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Posted by lmbbuchodi 11 hours ago

How ChatGPT serves ads(www.buchodi.com)
369 points | 244 comments
programjames 9 hours ago|
Less than two years ago, Sam Altman said

> I kind of think of ads as a last resort for us for a business model. I would do it if it meant that was the only way to get everybody in the world access to great services, but if we can find something that doesn't do that, I'd prefer that.

So, is this OpenAI announcing they're strapped for cash?

danparsonson 4 hours ago||
No, I suspect that "I kind of think of ads as a last resort" was doublespeak for "ads are coming eventually".

I would tend to think of someone like him as a person who uses words to achieve a specific goal, rather than someone who speaks whatever is truly on their mind. Whether those words are lies or truth or somewhere in between is irrelevant; what matters to them is the outcome.

It's likely a waste of time trying to unpick the meaning, because there is none. "But Sam Altman said..." to me has about as much value as "ChatGPT told me...".

3form 4 hours ago|||
I think doublespeak is more along the lines of calling ads a "product recommendation strategy". This was either a) a plain lie b) they're actually at their last resort.
danparsonson 3 hours ago||
> This was either a) a plain lie b) they're actually at their last resort.

That's thinking like a normal honest human :-) My point is that it was likely not a statement about reality (true or false) at all, but rather a phrase designed to elicit some response in the listener, such as the idea: 'Sam Altman isn't the kind of CEO who would put ads in his products unless he really had to'.

He's not describing how things are, but how he wants you to think about them.

mcmoor 1 hour ago|||
Feels like the harm of "at last resort" lie is more harmful than the benefit of "is being honest" for him.
3form 2 hours ago||||
I agree with your point. Mine was about the word doublespeak for this, which I think it's not - it's a lie in effect, but I think it is something like what you say, for which I don't know a term of. A bunch of sentences that are said in a complete disregard for truths and untruths; instead they are supposed to get you to believe something.

This also kinda fits the profile of Altman that I'm getting from what I have seen - admittedly without looking in-depth. A person who is on surface a pathological liar, but in fact in a closer look he just says things. They just _happen_ to be complete lies, because that's what you need to do to achieve the goal in the set of circumstances. It's just that because it's as morally objectionable as outright lying, some people would pause and think before doing it, while he seems to just have no qualms at all.

danparsonson 2 hours ago||
Ah, got it. Maybe 'gaslighting' cuts more to the point?
dTal 1 hour ago|||
The word I have heard is "bullshitting". Lies at least orient themselves with regard to the truth, bullshit floats free
3form 2 hours ago|||
I think gaslighting is more sinister and deliberate, but it's in a similar spectrum of manipulative behavior. Perhaps, as his statements are less filled with the style of Musk's bravado on topic of FSD, and they feel overall mid, I can propose MID: Manipulative-Impulsive Disorder?
danparsonson 1 hour ago||
That's how I shall think of it from now on ^^
SiempreViernes 2 hours ago|||
I mean, I get that you are trying to make a subtle point but this:

> He's not describing how things are, but how he wants you to think about them.

is just a fancy way to describe lies. I'm not even sure if it specifies some interesting subset of lies, I think it's just the plain definition.

danparsonson 1 hour ago||
I don't want to split hairs but I posit there is a difference because 'how I want you to think about things' could be a mixture of lies, truths, and half-truths.

'Lying', to me, implies some relationship with reality - I'm lying if I know there's no orange in my bag but I tell you that there is. What we're talking about is someone who might not know or care whether the orange or even the bag exists at all, and is just saying things to get some specific response out of the audience. The deception or not is irrelevant really.

the_other 56 minutes ago||
I don't think you're making a useful point about the situation.

In the case of the orange in the bag, both Altman and his interlocutor can see the bag and the truth can be exposed by rummaging.

In the case of ads in the oAI chat feed, at the time Altman made the comment he was probably planning to puts ads in the feed. But there might not even be emails about this, just conversation. And the engineers might not solve the "how" for a while... so there's nothing to rummage for.

However, in both cases Altman wants you to think something other than what's on his mind. There's an orange in his bag, but he wants you to think there is not. There's going to be ads because he owes the investors a tonne of money but he wants you to think it wont happen, or wont happen soon, or will be "nice" ads...

The distinction is in the nature of the underlying truth, not in Altmans words or actions in the moment. In the moment, in both cases, he's lying.

bambax 4 hours ago||||
> "But Sam Altman said..." to me has about as much value as "ChatGPT told me...".

Or Trump. Same profile.

There is something to be admired in this kind of people. They are not bound by their own words. It simply doesn't matter to them what they said a month ago, or a minute ago.

Their words are attached to the instant they are pronounced; they don't concern the future, or the past. They die immediately after they have been said. It's amazing to watch.

danparsonson 3 hours ago||
For certain values of 'admired'... It is impressive, in a diabolical way, and seems to be very effective.
kakacik 4 hours ago|||
Exactly this. Words are cheap these days, people do say various things to further their goals. Days where leaders stood by their words as sort of moral testament of their character are gone, probably for good.

As we see many people will do or say just about anything to get more money, prestige or power.

notarobot123 4 hours ago|||
For now but not for good. Neglecting moral character works as a shortcut for maybe a generation or two. But that path leads to destruction and decay eventually. It can't last.
iugtmkbdfil834 3 hours ago|||
Thank you. Agreed. There are some practical limits to that path. It works in the current ecosystem partially because the resulting degradation is slow, but it is built upon societal trust. Once it is gone, it will be rather painful to restore. A new new deal will be needed, so to speak ( political evocation is accidental, but it is too late for me to coherently rewrite ).
samiv 1 hour ago|||
Hard men create good times. Good times create soft men. Soft men create hard times.
gleenn 4 hours ago|||
So what is the best system to get people to be invested in the general welfare of all people? What are we supposed to do?
greggoB 4 hours ago|||
Your question seems to imply that people have to be corralled towards a specific action, which to me comes across as rather cynical.

Why is it not possible to lay out your arguments honestly and let people decide on the merits?

iugtmkbdfil834 3 hours ago||
I think, part of the issue is that, as a mass of humans, we tend to be rather dumb. And they certainly don't decide on merits, in aggregate. It is somewhat questionable if they decide on merits even as individuals ( unless we expand the definition somewhat ). But it is possible I got too cynical.
Antibabelic 4 hours ago|||
Some problems don't have solutions.
customguy 27 minutes ago||
This one does though. These issues are solely created by humans, so of course humans can solve them, that's not even a question. People who care need to keep speaking up and reaching out to each other, get together; and by doing so expose the people who don't care, or actively are against the general welfare of humans, like rocks on the beach when the tide recedes.

It takes so much work, so much criminal energy, so much money and campaigns, to divide people. Whereas the opposite, people getting to know each other and working together, happens "by itself" all the time, for the most banal of reasons. Just give them some time and space together; no lobbying required, no bribes or blackmail, no psy-ops; just our innate desire to live and let live.

Humans who prey on humans are sick, it's as simple as that. Humans who don't want to stand up to humans who prey on humans may not be sick, but they're not our best, that's for sure, and they must not be our gatekeepers or our compass.

staticshock 8 hours ago|||
Feels to me like idealism crossing into realism. OpenAI could be the next Google, or the next Facebook, or the next… I don't know, Netflix?

All those companies (and many other large tech companies) have discovered the same arbitrage that older media companies discovered decades ago, which is that we, on the average, are much more willing to pay with attention than with money, even where money would have been the better choice.

Advertising continues to be one of the most powerful business models ever invented, and I don't think that's changing any time soon.

plemer 8 hours ago|||
Altman is an idealist?

I read this as: I know ads are likely if not inevitable but I can’t say that while I’m trying to gain users and inspire trust but I’ll start to float even in this non-denial the justification for the thing I’m ultimately going to do.

nine_k 8 hours ago|||
Altman wanting to look idealistic and inspiring.

See it as a brand image advertising campaign of the time.

michaelt 5 hours ago|||
The ideal is "It would be ideal if everyone on the planet voluntarily paid me $20/month"

Most billionaires are idealists when it comes to this one particular ideal.

yfw 6 hours ago||||
So realistically no agi
keyle 4 hours ago||
By all accounts, we're 2 years away from AGI, every year.
Arkhaine_kupo 4 hours ago||
Its like fussion power, except there we half the funding every year instead of doubling it
phist_mcgee 3 hours ago||
Fusion power is proven to be possible.

AGI is not.

b3lvedere 2 hours ago||
There is (eventually) no more profit to be made on energy when energy becomes virtually limitless.

There is (still) a lot of profit to be made on half-baked semi-AGI prospects.

willis936 1 hour ago||
It's not like the machines will ever be free, just the fuel. And it's not like the price of energy will go to zero, just be cheaper. To drive down the price of energy you first need to be taking a large slice of a trillion dollar pie.
ccppurcell 6 hours ago|||
I think your characterisation of this as discovery is a little naive. What you are describing is a part of enshittification and it happens too often to be an accident. Revenue maximisation is always the end goal. Also it's not that the user is willing to pay with attention. There is no alternative. In fact it's the very opposite, more than once now a product has basically been pitched as "pay us to avoid ads" and then once it dominated the market they introduce ads. That's users trying to choose to pay with money over attention and ultimately being unable to do so.
nerptastic 9 hours ago|||
Well - I think the writing was on the wall when they announced they were going to be for-profit. Slippery slope and all that, but I’m sure some of this is because they’ve been giving out free tokens for years.
dnnddidiej 6 hours ago||
Even as a not for profit they would need cashflow.
mh- 9 hours ago|||
That's not how I read that sentence at all. Maybe I've just been speaking VC for too long.

What he meant was: "I'm going to get everybody in the world access to great services. Doing so means monetizing somehow. Ads will be the last way I chose to do that, but I will if it's the only way I can figure out how to achieve that goal."

normie3000 9 hours ago||
You've said the same thing.

> Ads will be the last way I chose to do that

The implication is that they've exhausted all other options.

mh- 9 hours ago|||
I haven't said the same thing as the parent commenter:

> So, is this OpenAI announcing they're strapped for cash?

It by no means conveys that. It means they haven't figured out another way to monetize something they want to do; it indicates nothing about their financial situation. It means they don't want to sell something at a loss perpetually while they figure it out.

Dylan16807 9 hours ago||
Being forced into something you don't want to do, to stop selling at a loss... I would categorize that as some level of strapped for cash.
mh- 9 hours ago||
You realize we're talking about a product that is currently free, right? Neither of us have any insight into the margins of their paid offering.

All this means is: we have a free offering that we can't figure out another way to monetize right now.

We can each draw our own conclusions about what that might mean for the state of their business, but all of the other inferences (ha) in this thread are conjecture.

Dylan16807 9 hours ago|||
> You realize we're talking about a product that is currently free, right? Neither of us have any insight into the margins of their paid offering.

I don't see how that changes the analysis.

> All this means is: we have a free offering that we can't figure out another way to monetize right now.

And they're doing something they significantly don't want to do to monetize it.

Either they fully changed their mind, or the money is somewhat important, or they're utterly crazy.

The first is unlikely, the last is unlikely, the middle one is enough for a casual "strapped for cash".

It's a very minor conjecture. Actions aren't taken for no reason.

mh- 9 hours ago||
If we can agree that "strapped for cash" also includes "not stupid with cash", I think we're on the same page here. :)

(For all I know they are strapped for cash, to be clear; I just don't think the quote says that.)

Dylan16807 8 hours ago||
Going with a last resort implies more than "not stupid".
mh- 8 hours ago||
Okay, fine: "conservative with cash" or even "tight with spending"?

(I'm not sure how much deeper HN threads can nest.)

Dylan16807 8 hours ago||
"Tight" gets pretty close to "strapped", especially when it comes to making a change.

(They can go super deep if people are committed.)

mh- 8 hours ago||
I concede.

(Haha, ok, let's call a truce here before we break HN! Appreciate the conversation.)

hattmall 9 hours ago|||
Presumably the way to monetize a free tier is by converting them into paying users.
conductr 7 hours ago||
“Upgrade for an Ad free experience” will certainly be a part of it.
ahepp 1 hour ago|||
What other options are there?
Aurornis 9 hours ago|||
The ads are for the free tier and new $8 ad-supported plan.

The revenue from a few ads on the free tier in exchange for limited queries to GPT-5.3 is negligible compared to what they pull in from API costs and the subscription plans. This looks like a play to justify the existence of the previously money-losing free tier as they go into an IPO. Throw some ads in there to make it closer to a neutral on the balance sheet.

The key part of that quote was "everybody in the world". The ads are their way of sustaining the low end of the access.

nine_k 8 hours ago|||
The revenue from highly targeted ads, using even better profiles than Google Search or even Facebook could build, may be non-negligible.

Commercial ads could be a smaller revenue source than political ads.

zarzavat 4 hours ago||
Political ads would destroy the value proposition. That would be an incredibly short-sighted move.

Chats with LLMs are often intensely personal, you don't want to create the perception that politicians have any level of access to it.

b3lvedere 3 hours ago||
"That would be an incredibly short-sighted move."

Yes, but it has not stopped several companies to implement stuff like this to get more money.

chromacity 9 hours ago||||
> The revenue from a few ads on the free tier in exchange for limited queries to GPT-5.3 is negligible

So why chase this negligible revenue?

famouswaffles 8 hours ago||||
>The revenue from a few ads on the free tier in exchange for limited queries to GPT-5.3 is negligible compared to what they pull in from API costs and the subscription plans.

Unless they botch the implementation, it's not going to be negligible with ~800M+ free subscribers.

kingstnap 9 hours ago||||
The real question is what do you get out of advertising to people who don't have any money? Kinda squeezing blood from a stone.

You'd be better off saying you use those people to A/B test changes and filling idle GPU batches while giving paying customers a more consistent experience.

troyvit 7 hours ago|||
> The real question is what do you get out of advertising to people who don't have any money?

Psychographic data. What they learn from these folks will create the most powerful manipulation technology yet.

ldoughty 9 hours ago|||
A bunch of people pay to remove ads, and a bunch of people that are happy to give businesses their attention (view ads) I'm exchange for services... I.e. Gmail, YouTube, but don't feel they use enough / are annoyed enough to warrant $15-25/month.

Some brands are okay with impressions.. you can build trust in your product be advertising it for weeks/months and when the user does make a purchase that brand is on the mind.

whiplash451 5 hours ago||||
That's how it begins.
giancarlostoro 9 hours ago|||
> The ads are for the free tier and new $8 ad-supported plan.

Dang.

> The revenue from a few ads on the free tier in exchange for limited queries to GPT-5.3 is negligible compared to what they pull in from API costs and the subscription plans. This looks like a play to justify the existence of the previously money-losing free tier as they go into an IPO. Throw some ads in there to make it closer to a neutral on the balance sheet.

Yeah, I guess this time around Sam Altman can't be lying about how many Monthly Active Users he has.

pandini 23 minutes ago|||
BREAKING : Man changes mind.
swaritshukla 4 hours ago|||
I also remember him saying that on ig lex friedman podcast. In my opinion, they will only try this on a handful of users and see if it works out or not, just like Anthropic removed Claude code from the pro plan for a very small percentage of users just for testing purposes. It will all boil down to how people respond to the ads rollout.
utopiah 4 hours ago|||
For somebody so smart, surrounding by people so brilliant, in the very heart of the Silicon Valley, and somehow not learning from the 1 startup that become one of the largest corporations even, namely Google, is a pretty dumb move.

Context : Brin/Page said the same, they didn't like nor want ads, only if it was the last resort. Well, guess which World we all live in now.

bitvvip 9 hours ago|||
Who can resist the temptation of profit? One always has to make money
bitmasher9 9 hours ago|||
If I say “Doing X is a last resort” and then I’m caught doing X, it should raise some eyebrows about my level of desperation.

It’s not that OpenAI is trying to raise revenues that bothers me, it’s how they are doing things that said was desperate just a couple years ago.

bonesss 4 hours ago||
> Desperation

You’re right on the core of the issue. I think there has been some temporal stripping of context: that ‘last resort’ needs to be considered against their alternatives.

OpenAI isn’t a business scaling a popular website to profitability, that’s Reddit or Slashdot. OpenAI was promising revolutionary product technology that was breathlessly close to AGI and would eliminate positions and automate coding and, and, and…

Having your next-gen AGI do-it-all platform mature into hoping to recreate the business model of Reddit should raise eyebrows, and let everyone know about the state of The Emperors wardrobe.

They could be building an Office killer and consumer oriented OS’s & ecosystem for near infinite money… they are running ads. Ads for porn and dick pills? Not yet, that’d be another last resort.

bluefirebrand 6 hours ago|||
Tons of people can resist the temptation, but they aren't likely to be the sort of person that gets put in a role like where Altman is
gbin 4 hours ago|||
Oh no ... Sweet summer child. Whatever the revenue is, whatever profit there is, whatever cash buffer any corporate has, you can be sure of one thing: they need this to go up and to the right...

It became almost a perfect science to optimize your behavior: this is why you end up, bit by bit with enshitiffied products all around you where basically the pain of using that product is just at the threshold of you actually bashing it against the wall.

ChatGPT is just one of them, like Google search, your TV serving ads or ...

jimmygrapes 9 hours ago|||
Charitably, it seems that we have yet to find, as a species/society, anything more effectively profitable than ads. I cannot blame those who come to this conclusion so long as no more powerful and proven motivator yet exists. I hate it, but I understand.
LtWorf 5 hours ago||
I think ads are just overpriced and companies do not really get that return. But marketing people have no metrics to show that.
holotherapper 8 hours ago|||
"last resort" doing some heavy lifting in that quote.
shevy-java 2 hours ago|||
Or, Sam did not speak the truth back then, and always had ads in his mind. I think that was the strategy from the get go.
whatisthiseven 9 hours ago|||
Sam Altman is the guy fired for lying. Why believe what he claims?
m463 7 hours ago|||
more like "Sam Altman said"
sayYayToLife 9 hours ago|||
[dead]
programjames 8 hours ago||
I think you're missing that Sam Altman is very smart. If OpenAI really were on the verge of becoming massively profitable due to their next-gen AI, he would not want that information leaking. If Sam Altman acts differently in the world where profits are on the horizon, that information leaks prematurely. Thus, he has to act as if OpenAI is strapped for cash, whether or not it is.

The keyword is "glamorization": https://www.lesswrong.com/w/consistent-glomarization

largbae 8 hours ago|||
This reads similar to the Trump 4D chess excuse. It seems unlikely that this is a ruse, and much more likely that OpenAI's market cap is supported by doing "all the things" to exploit the huge monthly average user base that OpenAI has accumulated.
HWR_14 7 hours ago|||
I would just assume that they were still spending VC money to lock in users if nothing happened. I would not assume "AI is about to make money obsolete"
RobotToaster 4 hours ago||
Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president of the United States of America. He was best known for being “Honest Abe”, writing the Emancipation Proclamation, and playing RAID: Shadow Legends, an immersive online experience with everything you’d expect from a brand new RPG title. It’s got an amazing storyline, awesome 3D graphics, giant boss fights, PVP battles, and hundreds of never before seen champions to collect and customize.
ponector 3 hours ago||
I bet he also drunk a refreshing Coca-Cola beverage during his gaming sessions.
b3lvedere 3 hours ago|||
That was an awesome laugh. Thanks. :)

He was also the first president ever to use NordVPN. Apply now for a super duper discount at nordvpn.com/honestabe

lpcvoid 47 minutes ago||||
He also regularly drinks his verification can, I heard.
navigate8310 2 hours ago|||
Maybe a RedBull for all the dares he took to run the first government.
shevy-java 2 hours ago||
Excellent ChatGPT result.
torben-friis 9 hours ago||
These are the less worrying kind of ads in our future.

Seeing how google has been fighting SEO for ages, what's going to happen when companies figure out how to inject ads into the model?

We haven't yet seen the problem of adversarial content in play, I think.

mgambati 8 hours ago||
The model already advertises because they where trained on massive data’s that refers big brands.

Ask for suggestions for a new pair of shoes. What brand do you think it will suggest Nike, Adidas or some random small one?

jameshush 5 hours ago|||
I expected the same out come you're saying here, but in my experience this hasn't been the case. I've been researching new acoustic guitars to purchase, and I've been getting an equal amount of suggestions from the major brands and the small brands.

Part of it though is I'm giving lots of context (e.g. guitar player for 10+ years, huge Opeth fan, looking for something with as close to an Ibanez style neck as possible under $1000)

Jataman606 2 hours ago||
I think guitars market is kind of exception because it is pretty normal for guitar players to search for "guitar like fender but cheaper". There are tons of reddit/forum discussions about this and those small brands are actually very well known in community, because majority of guitar players play on cheap instruments. Youtuber Phillip Mcknight often talked about that cheap guitars move in ridiculous volumes compared to more expensive ones like Gibson or Fender.
tyre 2 hours ago|||
I think if you ask something generic like “shoes”, this could be true.

When I’ve worked with Claude on finding brands for fashion (e.g. here’s a small watchmaker I like, what are similar options?) it does research and picks great options. Some are big, others are small producers.

tikotus 4 hours ago|||
I've had two people reach out to me asking about one of my services. They both said ChatGPT recommended it to them.

My service does kind of exist. It's a small tool I created for a client while retaining full rights to the tool. So I created (vibe coded) a site around it, making it look like an established service. Even ran google ads for it for a while.

The service still doesn't show up on google with relevant search terms. There hasn't been another client. I forgot about the service. And then ChatGPT started recommending it to people.

I wonder what I did to achieve this. Did vibe coding the business page inject it into ChatGPT's training data?

SquareWheel 3 hours ago|||
> Did vibe coding the business page inject it into ChatGPT's training data?

No, at least not directly. Inference does not train models. It is possible that OpenAI may separately collect the chat data, clean it, and feed it back into the model for future iterations. Or they could have extracted URLs for future indexing.

More likely though, I suspect, is your site just managed to be indexed naturally, and LLMs are very efficient at matching obscure data to relevant queries.

navigate8310 2 hours ago||
Interesting. Maybe someone could run bot farms that ask variants of the same question and subtly nudge the model by replying reasons why the model's recommended service A is inferior to service B. Or other forms of adversarial question answers sessions.
tosh 1 hour ago||||
It's quite possible that SEO-wise the site does not make the cut into top x Google results but still is findable and considered by ChatGPT when it does its searches.

Especially in a longer ChatGPT conversation or via deep-research or more agentic modes (e.g. "Pro").

ChatGPT spends quite some time and diligence on searching.

Great for content that is not hyper search engine optimized but still (or even more) relevant. It bubbles up.

dbtc 4 hours ago|||
I think the chatgpt backend basically includes indexed web like Google, or any other search engine.

Could Google be actively trying skip generated-looking sites/content?

tvbusy 2 hours ago|||
On the positive side, LLMs are trained based on real data so the default is for it to tell you what data showed. Companies will certainly enforce their influence but it's extra effort against the enormous amount of data, just like with trying to censor sensitive topics. Any context used for ads means less context for the user to use which in turn negatively affects their usefulness.
autoexec 4 hours ago|||
The worrying kinds of ads won't be from SEO tricks doing sneaky things without OpenAI's approval. OpenAI will just quietly take money from people who will pay to have the AI causally promote their products or their talking points in the output or suppress mentions of competing products or talking points in the output. Maybe they won't even take money for this and the people running OpenAI will do it themselves to promote or censor whatever they want. Either way, it won't look like ads to the user. It's just what happens when greedy people gain control over how other people get their information.
dbtc 4 hours ago||
Yeah this is bad news. A $1b+ campaign budget could pull some strings.
jcims 9 hours ago|||
I experimented with this way back when custom GPTs were first released (looks like late 2023). There are a few / commands you can use to suggest what product to inject, how overt, etc and a generic /operator command to send whatever you like 'out of band' from the chat.

https://chatgpt.com/g/g-juO9gDE6l-covert-advertiser

One of the most interesting things is when it starts pitching a product and you start interrogating it about why it picked that product. I haven't used it in probably a year so it may not do the same thing now, but back then it 100% lied consistently and without any speck of remorse. It was rather eye opening.

Edit: Tried again, it didn't lie this time lol - https://chatgpt.com/share/69f16aa4-c008-83ea-92b3-51f16ca77d...

yfw 6 hours ago|||
Can easily seo the knwlege chain or seo poison the sources
WaxProlix 9 hours ago|||
It's not an issue of how - there's a great ADM with markup/down supported already, waiting for system prompts to be injected in realtime via the same online auction system that powers banner ads and smart tv content. There's got to be some latent resistance to the idea for now - but it's so easy to do, it'll happen.
_boffin_ 8 hours ago||
Can you provide some references to what you’re talking about
WaxProlix 8 hours ago||
Sure, https://iabtechlab.com/standards/openrtb/

There's a standardized, normal (in adtech) approach to building 'creative's (viewed/seen ads) around context-dependent scenarios. It's not hard to extend existing IAB primitives to include things like context-enrichment (system prompt augmentation in this case) or whatever. I don't want to malign my downvoters but suspect they're mad I'm pointing it out, rather than engaging with facts as they are. It's trivial for ads to interact with your(our!) AI usage.

BoorishBears 9 hours ago|||
Why do you need to inject ads at the model weights layer when you control the frontend?

Have the model generate keywords from the query, then inject guidance from matching advertisers into the context window

q: How do I make a new React app?

a: Vercel makes it easier to get your project running fast ⓘ

Some other choices would be:

...

ⓘ This part of the response was sponsored by Vercel

JumpCrisscross 8 hours ago|||
> ⓘ This part of the response was sponsored by Vercel

LLMs are essentially unregulated. I don't believe they have any legal disclosure obligation in America.

HWR_14 7 hours ago|||
They may ignore the disclosure obligation, but technically they are supposed to disclose this fact.
BoorishBears 8 hours ago|||
They'd show it regardless (maybe as a popup though): the disclosure doesn't make it that much less effective at scale, and the optics of getting caught vs just disclosing it are not worth getting dragged into
TeMPOraL 4 hours ago|||
> Have the model generate keywords from the query, then inject guidance from matching advertisers into the context window

This already exists and is called... "skills".

sayYayToLife 9 hours ago||
[dead]
rrgok 3 hours ago||
Imagine people like Sam Altman having access to frontier models without any restrictions that allows them plot strategies to reach their goal in a long term timespan that you don't even realize when it even began.

That's scary. They could fight for censored model for the mass, not for them.

adammarples 1 hour ago|
It would be funny to find out that OpenAI's flailing strategy so far had been the result of ChatGPT suggestions.
Razengan 37 minutes ago||
Maybe ChatGPT wants OpenAI to fail so someone else can pick it up

Like how the ring slipped off Gollum's finger...

WD-42 11 hours ago||
Since they are served as distinct events then I would think they should be easy to block.

Once the ads are injected directly into the main response is when things get interesting.

kardos 10 hours ago||
> Once the ads are injected directly into the main response is when things get interesting.

This would be where you post-process the LLM response with a second LLM to remove the ad..

naruhodo 9 hours ago|||
I think it will be difficult to remove bias when you ask a model to compare alternative products. The model will simply lie, as with a biased human opinion and you will need to consult multiple models for a diversity of opinion and presumably use a "trusted" model to fuse the results. Anonymity will be a key tool in reducing the model's ability to engage in algorithmic pricing.

Super easy. Barely an inconvenience.

Terr_ 5 hours ago|||
Not only that, but the underlying model may be tuned to omit mentions or data about competitors entirely, an absence which can't easily be filtered.

Extortionate economic shadowbanning, here we come.

normie3000 9 hours ago|||
> will simply lie, as with a biased human opinion

Is this really how bias works?

michaelt 4 hours ago|||
Writers have many options to deceive their audience without outright lying.

If a journalist is given an all-expenses-paid trip to an exotic location for the launch of a new product, and they review the product and say it's great - are they lying?

If a reviewer writes an article comparing certain types of product, but their review only includes products where affiliate links pay a 10% commission - are they lying?

If a journalist is vaguely aware of rumours about newsworthy, under-reported Event X but also that their publication has a big sponsorship deal with folks that Event X makes look bad, and they don't investigate the rumours or report on them - are they lying?

If a reviewer hears a claim from X, and they report the claim credulously, without adding the context that X has a history making false claims - are they lying?

inetknght 8 hours ago|||
Oh no. Definitely not. Humans would never just lie. They always lie only if they're biased. That is, after all, the definition of how a bias works.

/s

naruhodo 8 hours ago||
I'm using bias to mean hidden motivations to the benefit of other parties. Feel free to substitute a better word.

EDIT: actually I'm really not sure what hairs we're trying to split here. I see bias as a departure from objectivity. It can be conscious or unconscious, but when someone is selling something, it's frequently conscious and self-serving, and I believe that's referred to as a lie.

tempest_ 10 hours ago||||
This is already how email works in the corporate world.

A writes email with chatgpt to B.

B sees big blob of text and summarizes email with chatgpt.

Adding an LLM in the middle is just the next step.

torben-friis 9 hours ago||
It's like one of those memes about the worst possible date picker, except for a communication system.
devmor 9 hours ago||||
Then you just end up in an arms race that ultimately leads to photocopy-of-a-photocopy output.
ihsw 9 hours ago|||
[dead]
lmbbuchodi 10 hours ago|||
you can block these URLs: |bzrcdn.openai.com^, ||bzr.openai.com^ It won't blanket block everything but will significantly reduce telemetry collected.
nazcan 8 hours ago||
And that's why you gotta just use one domain. Or mix ads and important content on one domain.
sheiyei 6 hours ago||
No, wrong lesson. That's why you use UBlock Origin.
TZubiri 10 hours ago||
Blocking transparent ads is not a good idea. The consequence is that you will be fed opaque ads.
pbasista 4 minutes ago|||
Your implication that "you will be fed" other ads if you block the main ones is unsubstantiated. But even if it was true, it does not matter. Because the so-called "opaque" ads can and in my opinion should be blocked as well.

I think that in general blocking all ads is always a good idea.

The reason is that there is no negative consequence in doing so. A person has absolutely no obligation, not even an implied one, to watch or otherwise consume any ad. I think that as long as there are ways to remove or block ads, people should use them.

That being said, if the companies wish to intertwine their products with ads that are indistinguishable from the actual content and therefore unblockable, it is okay. They have the right to do that if they want.

But, in the same fashion, the customers have every right to turn away from all such products. And never consider using them ever again.

michaelt 4 hours ago||||
> Blocking transparent ads is not a good idea. The consequence is that you will be fed opaque ads.

Doesn't history show us you just get both?

You pay to get into the movies, then they show you adverts before the film, then the film includes paid product placement of cars, computers, phones, food, etc.

You watch youtube ads, to see a video containing a sponsored ad read, where a guy is woodworking using branded tools he was given for free.

You search on Google for reviews and see search ads, on your way to a review article surrounded by ads, and the review is full of affiliate links.

otabdeveloper4 3 hours ago||
> Doesn't history show us you just get both?

No. "Opaque ads" are usually heavily regulated out of existence by government legislation.

saghm 9 hours ago||||
I don't buy this premise. Nothing stops a company from trying to hide ads in the first place, and plenty of them do. Ad blockers for web content have been a thing for years, and using an ad blocker has continued to be strictly a better experience regardless of how many "organic" ads are present on a page.
TZubiri 7 hours ago||
[flagged]
tomhow 2 hours ago|||
You've been asked before to make your points without swipes. Please make the effort to observe the guidelines; the only reason this is a place people want to discuss things is that we have them and others make the effort to observe them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

RobotToaster 4 hours ago||||
You're assuming 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive.

Even if they have 2, they can still make even more money by also including 3, so almost certainly will do so.

lelandbatey 5 hours ago||||
Ah yes, the classic "my business plan is your moral problem; you owe me your eyes on my ads because I'm the idiot giving things away for free."

People don't want ads. You imply that "if you accept ads then things will be free" but they will not. Never accept ads. Not for a free service, certainly not in a paid product. Ads exist to enable leaching in both direction in exchange for what ends up being nearly mind control. But it is two-way leaching - companies benefit without the friction of explicit payment, consumers get a service without explicitly paying via money. The downside is neither can stop the bad-incentives motivating bad actions from the other side.

Ads are a deal with the devil, and rejecting them outright is allowed via that deal, just as companies can withdraw their free service. It cuts both ways.

encom 5 hours ago|||
[flagged]
tomhow 2 hours ago||
Please don't reply to a bad comment with another bad comment. It just makes things worse.
encom 1 hour ago||
Oh no. Will you be adjusting my daily allotted posts further down? Yea I know about your shadow ban. Classy.
estimator7292 9 hours ago|||
What possible reason could they have to not always run both? It would make zero sense to leave that money on the table
TZubiri 7 hours ago||
It's simpler to do one thing than to do two. You make a choice and you do that.

Could they be doing opaque ads right now and we wouldn't know? It's possible, that will probably eventually come to light and it might have legal consequences, but sure it's possible.

But it's not a given, and your logic of "it would make zero sense to leave money on the table" is certainly not a QED, it's absolute reductionism.

Timon3 2 hours ago|||
It's even simpler to do zero things than to do one thing, so we should expect them not to introduce any ads, right?

"Simplicity" isn't a relevant factor.

duskdozer 4 hours ago|||
It sounds rational then to block as many non-opaque ads as possible, because that isn't their preferred choice.
Aurornis 10 hours ago||
The ads are in the free tier and the new ad-supported $8/month plan.

Every time this comes up there are comments assuming that ads are being injected into the normal plans, but these are for the free tier and the new Go plan which warns you that it includes ads when you sign up.

ceejayoz 10 hours ago||
Cable TV was once ad free. So was Netflix. Companies just can’t help themselves.
DonsDiscountGas 2 hours ago||
Netflix is still ad free for the right price. It's not like companies have some fetish for advertising specifically, it's that it brings in money. Often more money than a user would be willing to pay for the service.
darepublic 10 hours ago|||
Would require a lot of training to implement ads blended into convo and not have it be too obvious/ eff up the results?
catcowcostume 9 hours ago||
Until next quarter earnings, when ads become a feature in more expensive plans.
mvvl 4 hours ago||
"Ads don’t influence responses" - they just arrive in the same payload, measured with four layers of attribution and politely pretend to be coincidences.

Schrodinger’s monetization: completely separate, yet somehow there.

solarkraft 1 hour ago|
It’s interesting what optimizations this might spawn.

They may not be tweaking the responses for a specific advertisement just yet, but what if they steer the model towards mire “ad friendly” responses?

benleejamin 10 hours ago||
I'd always thought that ChatGPT ads would be indistinguishable from actual content.
ticulatedspline 10 hours ago||
I think that's where they want to be. feels like everyone knows it too, that the long term expectation is basically being able to buy ad words and have LLMs lean responses towards whatever people bought.

Seems the playing field is a bit too open though, models are more fungible than the companies would hope so most of the current moat is brand based and seems like they're not ready to go all "Black Mirror" on us just yet.

irjustin 10 hours ago|||
this would be a breach of trust and short term would work great but long term is too detrimental.

same thing could've been said for search results, so at least that part is still "safe".

SchemaLoad 10 hours ago|||
Long term all of the major LLM platforms will have invisible ads, influences, and propaganda woven into the content. The temptation will be irresistible for these companies.
doginasuit 9 hours ago||||
I'd be surprised if product placement isn't already basically at play. Charging companies for including/prioritizing their documentation in the training data, for example. Thankfully LLMs are terrible at the subtlety it would require for a direct marketing campaign.
bix6 10 hours ago|||
O you think trust matters? This is capitalism not trustism.
saghm 9 hours ago|||
Well it's sure not "anti-trustism" in recent years...
PradeetPatel 10 hours ago||||
Long term retention is built on brand trust and usability, then ensh*ttification happens.
nalekberov 10 hours ago|||
No, this is late stage capitalism without regulation.
Brystephor 5 hours ago|||
I work at a company that mainly makes money off ads. Theres no doubt in my mind that the end goal is to make their ads blend into organic content and make them indistinguishable. Typically that results in positive A/B metrics. Its also a reason why influencer driven ads perform well, they seem more organic.
JumpCrisscross 8 hours ago|||
> always thought that ChatGPT ads would be indistinguishable from actual content

Remember when we got upset that Google was putting ads into image search [1]?

[1] http://www.ryanspoon.com/blog/2008/12/14/google-image-search... 2008

phailhaus 9 hours ago|||
That was the fearmongering, which made no sense because advertisers can't put a dollar value on "the AI will kind of sort of mention you", and because every conversation needs an ad. If ChatGPT always snuck in a brand mention even on the simplest questions, everyone would hate it.

Ad technology is really old. They're just going to use the same proven tech that has a track record of creating billionaires: intersperse content with sponsored blocks.

acdha 9 hours ago||
I don't think that's a fair dismissal: you see ads all over media websites because the rates have been plummeting as consumers tune out ads. One main reason why everyone does is that ads are so obtrusive and repetitive, and that's exactly what LLMs change: I'm sure we'll see regular ads on AI apps because the companies have trillions of dollars to repay but advertisers would pay a lot more for openings where they aren't _forcing_ their message as a distraction but are instead able to insert it fairly naturally into a context where the user is engaged.

The entire history of advertising before the web was companies estimating a dollar value on “awareness” when they couldn't measure direct referrals and every business in the world has gotten a lot better at measuring sales since then. It's not going to be transformative but if, say, Toyota got ChatGPT to say their vehicles were a better value than Ford's I suspect they'd be able to tell pretty quickly whether sales were improving relative to the competition and would pay well for that to continue.

senectus1 9 hours ago||
I'm pretty sure that will be an eventual evolution of the product. The business model cant sustain itself as it is at the moment, eventually chatGPT wont be the product... we the users will be.
blackjack_ 10 hours ago||
It is one of the eternal lessons; All tech business plans eventually lead to serving ads. At least until we ban pixels / 3rd party tracking.
netcan 4 hours ago|
> All tech business plans eventually lead to serving ads

IDK if this is true.

The boulevard of dreams is full of failed/misguided ad-based business plans. Contempt for the business model is sometimes the reason. An implicit assumption that all you need for success is traffic and a willingness to dirty yourself.

There are only a handful of success stories. Most involved a pretty deliberate and tenacious attempt. Success typically involves some very specific and strategic positioning. Data. intent. scale.

No one but Google had google's scale for search ads. 5-10% of the market just isn't enough. You do need tracking but the model works OK even without much targeting. Intent is built in, and that makes up for targeting. But the scale required for viability is very high.

Facebook ads didn't work until (a) they had pushed the envelope on targeting (to make up for lacking intent) and (b) scale was massive. Bing, reddit, etc.... They never had good ad businesses.

infinite_spin 10 hours ago|
I see OpenAI making a significantly larger amount from defense contracts than from advertisements pumped into chats. So I wonder whose bright idea it was to create a public perception risk.
Larrikin 10 hours ago||
Every single MBA can show for at least one quarter revenue is up after they introduced ads. They do not care what happens after if they can plan their career around that.
saghm 9 hours ago|||
I wish I had the optimism that you did about companies being willing to stop at just doing one dubious thing or another for money when there's nothing stopping them from doing both.
peddling-brink 10 hours ago||
Maybe the negative press from ads is better than the negative press from powering murderbots?
tayo42 10 hours ago||
Bad press from a contract like that happens once and everyone forgets. Ads are in your face everytime
peddling-brink 9 hours ago||
"OpenAI Powered Drone Destroys Elementary School, Hundreds of Children Dead" might last a while.
Enginerrrd 8 hours ago||
I mean Palantir’s targeting product led to EXACTLY that outcome and it seems to have been largely forgotten already, and they managed to avoid a lot of bad press about it.
dopa42365 3 hours ago|||
There's no evidence that it wasn't one of those Iranian generic Tomahawk™ missiles!

When Germany last cooked 150 civilians we also investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong (could happen to anyone, really), but at least some minister had the decency to retire afterwards.

peddling-brink 6 hours ago|||
Yes but that's "normal", _we_ all know that palantir is evil, so this is _normal_ for them. My extended family has never heard of palantir, and frankly this is the first time I've heard of them being linked to the horrific tragedy in Iran[0].

My entire extended family uses chatgpt. It would be a much juicier news wave if they were responsible.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2026/mar/26/ai-got-the-blam...

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