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Posted by akyuu 7 hours ago

Spain to expand internet blocks to tennis, golf, movies broadcasting times(bandaancha.eu)
391 points | 390 commentspage 2
btown 3 hours ago|
Are there any ways in Cloudflare to mitigate against this? If all sports matches basically mean "our clients can't access our Cloudflare backed app in Spain" then it's worse than fewer-nines; it's a correlated event that could disrupt things like travel checkins, etc. - and it's a hard pitch to say "Cloudflare costs us money and it has no solution for its network putting our Spanish arrivals at risk."
jwr 6 hours ago||
This is incredibly stupid, but don't laugh at Spaniards: your (and my) lawmakers are equally likely to enact similarly stupid laws. It's mind-boggling how stupid the world can be sometimes.
abirch 6 hours ago||
They pass stupid laws with impunity here in America.

Sadly, an alien viewing our behavior would deduce a rule such as: as long as the voter is the same tribe as the candidate, the voter must vote for candidate no matter how corrupt.

kristianp 3 hours ago|||
However laws that stop large corporations' websites being accessible would never be passed in the US. Government for the corporation.
keybored 6 hours ago||||
If they pass laws “with impunity” you can’t blame the voters that hard.
b65e8bee43c2ed0 5 hours ago|||
the voters don't vote on issues, and there are no consequences for breaking campaign promises. and direct democracy is le bad, of course (since Brexit).
tialaramex 4 hours ago|||
Direct Democracy is bad because even if people were capable of doing the hard work to actually decide on coherent trade-offs, for which there is precious little evidence, they do not have time which means we should hire a few people to do that hard work, and that's what an Indirect Democracy is.
AlBugdy 3 hours ago|||
I think direct democracy is bad for a couple of reasons (some are probably rephrased versions of another reason):

* not everyone can be an expert on everything;

* people can't know what they're not sufficiently knowledgeable about;

* people would like to vote (if it was quick and easy) for anything they have even the slightest opinion on;

* people could be manipulated much easier than an expert or than an educated representative influenced by experts would;

* people value their voice and opinion and themselves too much;

* only a minority of people would vote on lots of things, skewing the results; a majority would vote on just a few issues;

* education fucking sucks everywhere - people don't have enough information about different topics, they don't know how to get said info, how to analyze it or how to filter trash or spam;

* people passionate enough about something will vote on it much more than people not passionate enough about it - with the caveat that someone can be passionate "for X" but not that passionate "against X" - which can lead to the phrasing of the question deciding who will vote;

* it would be easier to bribe someone to vote on something they don't care about (or don't realize they care about) - you wouldn't vote for a new supreme leader but might vote for a specific change in laws about metallurgical unions (gave it as an example as I know nothing about the topic so I "don't care" about it).

If people were educated, had critical thinking, knew how to spot manipulation, weren't greedy and were able to think about abstract things, direct democracy might work. But people aren't, don't, don't, aren't and aren't.

amarant 3 hours ago||||
I've always wondered if a hybrid system could work. You'd need a lot of voting infrastructure, and you need online voting, which means you need a reliable and quick method of online identification. Scandinavian countries fill those prerequisites, perhaps other places do too.

The idea is basically that you give a politician a mandate to use your vote. Whatever your chosen politician votes for will count as their and your vote. If you happen to disagree with your chosen politician on a given question, you can manually vote in that question. Your chosen representatives vote in that question will then be worth one vote less, since you've effectively used it yourself.

In the end we get the best of both worlds: voters don't have to vote in every single issue, but they can should they choose to. When they don't vote themselves, a politician they've chosen gets to use their vote, in a representative-like manner.

croemer 3 hours ago||
That's pretty much Switzerland. Indirect democracy for most things, but if enough people disagree with what the government does or they feel strongly about something the government isn't doing they can call a referendum.
amarant 3 hours ago||
Huh...I guess that means it does work: From the outside at least Switzerland appears to work pretty well!
tormeh 3 hours ago|||
I don't know. Direct democracy seems to work well in Switzerland and badly in California. So direct democracy is clearly not bad per se. We know it can work.
dwattttt 3 hours ago||
Don't you bring nuance into this, this is the internet. Let alone suggest a populace would need to know it.
epistasis 3 hours ago||||
Long before Brexit, I was bemoaning the bad effects of direct democracy in California for constitutional amendments that pass with a simple majority. A good amount of the dysfunction in California is from these sorts of propositions that can not be overruled or modified by the legislature. And the public debate about them is largely divorced from their actual content, quite frequently. You still encounter people that think that Prop 13 is a about letting grandmas stay in their homes in retirement by sheltering them from any increase in property taxes, but it is a much much larger handout to commercial real estate and investment properties than it is to grandmas, for example!

Even a slightly higher threshold than majority vote would be good for direct democracy. And constitutional amendments should either have a higher bar, or should automatically expire after X years unless there's a second vote to verify that the change should actually stay in effect.

I tend to vote no on all ballot propositions automatically due to the bad effects of permanent changes being far too easy with too little substantive information provide to voters.

mr_00ff00 4 hours ago||||
I don’t know if just one instance means direct democracy is bad. For example, in the US referendums have been used a lot for issues that are popular for voters, but politicians won’t touch.

(Weed legalization in many states, Abortion protection in Missouri I believe)

You could also argue Brexit. Ultimately, most of the UK was okay with shooting themselves in the foot to feel more independent like the good olds days. Maybe was wrong long-term, but if it’s what the people wanted, then maybe it’s good. Politicians never would have done it despite the people wanting it.

wat10000 4 hours ago||
I'm anti-Brexit (not that it matters, not British) but also pro-referendum in general. One modification I'd like to see is higher thresholds for more significant actions, especially ones that are difficult to reverse like this was. I don't think something as huge as Brexit should be decided on the basis of 50%+1. There should be a bias towards the status quo, and this should require maybe 60% or 2/3rds to overcome.
AlBugdy 3 hours ago||
I'm afraid that could lead to political instability. Maybe not, but I imagine if 59% of people vote "X" but 60% were needed, people could revolt or at least drastic and unpredictable changes in voting in the next elections could happen - "how can this political regime ignore the voice of the majority?!".

You'd need most of the people to understand why 60 or 66.(6)% of people are needed to decide something and really believe in this threshold. And Y% of the populace is different psychologically than Y% of elected officials (in cases where a supermajority of officials are needed to pass Z in a forum like parliament/house/senate).

wat10000 4 hours ago|||
Even if you accept that party affiliation determines the vote, there are primaries. Which see horribly low turnout, which is 100% the voters' fault.
tl 6 hours ago|||
This is America. We gerrymander the vote and blame the victim. Sorry you got downvoted.
wredcoll 3 hours ago|||
[flagged]
josu 4 hours ago|||
>enact similarly stupid laws.

No new law was enacted. The ISPs are enforcing a court order.

tossandthrow 4 hours ago|||
This has not so much to do with the law, but the execution of it.

It seems vastly inproportionate. And is likely severe overstepping.

The issue is that spain does not have a backstop. It is a completely institutional failure.

That's why you can laugh at them. Because this level of instutional failure should not happen where I come from.

dminvs 3 hours ago|||
Hopefully, reaction is read as to the action, not some categorization of the actor

"hate the sin, love the sinner", or something

themafia 6 hours ago|||
> how stupid the world can be

This isn't stupidity. It's corruption.

TacticalCoder 5 hours ago|||
> This isn't stupidity. It's corruption.

Those two go hands in hands.

TeMPOraL 5 hours ago||
Only if you're all playing the same game. Corruption usually happens because some players have higher priorities.
gib444 4 hours ago|||
Speaking of which, the PM is surrounded by people a judge is currently indicting for various forms of corruption

His wife, right hand man, etc

What's that saying about the company you keep...

wyan 3 hours ago|||
Not lawmakers in this case, but judges having no understanding of what they're ruling on.
wolvoleo 3 hours ago|||
Last year a judge almost blocked all of telegram for everyone :( also because of a complaint of some large telco. Luckily they realised the extreme impact of this decision and reverted it.
betaby 3 hours ago|||
That's why one company should not be allowed being an ISPs and a media company.
wahnfrieden 6 hours ago|||
It describes hierarchy and power more than it does intelligence
wartywhoa23 4 hours ago||
The epitaph on the tombstone of this civilization shall read:

Zealously mistook malice for stupidity.

mgilroy 3 hours ago||
One of the issues is that you can't watch what you want on one paid for service.

I would happily watch my football team play on the telly if I could watch all the games for a reasonable price. However, you can't pay to watch all the games from a single service and you generally have to sign up for a prolonged period or pay significantly more than I'm willing to pay to watch the game if I've got the time.

The reality is that the value that the media companies place on watching a game on telly is significantly higher than the value I get from watching a game. I understand that others place a higher value on being able to watch a match or any other sport. I don't.

Paying hundreds of euro or pounds per season to attend a match is one thing. I accept that paying for police stewards and ambulances cost a lot of money. Paying the same to watch some games across multiple companies is of no interest to me.

Let me watch all my teams games for a tenth the cost of a season ticket and I'll probably pay.

embedding-shape 5 hours ago||
Ironically, I live in Spain, and at this very minute, there is a football game going on (Atlético Madrid vs Barcelona) which I literally just learned about because I could just hear my neighbors scream about the 0-1 score, and with Vodafone ISP I'm not experiencing the block of Cloudflare right now. https://hayahora.futbol/ also shows "NO" incorrectly (if you're being strict about the title+domain). I'm guessing it's specifically because it isn't a La Liga game, it's UEFA Champions League. At least ISPs aren't indiscriminately blocking things without court orders, which seems to have been specifically about La Liga.
iamzenitraM 4 hours ago||
The site tracks not football matches, but when blocks occur, and, right now, there are not any.

(The whole joke about the site is trying to detect football happening via internet blocks, as otherwise myself personally I wouldn't know at all otherwise about matches happening)

pier25 4 hours ago||
> I'm guessing it's specifically because it isn't a La Liga game, it's UEFA Champions League

Probably just a matter of time. The article mentions:

"Lo bloqueos aplicarán "todos los días de emisión de eventos deportivos en directo", arrancando por primera vez con el partido de eliminatoria de la Champions League entre el Atlético de Madrid y el Barcelona que se celebra hoy martes 14 de abril."

elcapitan 5 hours ago||
The internet was a mistake anyway, they should just ban it completely and be done with it.
foo12bar 3 hours ago||
Offtopic, but after clicking on this story and going to google news, my feed is flooded with all kinds of sports articles, whereas before there were none.

A grim reminder that google does track you all over the internet.

littlecranky67 4 hours ago||
Quick reminder, it is not LaLiga (the football association) taking court action, but Telefónica the telco provider. In Spain their brand is Movistar, in UK and Germany more commonly known as O2. So there is something we, the consumer, can do - avoid all products Telefónica, in Spain and elsewhere to express the want for a free and uncensored internet.
dpoloncsak 4 hours ago||
Any word on if Starlink is being forced to comply? They have ISPs blocking DNS requests iirc, seems like Starlink may be a viable alternative?

Not that you should have to find a new ISP due to soccer being pirated too much, just wondering really

Edit: Oh...seems VPNs work. That's probably much easier as a work-around

dzhiurgis 1 hour ago|
Oh man, if there was one way to win Spaniard commie hearts for Elon is to solve sports streaming.
joshmn 5 hours ago||
I ran a sports streaming service ("pirated sports streaming service" ?). The US Government said I was making $250k MRR as a solo indie dev (I wasn't, but that's great validation). I'm pretty qualified to talk about this.

The shitty part about what Spain is doing is that it punishes its own residents who have nothing to do with piracy.

Sports piracy is fundamentally different than music or movie piracy. The Spotify analogy that gets tossed around is wrong. Steam is less wrong but still wrong. Music piracy got "solved" because the labels decided that some revenue was better than no revenue, and the math works when you have a bunch of product in your back pocket that cost you nothing to distribute; gaben made piracy slightly less convenient to those in developed countries.

Sports rights are valuable because they're exclusive and because they're live. In the US, there are blackouts around sports: if you're physically located in New York (at least, according to whatever IP address data vendor a platform is using), you're unable to watch the New York Knicks using league-sanctioned products. That's the US version of this—restricting access to the content itself to protect the rights holder's revenue. It's internal logic and fundamentally sound (though infuriating) if you're one of them.

This is without a doubt categorically worse. A blackout says "you can't watch this game" and Spain is saying "you can't access the internet while this game is on, whether you're interested in the game or not." It's as if the NBA convinced the DOJ to shut down half the internet every time a game was on, just in case.

Before it was DMCA notices (useless) -> lawsuits (whack-a-mole, check TorrentFreak) -> ??? -> infrastructure-level blocking. (I'm an outlier for many reasons but we won't go into those.) Each step is more destructive and less effective than the one preceding it. Spain has reached the end of the playbook, thanks to political interests: ban the internet!

Fans are the product. La Liga's real customer is Movistar, who pays roughly a billion euros a year for exclusivity so they can bundle it into packages nobody would pay for otherwise. The IP blocking isn't an anti-piracy measure—I'd argue there is no such thing as anti-piracy but that's a different thread. The IP blocking is a signal to the next bidder: the government will protect your exclusivity at any cost, even if that cost is the country's internet.

tencentshill 5 hours ago|
It is really €200/month? At what point is it cheaper to buy transportation and a ticket to see events in person?
swiftcoder 4 hours ago|
Look, I'd be more supportive of this sort of thing if it worked - pirated futbol streams are rampant despite the blocking.

And the blast radius often is the entire devstack. Last weekend they blocked Cloudflare and GitHub simultaneously.

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