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Posted by scubakid 6 hours ago

Habitual coffee intake shapes the microbiome, modifies physiology and cognition(www.nature.com)
152 points | 86 comments
testemailfordg2 4 hours ago|
Funded by the Institute for Scientific Information on Coffee (ISIC) — an industry body — which is a notable conflict of interest the authors disclose but don't extensively discuss
rapidaneurism 3 hours ago||
It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:

Behaviourally, coffee drinkers exhibited greater impulsivity and emotional reactivity, whereas non-coffee drinkers demonstrated better memory performance.

selcuka 3 hours ago|||
> It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:

Who said anything about big coffee? These guys might be a secret, anti-coffee organisation. /s

fedeb95 2 hours ago||
it's the barley cartel.
iammjm 2 hours ago|||
Do they though? Any data on that? Also, the highly caffeinated people might also be sleep deprived, which impacts memory and emotional regulation
Antibabelic 2 hours ago|||
The data is in the linked paper. It's a direct quote from the abstract.
oharapj 1 hour ago||||
Please delete this comment. It’s embarrassing
baxtr 21 minutes ago||
Maybe he forgot?
carabiner 3 hours ago||
Every damn time, for chocolate, coffee, and red wine "studies."
TazeTSchnitzel 3 hours ago||
After habitually consuming caffeine (not in coffee form) daily, usually multiple times a day, for more than a decade, a horrible mental health incident happened to me that forced me to stop it for a while. Afterwards I didn't resume the habit, and so I no longer have a tolerance.

This has let me evaluate what caffeine does with fresh eyes, so to say, because I can now consume it occasionally while having many non-caffeinated days to compare to. It's a profoundly psychoactive substance and does a lot of things to cognition. I guess I have decided I don't enjoy how it feels, having previously been dependent on it.

BatteryMountain 2 hours ago||
I've had the same experience. Caffeine is super addicting, the ritual & habits surrounding it is a potent pull. For myself, it makes me erratic, impulsive, more reactive and agitated. One cup a day puts me on edge, makes me sweat more, makes me more intolerant, makes everything feel too slow. It such a sneaky drug and it can really get under your skin without you realizing how much it changes you.
orphea 16 minutes ago||
I don't have the same experience, and I drink one cup of coffee (270 ml) almost every day. No agitation, no impulsiveness. I can drink coffee in late evening (let's say 8 pm) and sleep well. I guess I'm trying to say that we should not project our own experience on others, everyone is different.
bayarearefugee 49 minutes ago|||
Quitting caffeine after decades of use was a bit of a mixed bag for me in the short term, but positive in the long term.

Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings for high carbs and sugar now, presumably this is related to the impulsivity impact talked about in the paper.

Going caffeine-free also made me very depressed for a while with severe anhedonia, this lasted way longer (like 3-4 months) than one would generally expect for caffeine withdrawal symptoms.

I had seemingly become so used to the increased dopamine signaling while buzzed on caffeine that my brain was a mess for a rather extended period of time as it got used to not having it.

Overall I view quitting as a positive for me, but I'd warn anyone thinking about doing it to do it carefully and closely monitor their mental health. AFAIK the impacts of quitting can be quite different for different people, so my experience may differ than that of others, but I had no idea how much of a (temporary) mental health crash quitting caffeine could cause until I experienced it.

gabriel-uribe 31 minutes ago||
I'm almost exactly 1 year coffee-free (not caffeine free, but significantly less because tea is much less addictive for me).

Also positive in the long-term for me. Fewer digestive issues, less spiky dopamine sensitive or impulsiveness and performance during the day, better memory. I wish it weren't so.

But damn was the 3-6 months of anhedonia awful. I still feel pangs of it.

apples_oranges 2 hours ago|||
Agree, I drink it a lot and then stop drinking it at least once a year for a few weeks, and for sure it's a different mode of mind, but can't really qualify it besides that I remember my thinking being softer, calmer and perhaps even "more correct" without coffee.

(But I never had any mental-health incidents, and I drink a lot of it, more than all people that I personally know.)

barrenko 2 hours ago|||
Coffee is a plant demon that created the western civilization as we know it today...
fermiNitambh 41 minutes ago||
I like this worldview. Prior to coffee, Europe was in the grip of the beer dwarves. Coffee demons took over and invented nationalism, capitalism and Keynesian economics.
readthenotes1 3 hours ago|||
Notably, the article is looking at coffee, both caffeinated and decaffeinated. There is a lot more to coffee than just caffeine...
mixedCase 2 hours ago||
The overwhelming majority of the enjoyable coffee experiences are caffeinated. While there is good decaf out there it's not the norm, specially in smaller markets.
tsimionescu 54 minutes ago||
I think they meant that coffee contains a lot of other compounds than just caffeine, which something like energy drinks or teas will not include. So you can't necessarily extend conclusions from a study on consumption of coffee to effects that other drinks that happen to include caffeine might have.

Edit: this is especially relevant here, as the study found similar effects in decaffeinated coffee drinkers. So the effects they observed, if real, are not related to caffeine.

kakacik 45 minutes ago|||
I do believe a lot of it boils down to tolerance. I for example feel basically 0 effects, and drink it just because I like the taste (of a good one with milk, or exceptionally some good espresso / ristretto after big dinner).

I recently traveled and didn't have coffee for more than a week. No change I could feel, no craving, nothing. But one of my ex-gf was quite sensitive on many things, had frequent headaches, low blood pressure and coffee was helping with those visibly. So YMMV.

rimliu 2 hours ago||
How do you know that caffeine was the cause?
ivan_gammel 2 hours ago||
This of course cannot be generalized, but withdrawal is quite noticeable for personal well-being in a positive way.
fedeb95 2 hours ago||
thirty-one participants were moderate coffee-drinkers (CD, i.e., people that usually consume between 3 to 5 cups of coffee per day).

3-5 is moderate? To me, 3 is already high.

Also, sample size is pretty low and they're all Irish.

p4bl0 1 hour ago||
I agree. I'm deep into specialty coffee and I love making and drinking coffee a lot, but three cups is already higher than what I drink on a normal day. Also, most of the time when I go above this threshold, I drink decaf.
kristofferR 5 minutes ago|||
This study is Irish, so I think they likely use 170ml cups? That means a normal mug of ~500ml is 3 cups.

Perhaps they even use US coffee cup size, which is 118ml?

Honestly, using an unit of measurement that varies from 118ml to 250ml in a scientific paper brings the whole paper into question.

midtake 48 minutes ago|||
Are the Irish unique when it comes to metabolizing coffee?
alexey-salmin 1 hour ago||
I do 6-10 espresso cups per day, so 3-5 does sound very moderate.
andor 41 minutes ago|||
It depends on how much caffeine is in your cup. Rather than measuring the size of a cup, I would go by the amount of coffee, as in the weight of the beans, used to brew it. The actual amount of caffeine is not as easy to measure, and even for the same kind of beans, there is natural variation.

For a traditional Italian espresso, about 7g of coffee beans are extracted. For a third-wave double espresso, it's usually 18g or more.

In my opinion, 10x7g is a lot. 2x12g is more than enough for me.

askvictor 9 minutes ago||
caffeine extraction is largely a function of time in contact with water. Espresso is quite quick brew, so has less caffeine than other brewing methods (yes, there are plenty of other factors)
MagicMoonlight 52 minutes ago|||
That’s not normal. It’s like saying “I drink 6-10 beers a day so 3-5 is very moderate”
pinkmuffinere 4 hours ago||
I’m super interested in this sort of study! However, it looks like n=62 here, which I think weakens the results —they’re probably just useful as suggestions of possible effects. Also, any food is expected to have similar effects on the microbiome. They didn’t test caffeine in isolation. In some ways that’s better (I don’t consume caffeine in isolation), but in some ways that’s less useful (it’s possible you get similar results from many random vegetables)
sixtyj 4 hours ago||
In 1995, NASA did spiders experiment. Caffeine is a siginificant impulsivity trigger. :)

https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/nasa-spiders-drugs-experime...

ivell 2 hours ago|||
LSD has unconnected strands in the air. I guess this is expected.
dotancohen 1 hour ago||
The LSD and sleeping pills were not in the original study I believe. That might be an artists representation of the image at the bottom of the original study, which I remember showed the results in a single row.
jayd16 3 hours ago|||
Nice web, Mr. Crack spider.
bhaney 4 hours ago||
> They didn’t test caffeine in isolation

But they did test both caffeinated and uncaffeinated coffee, and found the same effects in both, indicating that the effect is caused by something in coffee other than the caffeine

krige 4 hours ago|||
Doesn't decaf also contain caffeine, just a lot less of it?
anon84873628 3 hours ago|||
Typical extraction yield is 18-20%. For a 20g dose that's 4g of material consumed, or about 30 individual beans.

I wonder if you could find similar effects with 4g or broccoli sprouts, or garlic, or ginger, or cumin seed, shiitake mushroom, seaweed, soursop leaf, or...

satvikpendem 4 hours ago||
What's cool is this effect exists even in decaf coffee, as someone who primarily drinks decaf black, for flavor and for a good night's rest as I'm sensitive to caffeine.
Kelteseth 3 hours ago|
What kind of decaf coffee do you drink? There are differences between the cheap chemical Methylene way to create decaf coffee and the expensive co2 way to get rid of the caffeine.

https://cleanlabelproject.org/wp-content/uploads/CLP-Decaf-C...

Schlagbohrer 2 hours ago|||
Is that methylene way even legal? It basically uses petroleum fuel in the process right? I assume it was outlawed a long time ago but that might be extreme naievete for US regulatory capability...
eichin 2 hours ago||
https://www.thedecafproject.com/ (Dec 2024) let you order matching swiss water, CO₂, and Ethyl Acetate (sugar cane byproduct) decaffeinated coffee from the same batches of beans. The EPA banned methylene chloride earlier in that year, but because of toxicity to workers, not because of risk from the resulting coffee itself (and it looks like the FDA didn't ban it.) So I guess you couldn't make decaf with it in the US but you could probably still import and sell it?
satvikpendem 3 hours ago|||
I don't buy the methylene processed ones, generally it's Swiss water processed or like you said the CO2 processed ones.
ANarrativeApe 2 hours ago||
It would have been interesting to see if there was any difference relating to CYP1A2 (Cytochrome P450 1A2), the fast metabolizers and the slow metabolizers.
reedf1 5 hours ago||
At least subjectively, coffee seems to help my memory. But maybe that's why I started drinking coffee?

I would probably drop coffee it was proven to have negative effects on memory.

bboozzoo 4 hours ago|
> But maybe that's why I started drinking coffee?

you don't remember why, do you?

wjnc 5 hours ago||
I have not much followed the science of gut microbiome and psychology. Is this really going where this article is pointing? That we can tease out causation in foods and habits via gut microbiome towards behavior and psychology? Pretty rad.
chneu 4 hours ago||
There's a decent amount of research going into the hormones that our GI biome produce and how it affects us. Our body has a few different biomes and they all seem to play somewhat important roles.
colechristensen 4 hours ago||
Yeah there's nontrivial evidence that among other things, the complex community living inside you manipulates your brain.
ButlerianJihad 4 hours ago||
My psychiatrists agree that “hallucination” (in lay terms: “hearing voices” or “seeing things”) only refers to things that aren’t real.
shinryuu 1 hour ago||
Would be real interesting to see a similar study on tea.
getnormality 5 hours ago|
Coffee modifies physiology and cognition? You're telling me this for the first time.
alecco 4 hours ago||
The paper is about previously unknown ways coffee affects the body.
ButlerianJihad 4 hours ago|||
I was so surprised at this headline that I nearly leapt out of my chair!
jonplackett 3 hours ago||
But it says it’s the same for decaf. That is more interesting
aitchnyu 2 hours ago||
Been treating coffee as caffeine with aroma. Any important points about coffee itself?
triage8004 4 hours ago||
Humans known since 45 minutes after first drink
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