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Posted by doctorhandshake 6 hours ago

What being ripped off taught me(belief.horse)
240 points | 141 comments
eckesicle 5 hours ago|
We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do:

- Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner

- Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.

- In the event of a late payment the invoice for the next deliverable shall immediately fall due.

- The consultant shall be entitled to shift deadlines on deliverables in the event of a late payment as a result of any work disruption, without incurring any liability.

- Payment shall be made in X currency, or an exchange rate at X date on Oanda.com shall apply.

- The client is responsible for any bank fees incurred by their, or any intermediary bank. In the event of a SWIFT transaction it shall be made with the OUR payment code.

- The jurisdiction in the event of a conflict shall be England and Wales. Neither party shall be bound by arbitration.

- The client and consultant shall both indemnify the other up to the total value of the contract and shall not under any circumstance be liable beyond X GBP.

We also no longer share downloadable links of our deliverables until they are paid up. They get a view/comment only link for reports/data etc.

We’ve found that clients that aren’t willing to accept these terms won’t pay you either way.

We determine the net days on the invoice based on the credit rating of the client. Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. About 1% of contracts tend to fully or partially default on their payments.

We’re in a particularly credit poor industry but our average delay due to late payment is 23 days. Those clients where we stop delivery pay on average 11 days sooner than those contracts where we don’t stop delivery.

This is based on around 2,000 invoices sent over the last 5 years.

eckesicle 5 hours ago||
Oh and another lesson! Ensuring that each deliverable invoice is small enough that it falls under the simplified claims procedure (in the UK it’s 10,000 pounds) greatly simplifies collection.

It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent.

You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anyway.

ilamont 4 hours ago|||
> simplified claims procedure

I believe this is what we call small claims court in the United States. The threshold varies by state, but it is a very effective way to deal with recalcitrant companies both large and small.

veunes 4 hours ago|||
I think the hidden advantage here isn't even enforcement, it's filtering
k2enemy 1 hour ago|||
> - Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.

Do you mean 8 percent, or 8 percentage points?

eckesicle 1 hour ago||
The exact wording in our contracts and the government guidance is “8% plus the Bank of England base rate”.

They mean “percentage points”.

https://www.gov.uk/late-commercial-payments-interest-debt-re...

As I understand it, from our lawyer, is that this exact wording is automatically enforceable in UK courts and easiest in the event of a dispute. It’s also generally internationally accepted.

fmx 5 hours ago|||
> Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”.

Why ironically? Isn't that exactly what you'd expect?

anonymars 3 hours ago|||
The ironic part is that the clients that don't need the looser payment terms (more time to pay the invoice) are the ones that get them

Kind of mirrors "it's expensive to be poor"

moron4hire 1 hour ago|||
I took "good client" to mean, "is easy to work with/communicates well/knows what they want", not just "pays on time". The inverse being, the ones who don't pay on time were already a pain in the ass to work with.
yellow_lead 5 hours ago||
It seems like none of these terms would have saved OP though
QuarterReptile 5 hours ago|||
I think OP needed "emergency service is cash up front".

In a different domain, this is the painful lesson of almost anyone who tries to help people in a bind -- you can try to help, but yours is unlikely to be the advice that sets them straight, so you shouldn't get too invested with unproven or, especially, proven unreliable actors.

doctorhandshake 5 hours ago||
>> "emergency service is cash up front“

Neatly distilled I believe you are correct

ufmace 2 hours ago||||
It's worth keeping in mind that the only practical "saving" for the OP will result in not doing the job at all, since this client most likely doesn't actually have the money and never will.

It should be, oh, short-term rush job in a foreign country for a sketchy client? That is most definitely cash up front time. Oh, you can't afford that? Sucks to be you, not going to do it.

ng12 5 hours ago||
One thing I learned from consulting is if you position yourself as the "fix your mess" guy you have to be very defensive. Ask for more up-front, and bail at the first sign of underpayment.

Be pleasantly surprised when a poorly run project is being run by nice, honest people. Prep for the opposite.

veunes 4 hours ago||
You're not just delivering expertise, you're stepping into a situation where incentives are already misaligned, expectations are fuzzy, and there's often a cashflow problem hiding somewhere
randomNumber7 1 hour ago||
It sounds counterintuitive but from my experience it are often nice and (somewhat) honest people. They just came after whoever messed it up horribly in the first place and at some point they came to the conclusion that they need some external help.
gnfargbl 6 hours ago||
> A contract is toilet paper

It isn't, but you can't get blood from a stone and squeezing costs money.

It sounds like the entity that the contract is with has no real assets and/or is based in a jurisdiction which is hard to enforce judgements in. That's a case where you need to get paid up-front, which is the real lesson in this article.

andix 3 hours ago|
> That's a case where you need to get paid up-front

Or at least in very small batches and with very short due dates.

avoidyc 5 hours ago||
Worked in the SF tech scene since 2010, and so many founders who I found through YC/HN and AngelList failed to pay me over the years.

Often paid late, but FIVE times, I never got paid at all, one time it was several thousands over the course of months and I almost pursued it in court, but in the end I took the L.

It's always these incubator types, they're the absolute worst clients. They have the cash in the bank too, they often just forget or feel entitled and don't want to back down.

NEVER work for a YC founder.

gavinray 42 minutes ago||
I'd say it's almost something of a rite of passage to get taken advantage of if you're young and working in tech startups. Usually this is in the form of abysmally low pay, along with "Sweat Equity":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_equity

Of course, the startup doesn't go anywhere, and your sweat equity never materializes, so you're left with just the pitiful pay.

I went through this in my late teens/early 20's, along with many friends.

munificent 2 hours ago|||
> NEVER work for a YC founder.

I would generalize this to "don't work for someone whose ability to pay is based on a high-risk gamble".

There are certainly shady people who can pay but don't because they are greedy avaricious bastards. But there are also plenty of people who would like to pay but whose business venture fails and with it goes their funds.

In the author's story, they probably should have concluded fairly early on that a team that wildly incompetent was also unlikely to produce a product that satisfies their client. And if the client doesn't pay, no one gets paid.

Aurornis 4 hours ago||
Good lessons in here, but the part about giving up on legal action because they told him they’d dissolve the entity is questionable. This is where it pays to have a good relationship with a lawyer who will be up front about your chances and the cost of legal action. The sum discussed falls into the difficult range where it could take enough hours to try to collect that you’d be worse off than where you started if the lawyer can’t deliver anything.

However them dissolving the entity and moving their assets and IP around is also not free and will incur overhead, if they actually did it.

Threatening to dissolve the entity seemingly admits that they do have something worth collecting against. In my experience the companies who run out of money just tell you that they’re out of money and they also start losing key employees and your email contacts because they’re not getting paid either. If the company continues to exist and they’re threatening you to not sue, that might be a sign that they do have the money but they’re relying on intimidating contractors to not try collecting it.

Legal action is not free, so all of this has to be weighed.

EDIT: I should explain how I know this. Younger me took a job with a startup that got in over its head with spending but the CEO didn’t want the party to stop. His strategy was to stop paying any vendors and use the remaining cash flow to only pay past invoices for vendors that we needed something from (more work, more product) or anyone who looked like they were going to sue us. If someone got lawyers involved, they got paid. Needless to say I didn’t keep that job very long.

jagged-chisel 2 hours ago|
I don’t know this for certain, IANAL, but it seems to me if they’re threatening to dissolve the entity, that could open the owners to personal liability.

Definitely bring it up with your lawyer.

InMice 5 hours ago||
> I missed the month of May with my 2-year-old kid. My wife cared for a 2-year-old alone.

The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?

Aurornis 4 hours ago||
> The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities?

The author does contracting in niche topics. When your contracting domain is uncommon you have to go where the work is.

You can charge higher prices for niche work and therefore tolerate more time in between contracts. This person may be spending more time not working and with his family than the typical FTE in this arrangement, even if the jobs occasionally require them to fly somewhere for a month.

cortesoft 10 minutes ago||
It sounds like he has a lot of general skills, too. I guess we all have different priorities, but I would work whatever job to not have to leave my kid for that long.
michaelt 31 minutes ago|||
I used to have an uncle who did emergency oil well repair. He'd get a call from his boss, then he'd be on the next flight to whatever remote offshore drilling platform or exotic dictatorship had need of his services.

Apparently doing emergency repair work can be extremely well paid.

(His wife was fine with it, but when there's great inconvenience for the family balanced by great pay for the family, you've got to get paid)

charles_f 4 hours ago|||
You need a job to sustain a family. From the post it seems like author accepted the sacrifice for the amount he was supposed to be paid.
close04 5 hours ago||
Reads to me like the author is trying to elicit some empathy. It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job. Not getting paid couldn’t have factored into that decision.
zamadatix 11 minutes ago|||
The assumption with taking a contract is it's better than what your other options will be to get the same total income/time worked. Especially for specialized work like this, taking the contract means you can get multiples of the time back in the following months. When you don't get paid you end up without that time back the income was supposed to provide (and you're in 1 months less of savings to boot).
0x3f 5 hours ago||||
> It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job.

Or... maybe he needs income to exist.

InMice 5 hours ago||
He doesnt provide any context for that if so and if you look around the site, doesn't seem like the case at all. More like he just decided on the phone something interested him enough to bounce indefinitely.
Imustaskforhelp 43 minutes ago|||
They work within a niche space, as others have said, they follow where the work is, So they are able to charge more which I hope is able for them to survive in modern economy and be able to give more time to their family.

atleast that's my interpretation of it of how logic might follow if they are working in niche space, many people seem to be applying the logic onto themselves into completely standard situation, but I don't suppose that is the case here.

Hope this helps in genuinely understanding their situation, from my reading/thinking about it.

rglover 5 hours ago||
Never do anything on faith or as a handshake deal. Always ensure you get paid (hint: escrow is kryptonite for weasels). Trust everyone, just not the devil inside them.

Also, mandatory: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

DamnInteresting 58 minutes ago||
Back in my freelancer days, I learned this lesson the hard way, and I became strict about payments (half in advance, the other half required to turn over the final work). But when someone I'd known for years had an emergency, and needed their software patched over a weekend, I made an exception and delivered the work in good faith. And then they tried to get out of paying for it. I had to harangue them for months to get the check.

The lesson I learned is that it doesn't matter how long they've been your friend, when it comes time to pay, they may still try to stiff you. The value of your service diminishes infinitely after it has been performed.

chrisweekly 5 hours ago|||
> “Starting work without a contract is like putting on a condom after taking a home pregnancy test"

Choice quote from the linked talk (aptly titled "F*ck you, pay me").

leviathant 3 hours ago|||
Yes! I regularly share a link to Mike's talk - I was about to post it myself before scanning the comments.
bob1029 5 hours ago||
I've started operating in really granular units of work. Like less than $1000 per. Cash on delivery. This won't work with all clients and all jobs, but there are places where it does work very well. Advantages include being able to avoid paper contracts altogether. Verbal agreements and a 4 column xlsx that is reviewed monthly are all that seem to be required with some of my clients.

If I don't get paid for one day of work, I will probably get over it in a few hours. If I don't get paid for six months of work, we will have a serious problem. The tighter and more incremental we can make the delivery process, the less likely anyone gets screwed.

If a party is pushing hard for long-term contracts or large up-front sums of payment, I would walk away from that transaction unless there was a literal golden goose sitting in their lap.

lnsru 5 hours ago|
I am also trying to set granular milestones and get paid every 1000€. Not provide 20000€ work and then start looking for my money. I can live with a loss of 1000€, but missing 20000€ will impact negatively my mortgage and investment plan.
cainxinth 5 hours ago||
I have a friend who retired but still does some contract work. They were on salary their whole career and are not used to sending invoices and tracking down payments. One of their clients was late paying and my friend wasn't concerned, but I encouraged them to be diligent about insisting on being paid on time. I have been a freelancer for over a decade and in my experience, the further away you get from a bill, the less real it becomes to the person who owes it. They start forgetting what the project was, or worse, start questioning why they even have to pay for it. You have to stay on top of these things or they can spiral out of control.
bityard 2 hours ago|
Just for my own general curiosity, once a bill is overdue, how often do you nag the customer about it? Or does it look more like an escalation process? (Start out with a polite email, then a phone call, then a phone call to their manager/business partner, etc?) Do you ever "fire" customers who always pay, but always pay late and only after they've been reminded 3 times?
cainxinth 1 hour ago||
They get 30 days to pay. I used to start sending reminders if they were late by even a day past that, but I quickly learned that can unnecessarily embarrass or annoy some clients, so now everyone gets a two week grace period after the 30 days are up.

I send a gentle reminder just to my immediate point of contact to start. If that doesn't work, I start sending more business-like requests for payment every week, and I CC anyone I think might help make it happen.

I've never fired anyone, and everyone has eventually paid (knock wood), but there have been times when I assumed the money was a lost cause (though never five figures worth like the person who shared this blog post).

But more than once, I've had a client contact me and request new work, and I've had to remind them they still have an unpaid invoice. I'll tell them I can't start anything new until the old work is paid. They almost invariably blame the delay on their billing department, and the money eventually finds its way to me.

apt-apt-apt-apt 5 hours ago|
Sometimes you just have to get scammed to be able to recognize scams. Seems obvious to outsiders, but can be hard to see when you're in it.

Some favorites:

- No way they would actually screw me over! We're buds/they got me tiger balm/they paid some/I did them a solid

- Thin veneer of safe fallbacks that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Legal or other 'repercussions'

- Endless delays and excuses (though it's usually too late by this point)

veunes 4 hours ago|
Yeah, a lot of it only becomes obvious in hindsight because each individual signal is easy to rationalize away
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