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Posted by WhyNotHugo 6 hours ago

404 Deno CEO not found(dbushell.com)
205 points | 139 commentspage 2
irickt 5 hours ago|
The article is mostly a rant about Deno not making a public statement about layoffs. This links to the individual statements about leaving: https://www.reddit.com/r/Deno/comments/1rwjaeb/whats_going_o...
paxys 2 hours ago||
> I wanted to know if the hundreds of hours I’d spent mastering Deno was a sunk cost

Hundreds of hours? I'm sorry but if you truly needed that much time to find your way around an incredibly straightforward runtime that's on you. Skills for Deno, Node.js, Bun, Cloudflare Workers, browser-based JS and all the rest are like 99% transferable. If Deno doesn't work for you then use something else. It would probably be simpler to switch than writing all these aggressive blog posts.

balamatom 20 minutes ago|
The one that wasted me hundreds of hours was TypeScript on Node with ESM. The most common, familiar, boring stuff which everyone is intimately familiar with, right?

Got shanghaied into TS-land right around Node 16 when they and TypeScript imposed mutually incompatible handling of ESM modules (that extensions mess).

Not only the type checker fail to understand of the kind of JS I had been shipping (and testing, and documenting, and communicating) up to that point; both the immediate toolchain, and people's whole pattern language around the toolset, were entirely broken as soon as you were doing anything different from the kind of React.js that later became Vercel.

Not only I was able to do 10% of what I was able to do previously conditional on jury-rigging the billion dollar stack to work, I also had a little cadre of happy campers on my ass blatantly gaslighting me that it is all, in fact, working; and suggesting the most inane "solutions" once I'd bent over backwards to demonstrate how there is, indeed, a problem of absurd dimensions, straight outta nowhere.

Later I met more such people. Same people who would insist JS runtimes are not trivially interchangeable, having committed to not examine what they're doing beyond a meager level of abstraction.

I see it as a rather perverse form of "working to spec" (have had to pick up surreal amounts of slack after such characters), but with incentives being what they are you get a cutthroat environment (such as the author of this blog post imagines to be living in), and from a cutthroat environment you get the LLMs eating everyone's breakfasts -- because no matter how yucky a word "synergy" is, synergizin' is that "fake open source" is designed to preclude, throughout the JS ecosystem.

"Fake open source" is how I call MIT/BSD licensed devtools and frameworks from hyperscalers that don't need to do an opencore rugpull because they're a piece of a long-term ecosystem strategy. They benefit from immense decade-long marketing and astroturfing efforts, lending them "default status" in the mindshare; and ultimately serve to carry the vendor's preferred version of reality into unrelated downstream projects. Which is why they often spectacularly fail to respond to the community's needs: they are built to preclude, past a certain point, the empowerment of implementors as a community.

Mastering some of that shit, now there was a sunk cost for me, but in modern JS land all these churning agglomerations play the role of "pay to play" gatekeepers. Considering what that's made the playing field be like, I'm happy pivoting to more niche technology just to keep away from said churning agglomerations.

pjmlp 5 hours ago||
Trying to pull people away from reference tooling requires lots of investment and historical has always failed.

Eventually the reference implementation gets good enough, and that is it.

In JavaScript case, the first error was to ignore compatibility with native addons and existing nodejs modules.

The second was not providing a business value why porting, with the pain of compatibility, one because "it feels better" doesn't release budgets in most companies.

philipallstar 5 hours ago|
In this case I think the reference implementation was created by one of the deno founders.
pjmlp 4 hours ago||
It was, but he went too far with the second attempt.

Also not everyone gets it right, only because they got lucky once, history is full of one hit wonders.

philipallstar 3 hours ago||
Well, indeed. History is full of zero-hitters, with a few nonzero hit-wonders.
babaganoosh89 2 hours ago||
Truth of the matter is Ryan Dahl is a suboptimal CEO. Being able to build good open source software does not have a strong correlation with being able to build a successful business.
zoogeny 3 hours ago||
I have always wanted Deno to succeed. But it just seems to be too full of contradictions.

Their initial baffling stance about package.json was the first bad sign. I almost can't imagine the hubris of expecting devs to abandon such a large eco-system of packages by not striving for 100% support out of the gate. Of course they had to relent, but honestly the damage was done. They chose ideology over practicality and that doesn't bode well with devs.

I think they saw Rust and thought that devs were willing to abandon C++ for a language that was more modern and secure. By touting these same benefits perhaps they were hoping for similar sentiment from the JavaScript community.

Deno has some really good ideas (e.g. the library KV interface). I agree with a lot (but not all) of Dahl's vision. But the whole thing is just a bit too quirky for me to invest anything critical into an ecosystem that is one funding round away from disappearing completely.

mohsen1 4 hours ago||
Why this person is so mean to someone who gifted Deno and Node to the JS ecosystem? It's not fair. They are trying to build a company on top of open source.
shimman 4 hours ago|
Because the model of private capital using open source to make profits is a failure state that we need to get away from. There's no reason why the government can't sponsor open source projects, something tells me the vast majority of open source devs wouldn't mind a system where grants can be reward to projects that the public finds valuable.

That would be much more sustainable than VC rat fucking the commons to make a buck while suckering in devs that were once good community stewards into dry husks that are only formed to generate profit.

phpnode 4 hours ago|||
Ok but those government grants don't really exist today and what you're arguing for is zero sustainability for open source projects. This is certain to lead to the death of open source - there's not even the reputational pay-off any more if the only real consumer is AI.
shimman 4 hours ago||
ah yes the common rebuttal of "but this doesn't exists, so I want the boot to keep stomping on my face. Please don't do anything different! The boot is kinda nice actually now that I sustained enough nerve damage."

Grants are a very effective model of support, it seems to work for entire industries + professions around the world. Even better when there is a body of professionals working democratically to decide which people should be awarded the grants.

Just because you have a failure of imagination doesn't mean others do.

phpnode 4 hours ago||
Bad faith reply. The government grants do not exist, it's not a failure of imagination, I too would like to live in that world, but we don't and aren't likely to any time soon. And even if we did, do you think that Deno would have been likely to receive a grant? I do not.
verdverm 4 hours ago|||
Ideally, the corporations that get immeasurable benefits from open source are a better source for the money. There are multiple ways this can play out, direct payments, putting employees on the project, or contributing their own projects to benefit others.
ozten 2 hours ago||
For me Bun’s dramatic entrance and the a lack of any Deno response that reached my attention effectively evaporated any interest I would have in switching my runtime. I’m already set with my tooling and hosting.
mrtksn 5 hours ago||
What is Deno's business model? How do you build business around a JS runtime? What to they pitch to the early investors even?
embedding-shape 5 hours ago||
> What is Deno's business model? How do you build business around a JS runtime?

Everything else. Seems everyone and their mother are building "platforms", so they can properly lock you in, look at Vercel for example, to get some inspiration where the rest is probably at least aiming.

Not sure why people keep falling for it though, guess it's easy enough to get started that people don't really want to understand deeper, if you can pay someone $XXX/month to not have to think about it, many people tend to go that route, especially if VC-infested.

pjmlp 5 hours ago||
The problem is that outside big corporations, devs nowadays aren't willing to pay for development tooling, although we surely like to be paid.

Thus platforms and SaaS products, seem to be the only way to make sustainable open source products.

re-thc 4 hours ago||
> devs nowadays aren't willing to pay for development tooling

I can't speak generally because it varies but is this really the case here? Other posters have commented on missing features and issues with their product i.e. Deno Deploy so is it not willing to pay or not worth it?

mrtksn 4 hours ago||
Devs are notoriously hard to sell. They are hard to impress(I can do that in a weekend, which is also probably true for Deno anyway) and stingy.
progx 4 hours ago|||
Wait until a big company buy them. That seems not to happen.
verdverm 5 hours ago||
Hosting (Deno Deploy), https://deno.com/deploy/pricing
lloydatkinson 1 hour ago|
I’m starting to think this guys obsession with writing hit pieces about Deno is not at all genuine and perhaps he is being paid.
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