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Posted by etothet 16 hours ago

The MacBook Neo(daringfireball.net)
https://www.pcmag.com/news/asus-co-ceo-macbook-neo-is-a-shoc...
408 points | 699 commentspage 6
system7rocks 10 hours ago|
I notice they are sold out at MicroCenter - I was hoping to go look at one in person today.
xp84 9 hours ago||
> You cannot buy an x86 PC laptop in the $600–700 price range that competes with the MacBook Neo on any metric — performance, display quality, audio quality, or build quality.

Interesting metrics, though I'd add that if you count storage and memory as metrics, it'd be hard to find a worse PC laptop. And I don't see why we should artificially exclude ARM PC laptops from the comparison.

https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-14-wuxga-lapto...

2x the RAM and 2x the storage isn't meaningless to a lot of people.

The PC has a single-core geekbench around 2100 single / 10,000 multicore. The Neo is apparently in the range of 3600 / 9,000 multicore.

No arguments on the Mac's screen being way nicer though. However, the low-end computer market - unlike most of us on HN - has never cared about pixel density, color accuracy, or really any screen specs other than size (Looks like the Asus has the Mac by an inch on that spec).

Bottom line, for a high-end Chromebook replacement (literally everything is done in the cloud, so storage doesn't matter, and only running a browser, so RAM isn't a big deal), as long as it's for someone who will take care of such a delicate device, the Neo is pretty great. For everyone else, it's debatable.

> And certainly not software quality.

This is most definitely only a little true in that Windows has jumped the shark lately with ads and various enshittification, and thus ties with Mac OS. Tahoe is without a doubt the worst Mac OS ever released. It's both poor quality and poorly designed.

zarzavat 8 hours ago||
The manufacturers don't care about display quality, because displays are hard and expensive. Apple has enough volume that they can get a custom panel.

Users on the other hand, they definitely care about display quality more than they care about RAM. The display is the part you look at!

If you're in store and there's a Neo with a crisp 200 PPI screen and a Windows laptop with a cheap screen but more RAM, the vast majority of consumers will choose the laptop with the better display. People make purchasing decisions based on feels and the Neo has great feels.

fsh 8 hours ago||
On the contrary, displays are commodity components. So much so that motivated enthusiasts have managed to swap better panels into their ThinkPads for a long time. Manufacturers don't prioritize display quality in cheap devices because it doesn't show up on the spec sheet and most customers don't care that much.
zarzavat 7 hours ago||
Consumers don't read spec sheets. My mother doesn't even know the difference between RAM and SSD - it's all just "memory" right? But she knows that when she goes to the Apple Store the computers are built to an impressive standard.

Quality speaks for itself, and the way that people buy computers is through their eyes and fingertips, not their heads.

Go to the Apple Store and just observe how people make their buying decisions. They don't just look at the spec sheet, they lift, type on, caress the computers. They want to know how it will feel to own one.

xp84 4 hours ago||
People already in the Apple Store have already chosen to probably buy an Apple computer, and they all have approximately equally great displays to the layperson (myself included -- I can't tell an important difference between my M1 MacBook Air's screen and the one on the nicest MacBook Pro in the Apple Store).

Go into a non-Apple space though, where money is not "no object," and see how many people would choose a 16-17" 1920x1080 screen over a 13" MacBook Neo purely because of the big screen, nevermind that the Mac has roughly 4x the number of pixels. I guarantee you, it's more than you think.

My only point was that yes, the MacBook Neo wins on quality construction and aesthetics (but I'll argue NOT on durability since plastic laptops can take a lot more incidental bumps than Macs will), cool factor/perceived eliteness, and screen quality. I am sure there are plenty of people who care about those things, but I think most of those people are already buying a Mac today.

I suspect we'll actually see a modest cannibalization of those casual but cheap Mac users from the MacBook Air, since most people don't really understand how to evaluate RAM and storage size, but a lot of them will have a bad experience after filling the disk.

officeplant 8 hours ago|||
>And I don't see why we should artificially exclude ARM PC laptops from the comparison.

As an ARM enthusiast who has tried a lot of WinARM, I think at this point I really struggle to believe MS has a single care in the world for improving quality of life for WinARM users. They sure do market it, and the laptops do work most of the time. I've just never had any other computers shit the bed when it comes to graphics drivers like a Qualcomm powered PC. Website with too many video/gifs playing? Screen whites out/all the video boxes go pink and explorer resets. Open up the gif search in Discord? Basically a coin flip chance its going to kill the graphics driver and reset explorer again. I had a Dell Inspiron with the Qualcomm 8CX Gen2 that could reliably be crashed just by quickly scrolling twitter on a video posting heavy day.

I would rather take a Mediatek powered Chromebook any other day until the Neo showed up and started to approach the sub $500 ARM chromebook price point.

xp84 4 hours ago||
That's sad to hear. I continue to hold out hope for more efficient ARM CPUs outside of the increasingly controlling Apple walled garden (and for those computers to be good).
DauntingPear7 8 hours ago||
I also am not a huge fan of the 256GB storage, but if someone doesn’t already know what ram is, they really won’t care and won’t notice much. I’m a tech guy. I bought an M1 air with 256GB storage and 8GB RAM. I was able to do development and mobile development fine. I never encountered RAM related slowdowns. I have an iCloud subscription because I don’t want to manage my own NAS. This is a heavier use case than what, say, a normal college student will do with it, and it worked just fine for me. This is by far the best laptop I have seen in this bracket. If I was just heading to college today, and I didn’t have the money for a Pro or Air, I would 100% get this far before a windows laptop.
dmitrygr 10 hours ago||
> Because the Neo’s only camera-in-use indicator is in the menu bar, that seems obviously possible to circumvent via software.

Not as obvious as the author implies. Apple has some docs out, IIRC, explaining how it is implemented. Worth a read...

NetMageSCW 4 hours ago|
I can’t find where Apple really explains how it works.
dmitrygr 3 hours ago||
https://randomaugustine.medium.com/on-apple-exclaves-d683a2c...

https://9to5mac.com/2024/06/03/m4-ipad-pro-security-feature-...

nobrains 7 hours ago||
No mention of no backlit in keyboard?
asadm 9 hours ago||
Soo has there been work to run hackintosh on an iPhone??
rekabis 6 hours ago||
I am perfectly fine with many of the technological restrictions on this device, and think it represents a great balance.

However, I think that two will bring sour tastes to people’s metaphorical mouths much more than expected: the RAM and drive space.

There should have been a 16Gb option. Nosebleed the price if you have to, or include a SODIMM slot if needed, but the option should have been there to expand the memory to 16Gb either on spec or at a later date. Because each version of MacOS gets weightier and more demanding of hardware - Windows isn’t the only resource hog out there - and at 8Gb the pain will begin to be felt long before the 7-year usability cycle comes to an end.

There should have been a 1Tb option. Not because people use that much drive space - many don’t - but because 1Tb is the level which provides enough cells in parallel to properly saturate the PCIe bus, ensuring maximum performance. Not always at that 1Tb level, and not on every machine. But typically 1Tb or above, rather than below. Even if it required a hairdryer to unstick the original due to the constrained space not permitting a lock-down screw, the drive should have been either replaceable or with the size as (again) a nosebleed-price option at provisioning.

Because while I see every other compromise as acceptable, it is those two which make me hesitate on getting this as a long-term secondary/casual system.

Other than that, this is a laptop which can only goose Apple’s further adoption among students and casual users.

NetMageSCW 4 hours ago|
Anyone who knows what any of that means, or even to looks at those specs, are not in the market for this and should know better.

Why do you think the cheapest MacBook available should be one that costs more to support power users. Apple has the MacBook Air for those users.

philip1209 8 hours ago||
Imagine if future versions had a sim card slot for data-only connections. That would be killer - a main reason I've considered an iPad is for "ambient internet" wherever you go. Why has that phone feature not made its way to laptops?
dzhiurgis 4 hours ago||
Very obvious next step is to release 15" or 16" variant. It would put nail in coffin on cheap PC market. But would also cannibalize their own air/pro sales.
jauntywundrkind 7 hours ago||
It's remarkable to me that this shows what an iPhone chip has been capable of, and a reminder about how strongly Apple works to keep phone, tablet, and laptop in separate segments. Even though they share the same chips.

Going to be signficiantly harder for Qualcomm X2 Elite to make a splash, given the price here. I have high hopes for the X2 Elite Extreme (even if it is going to be cursed with incredible difficulty trying to get each of these non-ACPI / DeviceTree systems running Linux). But this raises the bar signficiantly.

halapro 7 hours ago|
People keep calling this "a phone chip" when M1 was literally "a phone chip" to begin with, based on A14. It's entirely reasonable that in 4 generations of "phone chips", the A18 reaches the speed that M1 did during its "one-generation" rework.
jauntywundrkind 3 hours ago||
The M1 was beefed up in quite a number of ways. More cores, much bigger GPU, double the memory bandwidth, more clocks, more power, a massive io subsystem that just didn't exist period with thunderbolt, pcie, etc.

You are correct that the architecture was indeed the same, but it was quite a different chip. "Literally a phone chip to begin with, based on", to me, misleads from how different the m1 was. But yes, they appear to share the same architecture.

intrasight 8 hours ago|
>we’re lucky it comes with a charger at all

Yup

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