Top
Best
New

Posted by naves 1 day ago

Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold(www.jsnover.com)
See also https://x.com/stevesi/status/2036921223150440542 (https://xcancel.com/stevesi/status/2036921223150440542)
752 points | 537 commentspage 3
bananaflag 1 day ago|
This barely mentions Windows Forms, which is the cleanest and fastest way to code Windows GUI apps.

A few years ago, I wanted to prototype something quick and I wrote it in Windows Forms over C# (all code, no visual editor).

grandpoobah 10 hours ago||
I haven't touched it in years but I remember moving to WPF because it had a better answer for binding UI elements to data. But while WPF does have an answer, everything is so fucking verbose and clunky.
Almondsetat 23 hours ago|||
>This barely mentions Windows Forms

Apparently, you do too, since what you said is basically the same as what the article said (.NET wrapper for C#, fastest prototyping to date)

formerly_proven 1 day ago|||
Winforms is a Win32 API wrapper, so on the same level as MFC, not a separate UI framework.
int_19h 22 hours ago||
It is a wrapper, but it's not quite on the same level as MFC. MFC really is a thin wrapper, almost 1:1 in most places. WinForms is more like VCL or VB6 in that it uses Win32 where it can but doesn't design around it, so in practice it's more high-level.
tonyedgecombe 13 hours ago|||
I went from win32/C++ to Windows Forms and I got a huge increase in productivity and quality.

It wasn’t all roses though, the high dpi support was atrocious.

rwmj 12 hours ago||
I always felt the problem with WinForms was the name. For many, many years I assumed it could only do forms (ie for data entry).
rbanffy 23 hours ago||
> From their perspective, gambling on a new managed-code framework had produced the most embarrassing failure in the company’s history

Most embarrassing failure in the company’s history that far.

nullbyte808 22 hours ago||
I would bet in Avalonia UI. It's like WPF but cross-platform. https://avaloniaui.net/
topspin 22 hours ago|
SDRPlay is using Avalonia for its SDRConnect desktop UI. That's the one native application based on Avalonia I've spent significant time in.

It's ok. I give it pretty high marks. There is a good deal of "lowest common denominator" in it, naturally due to cross platform abstraction. But, it's generally nice, and commercial licenses are affordable.

baud9600 22 hours ago||
At Redmond, there was also the Patterns & Practices group (P&P) that tried to make sense of the dev products, and built extra libraries “to show customers how to use them”. They followed the bouncing ball of the frameworks releases from the main development teams. It suggests that it wasn’t clear exactly how you’d use the main products: so P&P said, ‘try it like this.’ I also think the article didn’t say much about MS in the web era. The company survived webdev IMO, but it definitely wasn’t the leader
PeterStuer 14 hours ago||
As an outsider, it always felt that 'internal team politics' were the root cause of Microsoft's technological downfall. This went far beyond the GUI. In 'flagship' offerings like SharePoint or Skype/Lync/Teams you could see the unmixable partial code-bases brutally forced together under a single product name an foisted upon a user-base baffled by how this could have gone so wrong.
rhet0rica 12 hours ago|
A single product name, you say? COPILOT, COPILOT, COPILOT!
hermitcrab 1 day ago||
Microsoft GUI development is a mess. They don't seem to care. Just look at the mishmash of different GUI styles in Windows 11.

Thankfully I have been mostly insulated from it by sticking to Qt and C++ for the last 25 years.

joezydeco 22 hours ago|
Qt/Win is enough to get the job done. Not always pretty, but it works. I used to be somewhat ashamed I never learned the actual Win32 API to write native apps, but now it looks like that was time saved. This is a great article.
nusl 23 hours ago||
This article smells so strongly of AI that I'd be surprised if the author did much of any writing.
boutell 22 hours ago||
I found the article itself very informative and not particularly ai-tastic. But then I got to that infographic at the end. Holy smokes was that disappointing. It seems clear they didn't even bother to read the captions the AI scribbled.
navigate8310 12 hours ago|||
The summary of various frameworks and languages available is very concise and informative though.
belkinpower 22 hours ago||
It starts out alright, and then ends with a pile of classic Claude-isms and an unreadable slop graphic. Like the author got bored of writing it halfway through.
grandpoobah 10 hours ago||
"Unreadable slop graphic" xD
barrkel 22 hours ago||
Windows frameworks got web envy.

Xaml and styling and all sorts to try and compete.

Trouble is, it made desktop development harder, and it didn't win against the web. It left the simple and safe formula of standard and common controls for a designer's playground, but the designers preferred the web. And if you make something for the web, you can package it in Electron and get cross platform cheaply.

jpeter 1 day ago||
So the windows team hates .NET, so they use react webviews and put them in explorer and start menu???
int_19h 22 hours ago||
You have managed to concisely summarize the progress of Windows UI development for the past 15 years, yes.
praisewhitey 1 day ago||
They use react native
supliminal 22 hours ago|
There’s a poster on here who keeps posting and re-posting about their dinner with a Microsoft executive and how they were told Microsoft is all-in on enterprise. Waiting for that copy-paste to make its way over here.

Microsoft keeps footgunning things so hard I think even enterprise might be reluctant to go with them moving forward [0]. I don’t have Netcraft numbers in front of me but I doubt things have notably improved even if they do have a strategy shift to enterprise which includes crapping all over Windows for no good reason.

I’m personally glad FOSS is going strong but that’s a complete aside.

[0] We got burned by Azure as I’m sure many other enterprises have, and they did exactly nothing to remedy/compensate the situation, SLAs be damned. At this point our strategy is to move off of reliance on any Microsoft/windows tech. We moved off of ActiveDirectory not too long ago. Bing/Edge/etc honestly who cares.

mapontosevenths 22 hours ago|
Microsoft was so focused on the enterprise they forgot that enterprises are made up of individual users.

Any trade-off that favors the enterprise in lieu of the user actually benefits nobody in the long term.

nine_k 20 hours ago|||
Crucially, at enterprise sales, those who make putchase decisions are not the actual users (except maybe for Outlook and Excel). They sometimes play golf together with vendors though. This is how stuff like MS Teams of Oracle Forms gets sold: it checks all the compliance boxes, has support, an SLA, "is industry strength", etc.
ProfessorLayton 3 hours ago||
This is true until it isn't though. Blackberry was doing great with enterprise users until people refused to give up their iPhones even at work.
mohamedkoubaa 22 hours ago|||
The end state of genAI is that the end user is the enterprise
Krssst 22 hours ago||
The end state of genAI could as well be a few billionaires being their enterprise and everybody else being unemployed or working at the factory. Robots are not there yet (far from it) and someone needs to build and maintain the thing as well as food for everyone. High unemployment could drive salaries down and make lots of thing unavailable to the common people while making humans cheaper than automation for boring manual work.

That's an extreme scenario but today's politicians are not very keen into redistribution of wealth or prevention of excessive accumulation of economic power leading to exceeding the power of the state itself. I see nothing preventing that scenario from happening.

sph 15 hours ago|||
> High unemployment could drive salaries down and make lots of thing unavailable to the common people while making humans cheaper than automation for boring manual work.

‘I wanted a machine to do the dishes for me so I could concentrate on my art, and what I got was a machine to do the art so now I’m the one doing the dishes’

mikkupikku 12 hours ago||
But you already have a machine that can do the dishes. Like doing the laundry, people forget the machines they already have doing 90% of the work. Soon enough artists will forget that computers can do 90% of their work too.
exe34 15 hours ago|||
The French will lead the way.
Krssst 7 hours ago|||
The French are on their way to put a far-right government in power next year, don't count on them.
mapontosevenths 10 hours ago|||
I imagine that the rabble will need to eat only a few before the rest catch on.
More comments...