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Posted by Kaibeezy 22 hours ago

Alberta startup sells no-tech tractors for half price(wheelfront.com)
1880 points | 624 commentspage 2
uticus 20 hours ago|
> The farm equipment industry spent 20 years adding complexity and cost. Ursa Ag is wagering that a significant number of farmers never wanted any of it.

Nice tag line but not a complete picture. The "significant number of farmers" in terms of actual market spend driving the equipment industry is not mom-and-pop outfits but rather agri-industrial complexes with machines to match. What they want is (1) availability and (2) ROI. For (1), that is first and foremost subject to legal stipulations like EPA etc, then secondly subject to production availability. For (2), electronics are the name of the game if you are looking to turn a profit with farming because counting every seed, measuring every drop of chem, and tracking every inch of plotted ground leads to better ROI.

mcmcmc 20 hours ago||
Farming is a way of life for a lot of people, not just a business. That’s what is missing from your picture. And by population, small time farmers significantly outnumber industrial outfits, regardless of how much they spend. Sure you can make more money selling the most advanced tech to the biggest spenders. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a market for affordable, reliable equipment that gets the job done. Add on the risky nature of farming and its untenable to trap yourself in high 6 figures of debt and pray that you can optimize your way to enough profit to pay the interest.
azernik 3 hours ago||
"regardless of how much they spend" is not a statement that you can put in a business plan
bennettnate5 20 hours ago||
Fancy gains in ROI come from smart seeder/sprayer attachments and combine harvesters (a completely different piece of machinery), not from the tractor that's pulling those equipment. At best there's the ROI from less seed overlap, but plenty of GPS systems integrate well into any tractor and the gains are really marginal. I don't think tractor electronics are as important as they're hyped up to be.
Robdel12 21 hours ago||
This is the way if we can ensure manufacturing of the parts. It won’t catch on but it would be awesome to have “base” tractors that are mechanical and predictable. Then you slap on whatever software on top that helps (automation, etc). But they need to be decoupled imo.
rolph 21 hours ago||
i have a farmall hand cranked tractor, going on 90 years old, so far its been rubber parts, and clutch pads.

as far as auto mation goes, thats how implements used to work. it was a tracter/thresher/combine. then a bale counter is slapped on then maybe row sighting or guidance, etc.

if your really snazzy, the implement is actually mapping the soil for moisture, or rough composistion and holding data to use in reformulating or notating your current cultural plans, i.e. supplemental spot feeding and irrigation.

actual agricultural needs, not just fluff.

AngryData 21 hours ago|||
I still got a farmall 230, super easy to fix and maintain and works perfect for my small bit of land. An electric starter addon is really nice for winter starts though instead of killing your arm.
tonyarkles 20 hours ago||
While I’m not at all surprised that they’re still running, I am a little surprised at how many Farm-all owners are on HN. Farm-all H owner checking in :)
steveklabnik 19 hours ago|||
My father was a Farm-all partisan. Even though I never took up farming, it's one of the things I remember him for.
greedo 19 hours ago||||
Easy to maintain, great engine, just a bit rough to use on a larger field.
rolph 20 hours ago|||
the 5-speed is nice, good consistent pull, had it power plumeing in a seldge pull contest, its rare that i call on it to do that much work.
greedo 21 hours ago|||
And how many acres are you farming on it? Today's world of agriculture is much higher tech-based (for many good reasons, primarily yield) than back in the horse and buggy days of farming.
rolph 21 hours ago|||
5.75; 7.5; and 42.6.
cucumber3732842 19 hours ago|||
I know of a forklift that's pushing 80 and still used in a lumber yard (i.e. a material handling centric workplace)

Other than ~30min it takes to teach an employee to drive manual it doesn't do anything worse than the modern ones it works alongside and it does a handful of minor things much better by virtue of predating OSHA.

godzillabrennus 21 hours ago|||
This is what a "bobcat" has become for UGV startups. It's a low tech proven platform that you can basically modify with attachments to do a lot of UGV work.
idiotsecant 21 hours ago||
UGV?
barbazoo 21 hours ago|||
From AI

> A UGV (Unmanned Ground Vehicle) is a robotic vehicle that operates on the ground without a human driver onboard.

barbazoo 21 hours ago|||
I was assuming the same. This might be fine for a small setup but I'd imagine all the digitization shenanigans was done so efficiency could increase. I imagine for large scale operations this would be like replacing your steam engine with a horse.
dmbche 20 hours ago||
Could even nationalise the base tractor factory...
rootusrootus 15 hours ago|||
Whoops, I hope you are not a naturalized citizen of the US.
jagged-chisel 20 hours ago|||
Whoa there, M{r,s}. Socialist! Can’t have any of our democratic infrastructure near that crazy idea! (/s)
crazygringo 16 hours ago||
I'm not totally sure I understand. I expected these to be selling for twice the price, not half price.

I thought the whole idea of so much of the tech is to be able to lock you in and make profit that way, through servicing and features and subscriptions and whatever else.

If they're giving up that entire profit stream, they have to make money somewhere else. So how are they selling these for so much less and still making a profit? What am I missing?

GenerWork 15 hours ago||
They're using an absolutely ancient engine from Cummins that has probably paid off its r&d and assembly line costs at least 10x over. It has virtually no pollution controls on it like DEF or DPF. That alone is saving a fair amount of money.
erikerikson 2 hours ago||
/woosh

But I could be wrong. I can't know but I'm pretty sure the GP was writing tongue in cheek. As in mocking the business strategies that have been eroding the engines of our economy.

crazygringo 37 minutes ago||
Actually, no. I don't like the modern business strategies but they are what they are.

The only reason many consumer televisions are as cheap as they are is because they're being subsidized with advertisements.

It's the same thing with the razor and blades model, where the razor is sold at a loss and the profit comes from the replacement blades. Or the game console model, where the console is much cheaper than an equivalently powered PC because the profit is made on the games.

Low upfront purchase prices are subsidized by future income streams which can be enforced with technological locking. If you don't have that, the upfront purchase price generally has to be much higher.

dietr1ch 16 hours ago|||
You are seeing the price cuts of simplicity.
nemo44x 15 hours ago||
There’s very little R&D cost. Possibly little cap-ex as the infra to build exists.
pngwen 2 hours ago||
Wouldn’t a “no-tech tractor “ be a mule? They are selling tractors based on internal combustion technology.
gibspaulding 2 hours ago|
Mules are hybrids of donkey and horse. This was an important technological advancement some 3000 years ago, providing benefits of both breeds in one animal. The donkey and horse themselves of course are products of one of the most important technologies in human history - domestication!
ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago||
I think it may have been here, where there was a story about a Toyota factory that only makes one car: a barebones, white SUV.

It’s brought by all the NPOs in the world.

It’s simple, rugged, easy to repair, and cheap. You see them, all the time, on TV.

amelius 7 hours ago||
That's how you deal with vendor lock in.

These farmers have more balls than most Apple users.

Toutouxc 5 hours ago|
Huh? Aren't the tractors using a loophole to avoid emissions regulations?

You can do a lot of things if you don't care about the spirit of the law and your negative externalities.

jimnotgym 4 hours ago||
Which loophole? Using a remanufacture engine?
Toutouxc 4 hours ago||
Yes, they're engines that you wouldn't be allowed to build and put in a new tractor.

Like, the signals seem pretty clear to me. The spirit of the regulations is that these shouldn't be produced and put into operation anymore. The company is doing it anyway.

Tade0 20 hours ago||
> The 150-horsepower model starts at $129,900 CAD, about $95,000 USD. The range-topping 260-hp version runs $199,900 CAD, around $146,000.

Meanwhile, across the Atlantic, the MTZ Belarus 82.3 can be had for the equivalent of $50k.

It's a simple machine for a simpler time, so obviously doesn't meet any emissions regulations. But at least in my region farmers went to great lengths to acquire them - even illegally. By the time the tractors are confiscated, they'll more than pay for themselves.

devilbunny 17 hours ago|
It's also got half the power output.
hedora 13 hours ago||
I’m genuinely confused. Why not buy an entry level kubota?

I guess the startup is selling low tech stuff in the 100-200hp range, but you start getting computers and stuff at that point with the conventional manufacturers?

They certainly sell sub 100 hp / $100K tractors that are reliable and low tech, so I’m struggling to see any differentiator except the engine size.

Also, half price is an odd claim. The Kubota M6 looks comparable to the $130K option from the startup, but starts at $100K.

I can’t read the article because cloudflare is blocking iOS now, apparently.

Also, for the small-medium range, a BEV or plugin / serial hybrid powertrain would be a game changer. Lots of low end weight, infinite torque at low speeds, and no hearing protection required to operate it. Also, it wouldn’t get as wicked hot in the summer for the operator, nor would it dump diesel exhaust everywhere.

A low tech version of that would be compelling (similar to slate).

Edit: they could even use standard mounts electrical for the generator and common battery packs, so if either powerplant blew up, it’d be a bolt-in replacement. The actual electric motors probably would never blow out.

happyopossum 11 hours ago|
You’re rounding down the Kibota price (starts at 109k) and mixing in Canadian $.. You get a cummins 12v with more power than an m6 (and bigger more capable chassis) for ~10k less than the kubota.
fergie 4 hours ago||
I want a half-price no-tech electric car.
tiborsaas 3 hours ago|
You can buy a used car and get it converted to electric.
chung8123 18 hours ago|
I bought a chinese mini excavator. It is super simple and I am sure things will break on it (I already had a qc issue with the fuel gauge) but I don't fear things breaking. With the competitors the dealer had to service everything. With the chinese one I text someone on whatsapp, diagnose remotely, and they send me a part. Honestly I like this model more. If you have a lot of money the dealer is great.
SkyPuncher 15 hours ago|
Mine comes in tomorrow. When researching, I was amazed at the simplicity of these machines. The engine is essentially available at Harbor Freight, then it’s basically just a hydraulic pump and valves. When things break, I’m sure I can find a replacement part or hack something together.
hattmall 10 hours ago||
Which one did you buy?
SkyPuncher 9 hours ago||
AGT dm12x-plus.

I liked that it had the dual speed walk mode. Don't want to be creeping around the yard.

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