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Posted by cokernel_hacker 13 hours ago

U+237C ⍼ Is Azimuth(ionathan.ch)
325 points | 43 comments
bobosola 1 hour ago|
Great detective work re the azimuth finding for the glyph, but I believe the link to a sextant is tenuous at best. The author says it can, of course, be turned sideways to measure an azimuth with respect to an arbitrary meridian. That’s not correct. The tool for doing that is an azimuth ring sitting on a compass which allows the user to obtain the angle relative to north (the azimuth) between the user’s local meridian and a landmark.

A sextant can be used to obtain the relative horizontal angle between two landmarks, but it is much easier to use an azimuth ring. A sextant is designed to be used vertically. Holding and using one horizontally is difficult and time-consuming in comparison and is probably a less than a 1% use case, used only during the training of apprentices as a theoretical exercise (source: professional mariner for many years and daily user of a sextant back in the day). A comparison would be using a screwdriver to drive in a nail; you could do it given enough time, but a hammer is much easier.

I believe the explanation is much simpler: the glyph simply represents a variety of angles measured from north (the common meaning of azimuth) avoiding the use of any lettering (like “N”) or the use of a compass-like symbol which would be difficult to represent at such small scale.

Also (pedant warning for another poster) Polaris is not the brightest star, it’s around the 40th and has no practical use for navigation other than “north is roughly that way”.

cookiengineer 13 minutes ago|
> Great detective work

"Haussystem Didot" in the article's referenced typesetting catalog refers to the typesetting of the Didot family's printing agency. And they used that symbol 1700 and onwards in their map navigation descriptions in these books:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_g%C3%A9n%C3%A9rale_de...

I am gonna repeat myself, but search for the Gallica links in each of those books to find the scans. There you can see earlier usage and evidence that as I pointed out in other - downvoted comments - that this was commonly used for sextant navigation instructions.

kindkang2024 7 hours ago||
Great find — Satisfying to know ⍼'s origin story.

This reminds me of another Unicode block with ancient origins: the 64 I Ching hexagrams (U+4DC0–U+4DFF). Unlike ⍼, their meaning has been documented for 4,000 years — yet they carry their own encoding surprise. Unicode actually follows the traditional King Wen sequence: U+4DC0 is ䷀ (Heaven, #1) and U+4DC1 is ䷁ (Earth, #2). Interestingly, this is different from the binary Fu Xi arrangement formalized by Shao Yong (邵雍, 1011–1077), where ䷁ (000000) comes first and ䷀ (111111) last — the very diagram that captivated Leibniz in 1703 as a mirror of binary arithmetic [1][2]. Two valid orderings, encoding two different philosophies of where to begin: with pure creation, or with pure potential.

By the way, DNA also produces exactly 64 codons (4³ = (2²)³ = 2⁶) — the same number. Some have even noted functional echoes: DNA has start and stop codons that initiate and terminate translation; the hexagrams have corresponding structural counterparts [3]. Probably coincidence. Probably.

[1] https://leibniz-bouvet.swarthmore.edu/letters/letter-j-18-ma... [2] https://leibniz-translations.com/binary [3] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78369.The_I_Ching_and_th...

marwanet 4 hours ago|
The 64 coincidence between I Ching and DNA codons is always fascinating. Probably coincidence, but it’s one of those patterns that makes you pause for a moment.
card_zero 2 hours ago||
Something got doubled six times in a row, big deal.

In the case of the i-ching it's literally six bits of binary (expressed in yarrow stalks).

In genetic codons there's four symbols instead of two, and three places instead of six, so the effect is the same. (Does base 4 have a name?)

kindkang2024 4 minutes ago|||
> Does base 4 have a name?

And yes, base 4 does have distinct names in this system. Two digits give you the Four Symbols: Old Yang , Young Yang , Young Yin , and Old Yin . Add a third digit and you get the Eight Trigrams ( ), a core symbol of Daoism. Double that to six digits and you arrive at the 64 hexagrams — the I Ching, the Book of Changes, which many Chinese have believed could be used to divine the future.

Actually, Taiji, Yin-Yang, and Daoism are deeply related. Dividing Taiji gives you Yin and Yang — humanity recognizing something out of nothing, order emerging from chaos, duality arising from the void. You learn what "good" is, then you know "not good"; we coined "LLM," and we also invented "not LLM." They always come in pairs — that's the fundamental rule. We're essentially building our culture and recognition by inventing new names, mappings, and combinations to carve distinctions from some "embedding space." And we humans, including LLMs, learn from those names.

So the progression is: Void → Taiji → 2 (Yin / Yang ) → 4 (Four Symbols ) → 8 (Trigrams) → 64 (Hexagrams). Each step is just another bit of binary, but the ancients gave every level its own named structure.

At its core, it's philosophical thinking — and personally, I believe there's great wisdom in it. For example, we should never be trapped on one side and should always think beyond it. I came to know about this about a year ago and still find it fascinating. (Shameless plug: I even built a site about all this — https://ichingdao.love)

M2Ys4U 1 hour ago|||
>(Does base 4 have a name?)

Quaternary

krick 39 minutes ago||
I am a bit surprised a unicode character could be a mistery at all. The unicode process is quite bureaucratic, so how comes there wasn't any justification given when the character was submitted for inclusion? After all, I know plenty of symbols that definitely are used routinely in some domains, but that are not a part of Unicode, and it appears that going through the process to actually get them included would be a bit of a chore.
stkdump 3 minutes ago|
Maybe it was added as part of a larger set.
tantalor 12 hours ago||
I prefer to think these characters have an antimemetic field that causes anyone who learns their true meaning to forget shortly after.
theamk 13 hours ago||
context: a follow up to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31012865 (2022), a post which started the hunt for the mysterios origin of this unicode symbol.
Conscat 9 hours ago|
That's become of the most memorable threads on Hacker News to me. I definitely think about it at least once most weeks.
qingcharles 8 hours ago||
Closure finally!
merlindru 2 hours ago||
what will i do... with all this extra time....
aleyan 11 hours ago||
This is a fantastic discovery! Displaying azimuth in my ascii-side-of-the-moon [0] sounds useful, but then I would need to explain the symbol. I am displaying altitude/elevation below horizon, but there doesn't appear to be standard symbol for it. I checked the tables linked from article and there doesn't seem to be a symbol for it.

Maybe this is the opportunity to invent and suggest a symbol for Altitude?

[0] https://aleyan.com/projects/ascii-side-of-the-moon

Polizeiposaune 8 hours ago||
Elevation -- the angle above the horizon -- is usually what's paired with azimuth.
aleyan 7 hours ago||
Yes, the angle above the horizon is usually what is most useful because it is used to find something small but visible. In the case of my ascii moon, the angle below the horizon, is there to explain why something is not visible. The Moon is large enough that people can easily find it on their own if it is not obstructed by the Earth itself.

Consider the Moon as viewed from NYC at time of comment [0], it is hiding below the horizon. If you were to look at my website and then at the sky you might become upset that I am reporting the shape of the moon, but obviously it can't be seen. Hence why the website reports the angle below the horizon roughly half the time it isn't visible.

Adding Azimuth and Elevation when the Moon is above the horizon would be for completionism only and not the real enterprise use-cases served by ANSI compliant renderings of the Moon.

[0] https://aleyan.com/projects/ascii-side-of-the-moon/?lat=40.7...

xvedejas 10 hours ago||
Shouldn't it be the same symbol but turned 90 degrees? Seems to mimic the sextant operation if so. I've always used some set of greek symbols (theta, phi, maybe psi) for these kinds of angles.
Lasang 10 hours ago||
One of the interesting things about Unicode is how many symbols exist that almost no one encounters in normal software.

Every once in a while you run into something like this and realize the standard is not just for text encoding but also a kind of archive of specialized notation from different fields.

It makes you wonder how many other symbols are sitting in the table that are still mostly unknown outside the niche communities that originally needed them.

SlinkyOnStairs 9 hours ago||
> how many symbols exist that almost no one encounters in normal software.

Unicode's entire point being to make "normal software" handle those symbols ;)

FeepingCreature 38 minutes ago||
IMO the biggest omission in Unicode are game controller button and keyboard emojis, as very frequently arise in game tutorials.
Chaosvex 5 minutes ago||
Most games aren't shipping with full-fat unicode support or typefaces that could display those icons, though. Plus it'd start to break down with controllers that aren't simple A/B/X/Y.
adolph 9 hours ago|||
Given it’s a table, one would be able to iterate over each, “be wrong on the Internet” about the character and wait for said niche communities to swoop in to make a correction.
iberator 4 hours ago||
It's nearly impossible to know or to implement all utf-8/16 as beside of UTF support you need also to provide fonts for each. Thousands of scalable fonts - takes a lot of memory. That's why using such characters is risky as somewhere on the path such font will be displayed aa trash. (logs to email to presentation to word to excel to csv to database for example)

For years Ł support on Python on windows for example broke sometimes when imported from poor quality Excel files haha

vishnuharidas 11 hours ago||
“RIGHT ANGLE WITH DOWNWARDS ZIGZAG ARROW”: https://utf8-playground.netlify.app/237C
graemep 1 hour ago||
The existence of characters that need this much work to explain suggests to be that unicode is bloated. Not the only thing that suggests that, either.
psychoslave 1 hour ago||
That’s unavoidable given the goal: Unicode provides a unique number for every character, no matter what the platform, no matter what the program, no matter what the language.

https://www.unicode.org/standard/WhatIsUnicode.html

graemep 58 minutes ago||
What does "every character" mean? Did it really need to include emojis, for example? Domino tiles? Alchemical symbols? A much smaller number of characters would have been sufficient for all but a tiny number of cases.
maxeda 1 hour ago||
The stated goal of Unicode is to support every past and present writing system in world world. Say what you will about that but I think just because a symbol's meaning might be obscure to us doesn't mean it isn't useful to someone else.
tantalor 12 hours ago|
> it can, of course, be turned sideways to measure an azimuth with respect to an arbitrary meridian

Ah, of course :)

bombcar 9 hours ago|
Honestly the little example of how a sextant works was more interesting to me.
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