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Posted by tosh 5 hours ago

Parallels confirms MacBook Neo can run Windows in a virtual machine(www.macrumors.com)
82 points | 102 comments
Someone1234 2 hours ago|
If Apple continues with the budget Neo brand into a 12 GB iteration, I can see this becoming more realistic (rather than a novelty). That being said, Parallels may need to review its licensing with a budget tier in mind. Few will buy a cheap computer and then pay what Parallels charges for a license (regardless if one-time or subscription).

They need to introduce something below the Standard license targeting the Neo. What I'd personally consider is:

- Standard gets 16 GB vRAM (to perfectly target the base MacBook Air). But leave it at 4-6 vCPUs to not compete with the Pro (still for general computing, not power-users)

- New "Lite" tier with 8 GB vRAM max for the Neo (4 vCPUs). Increasing to 12 GB vRAM if the Neo does.

Then you target a $89 price point one-time-purchase for the "Lite" tier. Essentially three plans, targeting your three major demographics: budget, standard, and pro/power-user.

zitterbewegung 1 hour ago||
This isn't a novelty it will crush the low end of the PC market. No one cares if the next iteration will be better with 12GB of ram. The workloads that people say that 8GB can't handle will be ones that the actual users will either wait or tolerate. I've been noticing that people who review the Macbook Neo basically don't get the point [1] and just the headline of this article matters that VMs work and thats a big win. The most ridicuous thing about the laptop is that it appears to be reparable which sort of tells me this is a template similar to the M1 Air of the future laptop designs that Apple will come out with. [2]

[1] https://samhenri.gold/blog/20260312-this-is-not-the-computer...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbPCGqoBB4Y

Someone1234 1 hour ago|||
> This isn't a novelty it will crush the low end of the PC market.

You took what I said out of context and then replied to something else. Running Parallels on a Neo is a novelty. Parallels is both what the thread is about AND what my reply was expressly about.

Nobody can reasonably read what I wrote, in context, and believe I was referring to the computer itself as a novelty.

gamblor956 55 minutes ago|||
Most people run Windows just fine on cheap laptops with 4GB of RAM.

These won't run Crysis, but they don't need to.

bitwize 41 minutes ago||
Windows doesn't run "just fine" on 4 GiB of RAM. I had a laptop with 6; Windows 10 became barely usable. If you want to run one, small, program at a time I think you'll be ok. Forget about web browsing; you'll get one tab and it'll be slow.
conradev 1 hour ago|||
VMWare Fusion is free, even if it is a pain in the butt to download. It also has GPU paravirtualization for Linux/Windows which is the only reason I use a proprietary VMM on macOS these days.
spullara 1 hour ago|||
You can also use UTM to run Windows for free and it is open source.

https://mac.getutm.app

LoganDark 38 minutes ago||
Last I checked UTM doesn't have GPU acceleration. Parallels' proprietary GPU driver is the only reason to pay for it.
fragmede 1 hour ago|||
http://tart.run works great for running macOS (and Linux) VMs on macOS if you're technical. It's free for non-commercial uses too! (Don't think there's GPU acceleration tho).
Asmod4n 1 hour ago||
Apple already sells that, it’s called MacBook Air.
JSR_FDED 2 hours ago||
I’m excited that Apple now has a reason to keep MacOS small. Their soon to be top-selling machine has 8GB and they won’t want to make all those millions of Neos unusable by shipping a bloated OS.
alwillis 13 minutes ago||
I wrote about how Unified Memory, SSD directly attached to the SoC and Apple's use of real-time compression saves memory, reduces power consumption and wear on SSDs [1].

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47354705

vbezhenar 59 minutes ago||
MacOS has always been incredibly bloated.
LoganDark 34 minutes ago||
There's a difference between bloated and batteries included. From a development point of view, macOS has native system libraries for things no other platform seems to include native system libraries for. And by "native system libraries" I do not mean downloadable content, dynamic support or anything similar, even if they're first-party. Though having unremovable system apps for every one of Apple's services MAY count as bloated if you don't use them.
p_ing 29 minutes ago||
The definition of bloat is something that you don’t use, even if someone else does.
Kwpolska 45 minutes ago||
> Windows 11 VM requires a minimum of 4GB of RAM to function

You can give it less. It may refuse to install, but even without using any workarounds, you can change the assigned RAM after installing and it will not refuse to boot. The minimum for Windows Server 2025 is 2 GB, and it’s basically the same OS (just with less bloat).

enopod_ 3 hours ago||
Can it run Linux?
alwillis 42 minutes ago||
Yes; macOS has native container support for Linux [1].

[1]: https://github.com/apple/container

bram98 13 minutes ago|||
In a vm, I don't see why not.
jayknight 38 minutes ago|||
Just run WSL inside of Windows.
Retr0id 55 minutes ago|||
Likely yes, eventually
jagged-chisel 3 hours ago|||
In a VM, definitely. Just like other Macs.
stuxnet79 3 hours ago||
If the A18 Pro has the same ISA as the M-series chips then this may not be so straightforward. I am still hanging on to my 2020 Intel MBP for dear life because it is the only Apple device I own that allows me to run Ubuntu and Windows 11 on a VirtualBox VM.
garblegarble 1 hour ago|||
Would you elaborate what you mean by saying Linux on an M-series chip isn't straightforward? That's not been my experience, I (and lots of other devs) use it every day, Apple supports Linux via [0], and provides the ability to use Rosetta 2 within VMs to run legacy x86 binaries?

0: https://github.com/apple/container

stuxnet79 56 minutes ago||
Clearly I'm not as knowledgable about this as I thought I was. I already have a Ubuntu x86 VM running on an Intel Mac (inside VirtualBox). Same with Windows 11. Can this tool allow me to run both VMs in an Apple Silicon device in a performant way? Last I checked VirtualBox on Apple Silicon only permits the running of ARM64 guests.

While I have a preference for VirtualBox I'd say I'm hypervisor agnostic. Really any way I can get this to work would be super intriguing to me.

js2 39 minutes ago|||
> Can this tool allow me to run both VMs in an Apple Silicon device in a performant way?

I use VMWare Fusion on an M1 Air to run ARM Windows. Windows is then able to run Windows x86-64 executables I believe through it's own Rosetta 2 like implementation. The main limitation is that you cannot use x86-64 drivers.

Similarly, ARM Linux VMs can use Rosetta 2 to run x86-64 binaries with excellent performance. For that I mostly use Rancher or podman which setup the Linux VM automatically and then use it to run Linux ARM containers. I don't recall if I've tried to run x86-64 Linux binaries inside an Linux ARM container. It might be a little trickier to get Rosetta 2 to work. It's been a long time since I tried to run a Linux x86-64 container.

alwillis 32 minutes ago||||
> Last I checked VirtualBox on Apple Silicon only permits the running of ARM64 guests.

I used to use VirtualBox a lot back in the day. I tried it recently on my Mac; it's become pretty bloated over the years.

On the other hand, this GUI for Quem is pretty nice [1].

[1]: https://mac.getutm.app

argsnd 48 minutes ago||||
Run ARM64 Linux and install Rosetta inside it. Even on the MacBook Neo it'll be faster than your 2020 Intel Mac.
fragmede 32 minutes ago|||
Pay Parallels for their GPU acceleration that makes Arm windows on apple silicon usable.
ChocolateGod 34 minutes ago||||
The instruction set is not the issue, the issue is on ARM there's no standardized way like on x86 to talk to specialized hardware, so drivers must be reimplemented with very little documentation.
Retr0id 1 hour ago||||
As long as you're ok with arm64 guests, you can absolutely run both Ubuntu and Win11 VMs on M-series CPUs. Parallels also supports x86 guests via emulation.
alwillis 36 minutes ago|||
> As long as you're ok with arm64 guests

I've run amd64 guests on M-series CPUs using Quem. Apple's Rosetta 2 is still a thing [1] for now.

[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102527

[2]: https://mac.getutm.app

stuxnet79 49 minutes ago|||
How is the performance when emulating the x86 architecture via parallels?

Also is it possible to convert an existing x86 VM to arm64 or do I just have to rebuild all of my software from scratch? I always had the perception that the arm64 versions of Windows & Ubuntu have inferior support both in terms of userland software and device drivers.

muricula 1 hour ago|||
Same Armv8 ISA. And it's the same ISA Android Linux has run on for over a decade.
hu3 3 hours ago||
Native, no. That would cannibalise Apple services which is a huge source of revenue for them.
dymk 3 hours ago|||
Nobody is moving to Linux because there’s an iCloud replacement waiting for them over there…
Retr0id 1 hour ago|||
Have you confirmed this? I haven't seen anyone concretely describe the boot policy of the Neo yet (it should be an easy enough check for anyone who has one in-hand).
alwillis 39 minutes ago||
Like any other Apple Silicon Mac, you can't currently boot into Linux but Apple has native container support that Linux works on [1].

[1]: https://github.com/apple/container

Retr0id 35 minutes ago||
I'm writing this from Linux running natively (not virtualized) on an Apple Silicon mac (M1 Pro)
alwillis 29 minutes ago||
I'm aware of that option, but that's not something the average user is going to do. But knock yourself out if you want to try it.
Retr0id 23 minutes ago||
If you were aware then why did you tell me I can't???
Tagbert 4 hours ago||
Not surprising but good to hear. It seems that there really isn’t anything that runs on a new MackBook Air that you couldn’t run on a NEO. It might not be as fast for some things but it gets the job done.
kace91 3 hours ago|
Isn’t basically m1 air equivalent in specs?

I’ve got that one and I’m yet to feel limited.

xattt 3 hours ago|||
It will have a longer support period than an M1 based on Apple’s history of device releases. This might also mean a longer support period for the 16-series phones than typical, similar to the 4S.
abnercoimbre 3 hours ago|||
Always excited to hear about fellow M1 users. I’m not limited in the slightest. 5-6 years strong now?
bloudermilk 3 hours ago|||
I’ve been an M1 Air fan since I got mine in 2020 but recently things have become unusable. Playing 4K videos often drops frames, even at 30fps. And I can’t reliably run Notion’s transcription AI on Zoom calls, even though it’s not running locally. I’m going to do an OS reinstall soon to see if that helps, otherwise it will be time to upgrade…
kace91 2 hours ago|||
Yeah, honestly not even counting. The only reason I even consider moving is that I dislike Tahoe and I know eventually I won’t be able to stall the update; hardware wise it doesn’t even cross my mind.

I have a current gen MacBook Pro for work configured with stupid amounts of ram and I feel no difference in terms of fluidity at all.

donatj 4 hours ago||
Was that in doubt?
xeromal 4 hours ago||
It uses the iphone processor (which I think still might be one of those Mchips?) so I think it was ok to be unsure.
jayd16 3 hours ago||
The odds of it not running at all were low but the performance is the real factor for whether it can _practically_ run a windows VM.
Aurornis 3 hours ago|||
Virtualization requires specific hardware support to be performant. There are ways to do complete software emulation of a virtual machine but it would be so slow that nobody would want to use it.

This is them confirming that the CPU has enough virtualization support that they can virtualize rather than emulate the guest OS

crazysim 4 hours ago||
Yeah. It's the first production Mac using an A-chip and is a Mac that has had many things cut out for savings. The question is did Apple feature cut required functionality.
nsxwolf 3 hours ago||
The first Apple Silicon developer boxes were Mac Minis with A series chips so I wouldn’t have expected any issues.
crazysim 3 hours ago|||
That's why I chose to specifically mention production. The developer boxes were to get macOS native stuff going but virtualization was not a priority.
bydo 3 hours ago|||
The A12Z in the developer transition kit didn't support hardware virtualization.
qaz_plm 4 hours ago||
“Parallels Desktop runs on MacBook Neo in basic usability testing. The Parallels Engineering team has completed initial testing and confirmed that Parallels Desktop installs and virtual machines operate stably on MacBook Neo. Full validation and performance testing is ongoing, and additional compatibility statement will follow if required.”
moralestapia 42 minutes ago||
Nice!

The best Windows laptop you can buy is still a MacBook.

bitwize 40 minutes ago|
Kinda like how back in the day, the best Mac you could buy was an Amiga. :)
j45 4 hours ago||
If Parallels can run it, UTM likely can run a fair bit too.
the_real_cher 4 hours ago|
does that mean since this is the iPhone 16 cpu, by proxy the iPhone 16 can also run Windows in a virtual machine?
bombcar 4 hours ago||
Maybe/maybe not (we don't know how identical the A18 chip is to what shipped in the iPhone) - but it does determine that the virtualization stuff that was added to the M1 (in the era of the A14) has now moved over to the A series, at least enough to support macOS.
the_real_cher 2 hours ago||
Thats pretty cool.
hard_times 4 hours ago||
Is this a trick question? Of course. However Apple imposed artificial limitations, like disabling JIT.
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