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Posted by novaRom 6 days ago

Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom(undark.org)
902 points | 432 commentspage 2
pclowes 5 days ago|
Anecdotally talking to teacher friends they have significant app fatigue. Multiple apps, crappy chrome books in the class room, they are basically a low grade system admin and IT support on top of trying to teach. Everything is benchmarked and thus gamed.

The older teachers often would rather retire than learn yet another ed tech system. They just want to teach kid not be screen dispensers.

Really feels like all the ed tech is snake oil. Education outcomes are dropping. Elite college are needing more and more remedial classes. Obviously there are multiple factors at play but we should remove complexity unless it delivers decisive results.

hintymad 5 days ago||
Maybe it’s just me, but it’s pretty obvious that screens, such as iPads, are bad for kids' education. The homework on apps like i-Ready is mostly just crappy multiple-choice questions. I fail to see how that actually helps students. They should be challenged and kept in their discomfort zones. They need to experience problem-solving in all its forms and get feedback from teachers on how they solve a problem. They need to practice writing and long-form analysis, and get detailed feedbacks from teachers - things i-Ready just can’t provide. The funny thing is, so many Americans blame the system for inequality while embracing Jo Boalers' nonsense. Yet they flock to screens like moths to a flame, not realizing that wealthy families will just pay for private tutors while the kids without those resources get left behind, when enforcing hgher education standards could be arguably the cheapest thing to do[1]. How's that working out for equality, let alone equity?

[1] Even investing extra time in thoughtfully crafted test papers, focusing on word problems, proofs, and complex derivations, could make a world of difference. How hard is that? China and USSR did it when they were dirt poor. France has been doing it and still produces world-class scientists and engineers. What the fuck is wrong with the American educators? Yeah, I know I know. I'm being emotional. I just don't get how dumbing down education can ever help kids.

verteu 5 days ago|
What does the evidence say?

AFAICT, meta-analyses tend to find a positive effect of tech in education: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...

https://i.imgur.com/IYJLiA1.png

eviks 5 days ago||
> whether the digitalization of classrooms had been evidence-based

There is no indication that the current opposite move is evidence-based either, so it's basically your typical vibe shifts. Might revert back to "digital basics" in another decade or so with identical quotes?

fastasucan 5 days ago|
Usually you have to prove the effect of introducing something new.
lucb1e 4 days ago|||
Seems strange to me, a bit like the evidence required for new foodstuffs without judging the old ones by the same criteria. People have been winging it and now new options would have to be scrutinized before use whereas the old 'wisdom' can just stay in place?

Then again, by comparing new techniques against old ones, presumably the old ones get studied indirectly as well. Guess the glass could be half full with this approach

eviks 5 days ago|||
which, in this case, is a paper book
petterroea 5 days ago||
It's the same in Norway, and news paper chronicles are going as far as saying things like "Now that we learned that we went to far, what do we do with the generation of kids we experimented on?". Food for thought.
lucb1e 4 days ago|
Considering how many old people hold on to beliefs like women belonging at home doing the household and/or that people of color are violent, I'm not sure such a conversation is going to lead anywhere. We let them vote until they die, or authorize someone else to get a second vote (like my 90yo grandma does for my 65yo conservative/racist dad), as though they still have an understanding of society. A good understanding of climate change is barely 40 years old, if the news didn't tell them then they just go no education on the world's biggest ongoing challenge. People have just been letting the old generation be because we can't figure out anything better (I'm also not sure what a good system would look like)
slibhb 5 days ago||
The attempt to restrict screentime is based on today's parents wanting their children to have the same experiences they did, i.e. screens were the exception not the rule in the 90s through the early 2000s. This impulse is understandable, but it's not really about improving learning.

If the goal is actually to do a better job teaching kids, we need to better align incentives/minimize bureaucracy/measure outcomes better/etc. My sense is that there isn't an appetite for those sorts of changes. Largely because they hold children, parents, and teachers accountable in ways that make people uncomfortable.

whizzter 5 days ago||
Yes, there are a lot of people who wants it backwards due to their own experiences.

That said, we had some vision of learning with tailored gamified learning apps, and that has come to be in a certain cases but imho it sometimes also provided a sense of "false" accomplishments as it mostly helped with rote memorization rather than principle understanding.

The apps are in summarization often a rote thing rather than something making for deep exploration, that very forward kids might've benefited from something more "free" but a majority will end up not benefiting.

And often the practical outcome of "digital learning" in Sweden instead ended up being schools trying to save money on books by splashing random PDF's about subjects into teams folders.

Trying to help my kids on subjects often ended up being scouring those teams folders and try to reverse-engineer what the important parts and dependencies of a course has been and then go through that, with a textbook you can just flip through the relevant pages of the chapters they're working on to test my kid and go through what they were having trouble with.

Now a _very_ good teacher might build up a useful corpus (but it takes time/work) and worse teachers/schools (sadly a consequence of Swedens education privatization) often create an worse outcome than with books.

To summarize, Good real textbooks thus gives a far better chance of holding a good baseline level for education, whilst digital tools potentially could do good but in practice creates a risk for a really bad baseline without _all_ parts of the education system being good.

scandox 5 days ago|||
Parents do care about improving learning. I certainly see better outcomes for my kids with book based learning. Mainly because the screen based equivalents have such bad ergonomics at the moment. E-learning "tools" that schools choose seem to be abysmally bad.

For the rest: yeah there's nothing more entrenched than the mindset of the people that run schools. They conceive of their school as the epicentre of all problems and solutions with respect to kids education. They cannot imagine they might be simply irrelevant on some issues.

buellerbueller 5 days ago|||
>The attempt to restrict screentime is based on today's parents wanting their children to have the same experiences they did, i.e. screens were the exception not the rule in the 90s through the early 2000s. This impulse is understandable, but it's not really about improving learning.

Allegations without evidence.

djtango 5 days ago||
What? There's been a bunch of research about how the tactile and 3D experience of touching a book assists in learning and knowledge retention, as does handwriting.

The more senses you engage while learning a thing the deeper and more effective the learning is pretty accepted knowledge at this point.

rvz 6 days ago||
Good.

This is the right decision and should be to go back to the basics, instead of full computer everywhere including iPads, phones and laptops.

Remember the big tech founders / CEOs do not give their kids access to social media, iPads, phones for a reason.

timonoko 5 days ago||
They forgot the ballpoint pen. In 1950 Sweden flowing ink and cursive was the mark of a civilized man. I remember teacher using magnifier to detect cheaters as evil ballpoint technology advanced.
lstodd 5 days ago|
Evil ballpoint is evil. I remember everyone chewing up plastic ballpoint pens into unusablily and also using them as blowguns with chewed paper, whereas nothing of the sort was possible before their introduction. (however, flowing ink also had its uses :) )
shellkr 5 days ago||
I think people are forgetting that handwriting is also a technology. It is kinda a similar shift from using a stick to make fire and a lighter. The more work you put into something the more cognition you are using... so I am not sure those studies are of that much value.. We will not need to write in the future.. we will have AI for that. People are always looking for convenience and it will win in the end.
abyssin 5 days ago||
A few years ago I went back to school. Hoping to manage some sort of Internet addiction, I bought a reMarkable 1 tablet. It did help me, but in retrospect I should've bought a black and white laser printer and a few boxes of paper. The ergonomy of paper is excellent after all, especially for a brain like mine that grew up without computers.

There's a major issue though, which is that course material get designed for use on computer screens first. But I have good hope that llm-based pipelines should help fix this issue.

snkline 5 days ago|
I really like the reMarkable tablets, but they are still not quite the replacement for a paper notebook that I would like. I think the main problem is that the refresh-rate/software is slow enough that trying to "page through your notebook" to find specific notes is a grueling experience. The alternative is to just make lots of one page notes, but things still become difficult to find (not to mention you add a lot of stress coming up with good names for stuff...)
lo_zamoyski 5 days ago|
Good for Sweden. Education really ought to be protected from fad-following "pedagogues" and rapacious businesses looking to cash in selling gimmicks. The great historical educational traditions of the past are as relevant today as they ever were. It is a kind of irrational technological big-P Progressive compulsion to think that technology is magical, that x-done-with-latest-tech is better than x-done-without-latest-tech. Technology for technology's sake. It makes an idol out of technology.
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