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Posted by felineflock 6 hours ago

HP trialed mandatory 15-minute support call wait times (2025)(arstechnica.com)
264 points | 176 comments
cjs_ac 5 hours ago|
The danger in assuming that all your customers who request support are the sort of person who couldn't empty water from a boot with instructions written on the heel is that all of your competent customers will seek out your more respectful competitors, leaving you with only those who couldn't empty the boot, thus maximising your support costs.
omcnoe 4 hours ago||
It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. You can see these exact same market dynamics at work in the mobile telco industry. Newer online only upstarts able to save on costs because they don’t operate a retail store you can visit to get help resetting your email password.
dehrmann 3 hours ago|||
One time, I needed this. I lost my phone with a physical SIM card and needed a replacement that day. Now I'm trying to remember the eSIM transfer flow to know if this is still an issue.

But also, which MVNO should you go to? Carriers supposedly prioritize their own customers, so it feels a bit like running on spot instances.

karlgkk 18 minutes ago|||
> Carriers supposedly prioritize their own customers

They explicitly do, even among their own customers and plans. If you Google the carrier name plus QCI, you’ll find tables where people have documented, which plans are in which priority group

neild 1 hour ago||||
Mint (T-Mobile MVNO) has been great for me, $20/month/line and my one experience with international travel was good ($20 for 10 days). I used to be on Verizon and the quality of service doesn’t seem any worse while the price is dramatically lower.
dv_dt 1 hour ago||||
Ive been happy with US mobile - you can actually switch between their VZ backed network or their ATT backed network.
eru 3 hours ago||||
> But also, which MVNO should you go to? Carriers supposedly prioritize their own customers, so it feels a bit like running on spot instances.

If you are so paranoid, just get multiple SIMs? Most phones support that these days, especially multiple eSIM. And the plans are really cheap (at least where I live).

mey 3 hours ago||||
Personally switched from VZW to Google Fi. It's on TMOs network. As you can imagine, when engaging with Google's support was hilarious when there was something I needed, but overall I don't miss Verizon and pay drastically less.
laurencerowe 2 hours ago|||
Is Google Fi particularly cheap? Their normal prices seem to start at $35/month for 30GB of data which is more than Verizon's Visible plans at $25/month. (The current 50% off offer on Google Fi does seem a good deal though.)

I ended up switching to Mobile-X since I'm on wifi so much I only use a few gigs of data a month. $2/month + $1.90/GB vs Google Fi's flexible plan of $20/month + $10/GB.

Sohcahtoa82 1 hour ago|||
> Is Google Fi particularly cheap?

If you travel internationally, they're really cheap relative to everyone else who will charge you absolutely ridiculous roaming fees.

laurencerowe 22 minutes ago||
I just buy local eSIM's online when I go abroad now. Lycamobile is usually good around Europe if you land in a country with them. Their UK and Portugal subsidiaries are £5 or €4 / month with 30-50GB in country including 12GB roaming in other European countries. Order before you go and get the eSIM QR code by email. But you must be in the appropriate country to activate.

The Google Fi plans with roaming are either $65/month (100GB) or $20/month + $10/GB. I often end up using quite a bit of data abroad.

verdverm 40 minutes ago|||
My Google Fi is $20/m for connectivity and then $0.01/Mb until I hit 6Gb ($80) at which point everything after is no cost. Most of my data is on wifi, so my bill rarely goes above $25
laurencerowe 1 minute ago||
I usually end up paying about $5/month, though that is a data only plan as I just use Google Voice for calls and use maybe a couple of gigs of data.

Having moved here from the UK where I was used to cheap mobile plans I just grate at how extortionate they are in the US.

rootusrootus 2 hours ago|||
For those of us who have crappy coverage with TMO, Verizon themselves offer a much better alternative to their postpaid service, called Visible. It's pretty hilarious how much better of an experience it is, and you are on the same network.
throwaway27448 1 hour ago|||
I haven't had any issues with tmobile coverage (that wasn't also a problem with verizon) in well over a decade now. Hell it even worked well in the dense hilly jungles of burundi. Verizon customer service was so bad before I switched I swore them off for life....

The single place I noticed verizon gets coverage and tmobile doesn't is three levels underground in a concrete parking garage.

laurencerowe 2 hours ago|||
Coverage is very specific to your situation. I've had basically no coverage on Verizon in offices in the Bay Area where T-mobile worked fine while colleagues could only get Verizon at home.
piperswe 3 hours ago||||
US Mobile gets you QCI8 (same priority as Verizon postpaid) when you're on the Verizon network with a 5G device, and they let you pay for QCI8 on AT&T.
axus 3 hours ago||||
I was able to transfer eSIM for a lost phone using their website, I think the online carrier had run into that issue before.
slumberlust 58 minutes ago|||
They're all fungible if you aren't addicted to your phone.
nitwit005 2 hours ago||||
Those stores generally turn a profit eventually. A smaller company is just going to struggle to afford building out the stores and running ads to get people in the door.
tencentshill 2 hours ago||
Those startups eventually need legions of fools with which to easily part their money.
Clent 4 hours ago|||
Isn't that the opposite though? Having a store for the customer to get face-to-face support is sometimes necessary even those who prefer it all to be online. It acts as a stop gap to people otherwise low support customers.

The newer upstarts you mention are self selecting for customers who would do everything they can to never make a support call. They are just another form of having a 15 minute wait time because online only is it's own customer service barrier.

ssl-3 3 hours ago|||
Centralizing support generally saves money.

There's a lot of reasons for this. One of them is that it tends to be a lot cheaper to have one building in Denver to host support people than to have many buildings in every city.

Besides that concept, they're selling telephone and data services. It makes sense to -- you know -- make use of them.

When we had a telephone issue back in the landline days, we didn't load ourselves up into the car and go to a store to get help from someone in person; we instead used the phone.

(That may have been done by using the neighbor's phone, but whatever. We still have neighbors and not all of them are dicks. And these days, we still have cell phone stores for those who can't empty the water from a boot. The days of brick and mortar cell phone sales are not, at this time, numbered.)

nebula8804 2 hours ago|||
>it tends to be a lot cheaper to have one building in Denver to host support people than to have many buildings in every city

I'd kill for the building in Denver. Instead I always get some extremely compressed voice connection in the Philippines.

massysett 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, but Baby Bell would dispatch a technician to your house if needed.
xp84 3 hours ago||||
No. In the case of cell phone carriers, the only times in the past 10 years I have ever darkened the door of a retail store is times when the carrier was too incompetent to let me get my problem solved another way. For instance, there was a time at AT&T where if you had acquired a brand new unlocked iPhone that needs eSIM, you needed to receive a physical piece of cardboard printed with a unique QR code on it in order to activate it successfully.

I’ve been with US Mobile for years now and never once felt the need for a physical store.

array_key_first 4 hours ago|||
With sims switching to e-sim there's basically no reason to have in person support for cellular service. There's nothing they can do, outside of what they can already do online or over the phone. Like, if you go to an AT&T store with a broken e-sim they can't wave a magic wand. They'll probably just reset it on their end, like they could do over the phone.
ryandrake 3 hours ago|||
Some people just prefer going into a physical place and talking to someone in a face to face conversation they can understand. I’ll very rarely want to sit in a phone queue just to talk to “Jason” who has a thick Filipino accent sitting in a crowded support room talking through what sounds like a a 1kbps VOIP connection. And I’m never going to text chat an AI bot for help.

Contrast that to my kid who is horrified by in person interactions and thinks that the kiosks at McDonalds were the world’s greatest recent invention.

Not to mention people with disabilities that make one form of communication the only option.

People are different and good companies try to serve them all.

anonymars 4 hours ago|||
Similarly when layoffs hit and morale gets low, guess what caliber of employee is going to jump ship and which is going to stay?
gopher_space 3 hours ago||
Everyone knows morale is a dump stat... if you don't track consequences.
marcosdumay 3 hours ago||
Well, you can't measure it, so it can't matter.
zombot 18 minutes ago|||
Which is still not enough punishment for a decision like this. But without adequate consumer protection laws abuse like this is to be expected.
gib444 4 hours ago|||
For a few years now, I've found every support department has been trained to treat every single person as if they were a dumb 5 year old.

The condescending replies from the outset, the 'clear your cookies' first line response to every bug report, the ignoring everything you say because you /must/ be wrong, the weird need to explain that they understand your feelings and frustrations (before even expressing any frustration)...

Drives me insane. There is no breaking through it. You will continue to get LLM replies tweaked for 5 year olds.

wccrawford 1 hour ago|||
I used to work tech support. Those lines are there because they work. In only 9 months, I had a few different people tell me they were pc repair techs and knew what they were doing, and I didn't need to do the basics.

I did them anyhow because the company said so, and I found that more often than not, it fixed the problem.

If I had sent that to second-level support without making sure of it, I'd have been written up.

So yes, they're trained to treat callers like they don't know what they're doing, because they often don't. Even if they claim to.

The best thing you can do is just go along with it quickly and get it over with, even if you've already done it. There's no way around it.

gib444 58 minutes ago||
> I used to work tech support

Me too. Long time ago though. I get it.

But my problem and main point is that now L2/L3 doesn't seem to exist, or is way way harder to access.

When I did L1, I was trained to permit escalation. Now, it seems people are trained to gaslight people that actually nothing is broken and it's all their head.

Spooky23 1 hour ago||||
I ran an enterprise help desk for a few years. I wasnt in the day to day, but would listen to calls sometimes. The reality is, dumb 5 year olds are often smarter.

We had a large (250k) workforce with a pretty wide variance in roles. We had probably about 100 people in the call center, although some of them did more interesting stuff too. It was a very good support organization with multichannel contact capabilities and really good, well paid staff.

Basically there was a barbell distribution with the lowest ranked people and highest ranked employees being the worst. (Think attorneys and other special IC and middle managers. Executives had dedicated support and didn’t use this method.) The most expensive 20% of users make 80% of the calls. The high ranking ones were dumber to deal with and took more time, the low ranking ones called too often for dumb reasons but resolved quickly.

I cannot imagine the hell on earth the general public could be.

LeifCarrotson 3 hours ago||||
There is no breaking through it because those LLM replies are not tweaked for 5 year olds due to managerial decree, they're tweaked for the average callers to those support departments due to cold hard reality.

If 99 out of 100 callers are wrong, are frustrated, and don't know how to clear their cookies, and then you call in, they'll treat you like those 99. Even if you're correct, just cheerfully trying to be helpful, and even if you did clear cookies literally identified the obvious typo in their Javascript that makes it work again or whatever, you're an outlier.

Maybe you can get that person to readjust their expectations for you, maybe you can't, and maybe their management can embark on a massive education and training effort to teach their customer support agents to assume that each new caller is an intelligent expert who's aware of and has already tried the obvious things, but tomorrow they will regress to the mean.

dwedge 3 hours ago|||
Is this not begging the question that 99 out of 100 were wrong? This totally depends if the aim is the solve problems or to reduce support costs - which are not necessarily the same thing.

If only 1% of tickets ever got past level 1 then okay but I doubt this is the case in most places. And if you already tried to fix your issue online there is nothing more frustrating than being told to do so repeatedly while on hold.

I have an issue today where a service accidentally cancelled my package but still charged me. I asked for it to be reinstated or refunded, and three times I got the same identical automated output pretending to be a person, the fourth attempt is simply a credit card charge back and a lost customer

BobaFloutist 3 hours ago||
Maybe the online FAQ/support flow should give you a one-time skip-the-line code that you append to the phone number or something.
lol768 2 hours ago|||
One of the first things I did when I was involved in the set-up of online support ticket system for a GB rail retailer was https://xkcd.com/806/ compliance. If the support request body contains the phrase "Shibboleet" the ticket will be assigned to an engineer.

Equally it's not hard to teach front-line when to escalate, and ensure L2 and beyond are approachable. Even better if L2/L3 can keep half an eye on tickets that come in for anything that looks particularly interesting.

gib444 1 hour ago||
Hah, I've seen your posts on RailForums!

> One of the first things I did when I was involved in the set-up of online support ticket system for a GB rail retailer was https://xkcd.com/806/ compliance. If the support request body contains the phrase "Shibboleet" the ticket will be assigned to an engineer.

I get the feeling you wouldn't joke about this. I can't believe how amazing this is LOL. I /think/ I know which retailer...good to know!

> Equally it's not hard to teach front-line when to escalate, and ensure L2 and beyond are approachable. Even better if L2/L3 can keep half an eye on tickets that come in for anything that looks particularly interesting.

Right!? I did L2/L3 support many moons ago and it was very much my job to keep an eye on PFYs to ensure they weren't dismissing interesting tickets.

nitwit005 2 hours ago|||
While I haven't heard of that idea being implemented, I have heard of the support page you're looking at determine who you got routed to if you started a support chat.
progval 25 minutes ago||||
> don't know how to clear their cookies

Why do users even need to manually clear their cookies?

gib444 14 minutes ago||
It fixes like 1% of problems but sounds plausible to probably 95% of the population. Hence why it's peddled so often.
gib444 2 hours ago||||
Nah, that doesn't wash. I can understand a default initial response for 99% of callers (a verbal FAQ as it were), but I do not accept the lack of breaking through. That is because managerial decree has mandated cost-cutting and chosen not to provide any real customer support.

After I exhaust the L1 flowchart I expect some real support. I've done my bit to prove it, I expect them to reply in kind.

The reality is that companies have gone on aggressive cost cutting to maximise profits, and customer support is absolutely included in that.

What next? Shrinkflation is because 99% of people expect smaller portions?

They know getting to L2/L3 support increases costs. Eg applying a refund when legally required, delivering what was contractually agreed etc.

Also, the more we accept people are 'dumb' and dumb down our interactions with them, the dumber everyone will get. Do teachers not need to believe in the capacity of children, lest education totally go to hell?

johnisgood 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, this honestly scares me.
weaksauce 2 hours ago||||
I was a programmer at a small company that had their programmers field tech support calls and there is a good reason they do this... most of the people calling in are dumb as rocks when it comes to whatever they needed help with... some called while driving for help that required you to be in front of a computer.
ceejayoz 2 hours ago||||
> I've found every support department has been trained to treat every single person as if they were a dumb 5 year old.

That's quite reasonable on their part.

I do wish I could take a quiz to bypass it, though.

bityard 3 hours ago||||
Have you tried saying "shibboleet"?
soopypoos 3 hours ago||
I'd rather die.
wat10000 25 minutes ago||||
At most places, 95% of the customers are dumb as rocks. And 95% of the support staff is also dumb as rocks. So they're conditioned to assume everyone calling in is an idiot, and it's very likely that whoever you're talking to is not equipped to understand what you're saying to try to convince them that you're not.

My favorite instance of this was with an ISP that rhymes with Bombast where it was very clear that the modem wasn't getting a signal. The lights indicated it, and I was also able to connect to the modem's internal monitoring and see that it wasn't seeing anything on the line. The support agent kept asking me to reboot my computer.

LtWorf 2 hours ago|||
People suicided because of that, and the UK post office knew fully well it was their own fault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

throwaway27448 1 hour ago||
To be fair, HP lost their competent customers a long time ago.
aworks 43 minutes ago||
FWIW, I'm typing this on my sub-$500 HP laptop and it's fine. I would only call for support as a last resort, and I haven't needed to do that.
iinnPP 5 hours ago||
I worked HP CS in Highschool and during my time there I created a HTML/JS replacement for a unbearably slow tree system that made a 10+ second network call every single question(often 20+ questions and a tree copy was required for notes). Mine was instant.

They fired me for it because my AHT flagged me and it made someone look bad.

At that point (this is at Windows Vista launch) the minimum hold was 25 minutes all day.

junon 4 hours ago||
Quasi-related but I did the same thing at RadioShack for inventory. It was a long process of scanning each product, looking at the scanner and manually verifying the price on the tag.

The tags had a barcode on the back with the SKU and the price that had been printed, but naturally the scanner didn't support that format.

So I brought in my own scanner, scanned all of those into a spreadsheet, then ran a script that checked the same inventory panel that had the updated prices, and printed out a new sheet with just the barcodes that differed to run "inventory" against. Saved us hours per day.

Corporate got pissed (understandably) and shut it down real quick.

BobaFloutist 3 hours ago|||
>my AHT flagged me

Is that "American Hairless Terrier" or "Aldershot Railway Station"?

btreesOfSpring 2 hours ago|||
Acronym use here to single being part of an in-group. It is one of the most annoying shift in tech language over the past decade. I partly blame it on all the certification testing that has popped up over that time frame.

It isn't like there hasn't always been tech acronyms but they are so causally communicated these days without regard for audience.

batch12 2 hours ago|||
This one is a call center metric. Similar to after call work or first call resolution. This one, I believe, is average handle time.
bobbob1921 1 hour ago||||
This comment is so spot on, it’s also big in military circles, especially over past 15 years. It can even be said that frequent (over) use of acronyms is based in insecurity
m463 46 minutes ago|||
Musk's Acronyms Seriously Suck memo:

https://gist.github.com/klaaspieter/12cd68f54bb71a3940eae5cd...

mjuarez 3 hours ago|||
Average Hold Time
Zircom 2 hours ago||
Average Handle Time actually
creddit 4 hours ago|||
If yours was instant, why would your AHT decline? Shouldn’t you be way faster? On many questions you would have saved over 3mins on network calls alone.
imzadi 4 hours ago||
I believe they are saying their AHT went down (calls take less time) which made other people with longer handle times look bad.
iinnPP 4 hours ago||
The AHT value indeed went down 3 minutes below the average, which is generally a good thing so long as you are doing everything well still. All outliers get checked and mine was the lowest. I was honest about the tool, including that it was offline. Their supposed policy was no personal tools and as it was during "probation" (first 90 days in Ontario), they could fire without cause, and did, immediately.
oofbey 4 hours ago|||
AHT?
LordGrey 4 hours ago|||
Not OP, but it is probably either "Average Hold Time" or "Average Handle Time". I supposed the usage here indicated some call center metric that management was expecting in a certain range but the new tool skewed it in a different direction.
iinnPP 4 hours ago||||
Average Handle Time
soopypoos 3 hours ago|||
Assistant Head Teacher
fifilura 4 hours ago||
> made someone look bad

That, or that it DoS-ed the database.

iinnPP 4 hours ago|||
It was offline.
MBCook 2 hours ago|||
And making each click trigger a 20 second DB query doesn’t?

How much you want to bet that’s why it was 20 seconds?

lambdaone 4 hours ago||
What a fantastic company HP used to be, back in the day. They led the way in scientific equipment and calculators, and even desktop computers for a brief moment.

They even made PostScript laser printers that were built like tanks and were a by-word for reliability.

Now they are just famous for being the printer brand everyone hates, and this is just scraping the bottom out of an already empty barrel.

ryukoposting 4 hours ago||
It is staggering how much HP has fallen from grace. I don't think a lot of people my age even know.

If you're a late millennial/early zoomer, you probably know IBM had a sort of "golden age" from the 1960s through the 1980s. You also know AT&T was a juggernaut (even if you can't imagine the scale of "Ma Bell").

HP though? Nobody my age knows how great HP was in the '90s unless they're either a retro computing nerd, or an EE who knows the Agilent/Keysight lore.

The timeline makes it all the more surprising. HP's glory days were the 1990s! A decade after AT&T and IBM were clearly declining! Somehow the recency doesn't play in HP's favor.

They torched their reputation so quickly and so thoroughly that I can't think of any comparisons. As far as I know, the only companies who did it faster were fraudsters, the Enrons and FTXes of the world.

cogman10 2 hours ago||
That was basically entirely on Carly Fiorina, Mark Hurd and the board of directors. It's pretty similar to what happened to Boeing.

HP had engineers at the helm right up until Fiorina. She came in and destroyed a lot of what made it great to work at HP while not really doing a great job of managing the company.

Then Hurd came in and he just gutted the company to the delight of the shareholders. I came in right as Hurd went out as an intern. The place was in shambles when I got there. He'd fired and outsourced everything he could. The IT there was a complete joke. It was actually insane that HP decided to outsource IT operations.

ryukoposting 1 hour ago||
Ooooooh, there must be a story there. I think I get the same high from corporate horror stories that my wife gets from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

I yearn for the day that I'm in a stable enough career position to write about some of the shitshows I've seen.

cogman10 2 minutes ago||
Not much of a story. Like I said, I was an intern so I mostly heard this stuff from my coworkers (it's been a while too).

My boss was a manager in IT and they were fortunate enough to get a heads up before the shitshow hit. They moved departments right before everyone in IT got laid off.

I had requests to IT that I had put in at the beginning of my internship which were just getting handled by the end of my internship.

Real basic stuff like getting my badge was a nightmare. I had to make a 3 hour drive to another building just to get my badge. The appointment to do that took 3 months, which meant my coworkers had to let me into the office and past security every day.

General office supply and admin was really bad. I was seated in a broken chair for my entire internship. Employees were buying their own office furniture like chairs because there basically was nobody at the helm doing basic recs like that.

The IT firm we contracted out to was obviously one that mostly serviced the likes of banks or chain restaurants. The stuff they technically "owned" they were completely detached from. The only stuff they knew how to do was active directory management stuff. But like I said, they were extremely slow and backed up. Understandable because HP is huge company to contract out to.

Leadership was a total mess. I had like 3 different bosses I technically reported to and it was never super clear to me in the org chart exactly how I was supposed to be positioned in the company.

segmondy 2 hours ago|||
Well, it's not the same HP. If there was ever a case that Ship of Theseus is not the same it's with companies. It just takes but a few replacement to get an entirely different company, mostly same people, same name, same business, completely different. Yet alone when the company has turned over everyone over decades, including customers. This is not the HP we knew.
tonyedgecombe 4 hours ago|||
They were dragged screaming and kicking into offering PostScript. Their page description language was PCL, an inferior (although sometimes faster) offering.
BobaFloutist 3 hours ago|||
>Now they are just famous for being the printer brand everyone hates

They're not bad for $300-500 upgradeable Costco/Best Buy laptops, especially since Dell has deteriorated and Chromebooks exited their honeymoon period at escape velocity.

drewg123 4 hours ago|||
I'll always despise them (and their Itanium) for killing the DEC Alpha CPU off after they acquired it along with Compaq.
dreamcompiler 3 hours ago||
Friend worked at HP in the old days before (as he put it) the company got "Carly'd."
g947o 4 hours ago||
Marginally related:

I have been an Android user for almost 15 years. A recent incident makes me seriously think about whether I should get an iPhone (other than all the privacy/sideloading/security discussions)

I have a Samsung phone with a "protection plan" which takes care of certain repairs. I did crack the phone screen once, so I took it to a ubrealifix store to get the screen replaced. I was told that I either need to wait till the next day, or bring it early in the day so that it can be done by the end of the same day.

That store somehow is closed for half of the year for no reason. The next closest store is about 20 minutes of drive away, with the same thing -- arrive early or wait overnight.

Meanwhile, these repairs are straightforward repairs at genius bar that can be done within about an hour, any time of the year.

I had similar experience with laptop repairs. Apple and Intel (NUC lines) were top tier, and I was able to get back my device quickly. Not so for other manufacturers.

Apple devices come with a premium price, but as my life gets more complex, I realize that my time is worth more than the money I save on the hardware.

ectospheno 3 hours ago|
Indeed. The older I get the more I optimize for my time spent over almost all other factors. I want to enjoy life more.
doubled112 3 hours ago||
The older I get, the more money I have available to optimize for time spent.

A man I worked with told me that eventually his entire toolbox was a VISA. He could fix just about anything, he just couldn't be bothered anymore unless it seemed like fun.

I didn't get it then, in my early 20s. In my mid 30s, with a couple of kids and a million other things to get done, shut up and take my money.

Android phones to tinker with became an iPhone that just works for years. 15 year old VWs turned into 3 year old Toyotas. Probably other choices I've made without realizing it too.

closeparen 4 hours ago||
In high school I worked at a VAR that had partnerships with HP, among others (Cisco, Microsoft, etc). Our partnership gave us access to a special support line where a fluent English speaker picked up quickly, talked to you like you had seen a computer before, didn't enforce a script, and issued a return authorization with minimal hassle.

At that time, only Amazon came close on the consumer side.

mmooss 1 hour ago||
I've seen that option with other major vendors too. It's always worth the extra cost for a business - incidents' internal time to resolution, labor costs, and downtime (which impact user productivity) can drop dramatically.

It also reduces frustration and improves morale for the support staff, who, reasonably, want to deal with professionals.

halapro 3 hours ago||
That gets expensive fast. Most phone support tech is composed of average gents who are given a 60 minutes introduction to the system and wished good luck. So cheap, so many unemployed people to choose from.
lich_king 4 hours ago||
I don't even think if singling out Dell is useful. Most US companies have long decided that providing good customer support is a drag on revenue and that you can get away with not providing it if the product is problem-free for 99% of your users.

Have you tried calling UPS with an atypical problem? Bank of America? United? It's all the same, and the thing is, you don't find out until you actually have a problem with the service you purchased.

There are some exceptions to this rule, for example many brokerages have real customer support. Amazon stands out too - they're not prepared to handle anything unusual, but their model is to refund you almost no matter what.

But by and large, it's absolutely awful in the US and I'm often positively surprised when I need to interact with customer support in other countries, where you actually can reach a courier about your delivery, etc.

tristor 31 minutes ago||
> United?

FWIW, Airlines are actually great /if/ you're a frequent flyer. I get great service from United on the phone and did so previously from Delta, but in both cases I was a frequent traveler and so they automatically route your call into a better queue with better trained staff.

drstewart 3 hours ago||
Wow, other countries sound like utopia! Can you tell me how to reach RyanAir by phone and how long it will take? How about Evri? China Southern?
aboardRat4 2 hours ago||
China Southern is okay if you speak Chinese.
fancyfredbot 5 hours ago||
Someone presumably pitched this idea within HP and other people agreed it was something they should try. I guess probably HP didn't put its best and brightest in charge of call centres but still, isn't that sort of amazing?

I wonder if it's the same people who eventually decided it was a bad idea after all, or whether some other group discovered what was happening and got them to stop.

Macha 3 hours ago||
I’ve seen it pitched here even, with the idea that deflecting some call volume will make call centre jobs less hell. The thing it misses is that call center jobs are hell because they’ve used metrics to optimise to the minimum number of staff, and any reduction in average call volume will just result in the company cutting staff, so now staff still have the same workload but callers are XX minutes of waiting more frustrated.
whizzter 5 hours ago|||
Optimizing the wrong thing, probably wanted to shave customer support costs by having lower call volumes, but those that need support probably were hanging onto the calls since nobody that can fix things calls support (so no savings) AND reduced customer satisfaction.
halapro 3 hours ago|||
I think HP was absolutely right in doing this. How many times have you opened a GitHub issues only to come back an hour later with "nvm I figured it out" and close it?

The hope is always that you figure it out autonomously.

nkrisc 1 hour ago||
If offering free support is too expensive, then they shouldn’t offer free support, instead of externalizing the costs by wasting the time of every customer who calls.

Charge callers some small fee and refund it if it was a real issue.

archerx 5 hours ago|||
Let’s not kid ourselves, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were hoping people would just hang up and give up. This would save money in the short term but lose money in the long term but that’s what you get when the current quarter is all that matters.

Anyway my experience with HP has taught me to never buy their products ever again.

Foobar8568 4 hours ago|||
Depending of the country, legislation (and changes in them), the waiting time might be taxed as well. So a way to recoup some little costs.
dfxm12 5 hours ago||
It depends what your goal is. If HP gets charged per call answered, then their goal is to minimize the number of calls they answer. If they see a most of their calls are like "my internet is slow" or the laptop won't turn on because it's not charged up, it's easy to see how this could be approved. Same thing if they've just spent a ton of money on some AI chat agent that they need to justify as well.
jqpabc123 6 hours ago||
Just further cements HP's position as one of the most anti-consumer multi-national companies in existence.
alnwlsn 5 hours ago||
You would never suspect they once made some of the world's finest test/scientific equipment.
bombcar 5 hours ago|||
I'd argue that their excellent test equipment and printers allowed this to happen; anyone who made generic shit would have been quickly killed by all the blunders they made.
StableAlkyne 5 hours ago||||
They sort of still do!

It's just HP and HPE split up. HPE took all the nice enterprise stuff, plus the supercomputing business (they own Cray). HP took the consumer stuff, and proceeded to milk as much as they could.

rnrn 4 hours ago|||
No, wrong decade and wrong split - the test & measurement equipment and scientific equipment was long gone from HP at the time of the HP -> HP inc + HPE split. It ended up in Agilent (1999) and from there Keysight.

HP semiconductors went HP -> Agilent -> Avago, now broadcom.

StableAlkyne 48 minutes ago||
Interesting, had no idea they used to make proper lab equipment
_ks3e 4 hours ago||||
The spinoff for lab and scientific equipment (Agilent, 1999) happened long before the HP/HPE split (2015).
pjmlp 4 hours ago||||
And great technologies as well, HP-UX (Vault was one of the first UNIX containers), Modula-3 (Olivetti/Compaq became part of HP), ...
justin66 3 hours ago||
Those HPUX machines were hot!

No, seriously, sometimes they caught on fire.

pjmlp 52 minutes ago||
Interesting, I used HP-UX across a few years, but never heard of heat moments that would require using an extinguisher on the server room.
bell-cot 5 hours ago|||
Rome once ruled the greatest empire on earth. Vs. look at the last few centuries of Italian history. Regression to mediocrity seems an inescapable part of human endeavor.
aurizon 5 hours ago|||
I love the way they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with their actions
onetokeoverthe 6 hours ago||
[dead]
xg15 4 hours ago||
> Some HP workers were reportedly unhappy with the mandatory hold times, with an anonymous “insider” in HP’s European operations reportedly telling The Register, per its Thursday report: “Many within HP are pretty unhappy [about] the measures being taken and the fact those making decisions don’t have to deal with the customers who their decisions impact.”

Sounds to me like some customers who did get through after the 15 minutes then complained about the wait times to workers, which means the workers had to lie about the cause.

imzadi 4 hours ago||
As someone who has worked in a call center, it's not just that they complain, but they complain a lot and become much more difficult to work with. A customer who has been on hold for a long time can take twice as long to resolve because they spend so much time complaining and refusing to do what you ask them to do.
duskdozer 4 hours ago|||
Wow, you mean to say intentionally pissing off people who are already probably pissed off makes them more difficult to work with? That doesn't sound right.
temporallobe 4 hours ago|||
Yeah it’s almost like purposely frustrating people has negative consequences, which HP completely overlooked.
Macha 3 hours ago||
HP didn’t care, that was a problem for the low level support staff and the customers, not whatever exec was hoping to show reduced call volumes -> reduced staffing levels -> savings.
darth_avocado 3 hours ago||
The fact that I’m calling an HP support line automatically means I’m annoyed. Keeping me waiting for 15 mins will only leave me inflamed. I have better emotional regulation but dealing with customer service sometimes pushes me to the “being assertive but polite” phase, which a lot of people will just skip. And for the workers, there’s only so much abuse you can take in a day.
vjvjvjvjghv 4 hours ago|
American companies seem to increasingly hate their own customers. Add random fees, make products worse and provide terrible support. In a functioning market small competitors would take away the business of the big players but with the lack of monopoly enforcement they just buy their competition. Not sure where this is leading but it's not a good trend.
laughing_man 4 hours ago|
HP has plenty of competition. What they're doing is suicidal.
kykat 3 hours ago||
I honestly don't know who is still buying HP products, haven't seen one around me in years, probably just clueless people walking into a store and thinking "I've heard this name before"
vjvjvjvjghv 1 hour ago||
My employer buys HP products
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