As soon as it enters our solar system, its gone for good, leaving a lot unanswered.
arjie 44 minutes ago|||
The sequels are pulpy and quite sleazy to be honest. I read them some decades ago but there are ex-beauty-queens in a tiny human colony who must have sex with everyone else to keep the population going or some such stuff. You moved from top-grade cosmic level thought to whether X or Y is sleeping with Z. It's not that the subject is not meaningful. It's just like if you were reading about WW2 in some book and the first part talks about Hitler's invasion of Poland in a strategic sense and then everything else is about the affairs among the officers' wives or something.
pavlov 40 minutes ago||
> “the first part talks about Hitler's invasion of Poland in a strategic sense and then everything else is about the affairs among the officers' wives or something”

Sounds like Tolstoy…

kryptn 39 minutes ago|||
I enjoyed the sequels but they're a completely separate story to me, and I don't think I'd read them again.

I didn't go in with the expectation that they'd be just like Rendezvous with Rama.

phendrenad2 32 minutes ago||
As someone who was saved from reading the sequels due to online warnings, it's good to see that the next generation is being warned off of them also.
pavlov 1 hour ago||
I always thought that, out of the Clarke novels, “Songs of Distant Earth” would make a good movie adaptation.

Rama may turn out unrecognizable after the Hollywood script jockeys have been through with it, as happened to Foundation. (I actually like the Apple TV version, but it’s definitely its own thing.)

For sci-fi takes on truly alien first contacts, Lem’s “Solaris” still holds its own, and the Tarkovsky movie is its own standalone classic (again something very different from the book).

the_biot 15 minutes ago||
As much as I love "Songs of Distant Earth", I suspect a Hollywood version of it would amount to "giant lobsters vs space marines", whereas in the book they're a minor sideshow.
cal_dent 5 minutes ago||
I tend to agree. I've always thought it would work well as a TV show in the more heady days of streaming (let's say 2012 - 2020) when networks and studios where it still felt like they had some room to take more risk. It's more towards the end of the last TV "golden age" but an adaptation like something like Apple's take on "Tales from the Loop". Not brash or loud or too formulaic but somehow still got made
nradov 17 minutes ago|||
The latest episode of Rick Rubin's Tetragrammaton podcast has an interview with Eric Roth who adapted the screenplay for Rendezvous with Rama.

https://www.tetragrammaton.com/content/eric-roth

dbspin 27 minutes ago|||
Counterpoint, I very much enjoyed the sequels (all but the last). They added three dimensional characters, especially women and explored a variety of aspects of first contact. They're a believable examination of how humans recreate the same social ills over and over, given the opportunity for utopia.
ChrisMarshallNY 49 minutes ago|||
> I actually like the Apple TV version, but it’s definitely its own thing.

I do, too, but I had to accept that the books basically gave us names; and that's about it.

The books would have been a complete snooze-fest, if they had been accurately rendered.

dexwiz 40 minutes ago|||
I'd all the Southern Reach trilogy (quadrilogy? now) to this list. It's more on the cosmic/eldritch side, but similar sense of unknowable.

SPOILER WARNING

My interruption is that Area X/The Crawler is a probe built to study and build a bridge back to its creator. Area X is expanding because it's the inside of a wormhole. But whatever is on the other side is long dead, and the probe is acting on instinct.

zem 51 minutes ago|||
"a fall of moondust" would translate extremely well to screen, and "the martian" has shown that it's the kind of movie that would do well enough in terms of reception.
teamonkey 9 minutes ago||
The first Clarke I read as a kid and still one of my favourites. It hasn’t aged well, not least because it was written before we landed on the moon and now know its surface isn’t like that.
poisonarena 55 minutes ago||
back in 1994, when I was 9 years old, one of my favorite albums that got me into electronic music as a young boy was the concept album "Songs of Distant Earth" by Mike Oldfield.. Also the remixes by Jam&Spoon.. I think he released some kind of weird software about it too.. I think its time to finally read the book.

https://youtu.be/gRivMEEZZE8?si=S1ZCDAg9Sl37jwoX full album

ternus 57 minutes ago||
"Wonder" might be the wrong way to describe it, but Blindsight by Peter Watts gave me the same feeling of "this is incredibly alien and I have no idea what will happen next".

Other books with a similar plot structure and deeply alien vibe:

- Shroud by Adrian Tchaikovsky (recommended elsewhere in this thread)

- Pushing Ice by Alastair Reynolds

I know there's one I'm forgetting.

SAI_Peregrinus 1 minute ago||
Stanisław Lem's Solaris belongs in such a list IMO.
cal_dent 3 minutes ago|||
the comment on the blog recommending "There Is No Antimemetics Division" is also an excellent shout. One of the more original titles I've read in recent years that gives that feeling
kryptn 35 minutes ago|||
While reading Pushing Ice a very common thought I had was "did Reynolds want to do a Rama sequels?"

Shroud is great, easy recommendation. Another of Tchaikovsky, Alien Clay, also great, also very alien.

dmbche 23 minutes ago||
For Peter Watts - Echopraxia is just as wonderful as Blindsight, highly recommend.
oniony 1 hour ago||
I really enjoyed Rendezvous with Rama when I read it as a sixteen year old. The sense of awe, the scale, the mystery: it was great. But nothing much happened and the story didn't really go anywhere interesting.

I eagerly read the sequel, hoping it would unveil the mysteries, but it felt like it was not written by Clarke at all (I suspect Lee wrote it all). Instead of wonder, sci-fi and reveal, it was more about the human relationships of the astronauts and less about the sci-fi.

jeltz 1 hour ago|
I too got bored, as you said the book did not seem to go anywhere.
garciasn 7 minutes ago|||
It was a great story, right up until the lack of an ending. As someone who reads lots of books, I will NEVER understand authors who don’t wrap up a story.

It’s like someone telling you a story and you ask, “and then what happened,” and they reply, “nothing; that’s the end of the story.” No one appreciates that, but people rave about authors who leave “open-end interpretations!”

rbanffy 55 minutes ago||||
> I too got bored, as you said the book did not seem to go anywhere.

I tried to rationalise those humans were from a world very different from my own, but not even that worked. It was like watching a reality show with uninteresting people.

brcmthrowaway 1 hour ago|||
Same with Stranger in a Strange Land
abraxas 1 hour ago||
For those who already read Rendezvous with Rama but need their alien aliens fix I can highly recommend "Shroud" by Adrian Tchaikovsky. It is a similar theme with modern writing and convincing aliens as is pretty much expected by now from Tchaikovsky.
gbourne 1 hour ago||
Children of Time was excellent, so thank for this recommendation.
oniony 48 minutes ago|||
I enjoyed Children of Time and also A Fire Upon the Deep, if you're looking for more recommendations.
jayGlow 1 hour ago|||
the fourth book in that series comes out later this week if you haven't been keeping up with him
Pepe1vo 1 hour ago|||
I'll admit I'm quite anxious for Children of Strife. Children of Time is an all-time favorite, but each subsequent book in the series was a bit of a disappointment. Fingers crossed this one turns the tide
shagie 23 minutes ago|||
I kind of agree with you on that... and I kind of understand why.

The first book was an exploration of humanity in the stars. While there was contact, it had more the traditional science fiction footing that we're familiar with.

The second book was getting into the exploration of the mind and other minds. While the first book touched on the mind - with spiders being more relatable to how we think... the 2nd book presented us with something more alien in how the octopus thinks... and something even more alien.

The third book was downright confusing until the end and was more of a philosophy book about the mind. Can one mind be in two bodies? What entails thought? What is identity? ... and for that matter, what is reality?

The 2nd and 3rd books are good (and interesting) science fiction, but they go much deeper into exploring philosophy than many other science fiction books and use the scaffold of the universe to explore the mind rather than technological advancement. The upgrade of technology and how that changes things isn't the focus of the story - as one would expect in more traditional science fiction, but rather an exploration of a new mind. That change in the expectation from the first to the second (and third) book has some wish for more of that first book with the challenges of humans (as we can understand them).

Book 1 is a first contact story with survival. Book 2 is a psychological mystery about alien cognition (and a bit of horror to it too - "we're going on an adventure" gives me shivers). Book 3 is much more of a puzzle around unreliable narration and reality.

For me, I enjoyed the first book. I was confused by the 2nd book because of the change in the "it's not about the technology and survival anymore...". The 3rd book confused me on the first pass through it. The second time going through it and understanding where things were leading and being able to pick out the changes made more sense... even though I was expecting a book about the mind rather than science (the first pass through I thought it was more about the crow's minds).

stoneman24 42 minutes ago|||
For me, not so much a decrease in quality but more of an evolution as the landscape of sentient beings expands. The paired covids in the last book, were a great addition.

Don’t normally buy a hard cover or kindle (I like the paperback) but I may do that for book 4 “Children of Strife”

ternus 53 minutes ago|||
A mere month after Pretenders to the Throne of God. You have to admire his output.
Pepe1vo 1 hour ago|||
I liked shroud a lot, but the ending felt very ungratifying. It's like Tchaikovsky wrote himself into a corner and didn't really know how to wrap it up nicely. I find this to be true of some of his other books as well.
abraxas 29 minutes ago||
To each their own. I did not expect the ending and found it quite satisfying.
cyphertruck 1 hour ago|||
I just read a series of his books involving "unspace" so nice to see a recommendation. Will check out Shroud.
UltraSane 1 hour ago||
Tchaikovsky has written some of the best books I have ever read like Children of Time and Children of Ruin and also some of the worst books I have ever read like Cage of Souls.
acheron 44 minutes ago||
Re: 2001

> Clarke wrote the movie screenplay with Kubrick

I don’t think this is true? I thought the two of them sat together and worked out the plot, and then Kubrick went off and wrote the screenplay and Clarke went off and wrote the novel. So neither is really “based on” the other.

Anyway though, Rama is great, yes. I’m skeptical of the idea of a movie adaptation but Denis Villeneuve is probably the right one to try to pull it off.

iainmerrick 24 minutes ago|
Clarke’s book The Lost Worlds of 2001 goes into a lot of detail about the process (and is a great read in its own right). His take was that the book should say “a novel by Arthur C Clarke, based on the screenplay by Stanley Kubrick” and the movie should say “screenplay by Stanley Kubrick, based on the novel by Arthur C Clarke”.

I think Kubrick was very much the dominant force in the partnership, but they did work quite closely together.

cyphertruck 1 hour ago||
Been following this movie's development for over 20 years. I give props to Morgan Freeman for trying so hard all this time to get it made. Denis Villeneuve would be a great director for this, and he could make it work.

Let's hope it happens soon... finally.

rbanffy 57 minutes ago|
The biggest danger in giving Rama to Villeneuve is the studios deciding to make the sequels as well.
yaman12 1 hour ago||
Making it a movie would ruin it. Unless it was more of a “Literary” film like 2001 and even then a fancy director would have to stray from the original to make it work visually and add conflict. Just read it. I believe in Rama’s premise. Aliens just wouldn’t be interested in us in the same way we’re not interested in local squirrel population. Rama answers the “great filter” question. Where is all the intelligent life going in universe? Right under our noses doing its thing while we do ours. Maybe on our AI will be interesting to aliens.
arionmiles 1 hour ago|
I decided to get back into reading two years ago and I picked this as one of the first ones to get started with, given it was a small book. I absolutely love Arthur C. Clarke's style of helping you visualize the grand scenes.

His books are more plot driven and the characters are pretty flat, but it's so damn fun to read through!

Morgan Freeman has been trying to get the movie adaptation made since early 2000s and wants to play Commander Norton. I had read that Denis Villenueve (the same director from the new Dune movies) was attached to direct the adaptation, but it seems like his schedule is really busy. He recently finished filming Dune Messiah and then he's got the next James Bond movie to deliver.

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