That was about seventeen years ago. I still have the save file. Today's announcement got me excited about the prospect of finally finishing my game, until I saw this:
> Existing saved games and bones files will not work with NetHack 5.0.0.
Drat.
Thankfully, NetHack is not one of those modern, commercial, online-only games that make it difficult to run old versions.
** SPOILER BELOW ** (in someone's reply to me)
NetHack 5.0 changes thousands and upon thousands of things from the previous release, 3.6.7, which was 3 years ago. 17 years ago is an eternity in this game’s history. The versions may not have gone up hardly at all in that time, but the fix logs are enormous.
Adding up the line counts of the fix logs for the 3.6.X releases with 5.0, I get a total of 6814 lines. That’s bug fixes only. There’s a similarly large number of gameplay changes!
All that is to say, migrating your old save file through all of those changes would’ve been a ton of extra work to support. I know Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup can migrate old save files but they have a very carefully designed system for sunsetting removed features in a way that old save files can still use them.
In 2014 the dev version was leaked to the community and in the following discussions with the DevTeam on how to handle this, the DevTeam got the first shoot of new devs in a while which lead to the release of 3.6.0 in 2015. This version was a polished version of the dev version, also incorporating some of the popular community patches at the time. The 3.6 branch received regular bugfix and security updates (3.6.7 was released in 2023).
Since 3.6.0 there's a mirror repository of NetHack on GitHub. So the development version that was internally numbered 3.7.0 which would become 5.0.0 was always accessible and, contrary to the 3.4.3 era, could be played anytime and was also installed on the public servers to play.
I'm aware I will probably lose it, but I'm also anxious to touch it. Maybe I should just get myself some good coffee tomorrow and get over with it. Biggest learning of that save is also how careful and defensive you have to play if you want to consistently get further.
Maybe an early example of "forever games" like Minecraft which just keep getting expanded forever and move ever further from the game you knew.
Would you please edit your comment, and preface it with a spoiler warning?
When I consider watching a movie, one of the first things I do is read a complete plot summary, including the ending. When I do this and no longer want to watch the movie, in my mind, that’s not a sign that any experience was spoiled, but rather that it just wasn’t very interesting to begin with.
Conversely, I have played Nethack on and off for decades, have read countless spoilers about it, yet still haven’t won and still find it interesting.
But there are movies that can be spoiled because of the big plot twist.
Eg. The Sixth Sense, Fight Club, to name a few (and [anime] Your Name, even the recently released Cosmic Princess Kaguya)
And then there are some movies where the plot is so obvious that you could have a LLM one-shot predict the whole thing.
That said if the movie/game/whatever is released for a couple years, I think the spoiler warnings should be optional regardless.
Many films are meant to be experienced, not just read or watched. Otherwise what's the point of a movie when you can just read a screen play? Or what's the point of a screen play when you can just read a synopsis?
2) If you want to avoid spoilers, you should probably avoid discussion threads about the subject, because people will often discuss their experiences in such threads
NetHack in many ways has common heritage with text-based adventure games of the 1970s and 80s, such as Zork. NetHack’s in-game currency is even a reference to Zork! Solving Zork without spoilers is also extremely difficult, despite lacking the tactical combat of NetHack. However, playing Zork with spoilers completely ruins the game, whereas NetHack is still a lot of fun even for highly spoiled players.
2. Fair point but with a game like nethack I'd say a majority of folks are interested in discussing the development of nethack without necessarily discussing the plot. HN has no concept of spoiler tags nor topiced threads so it's not really easy to contain the discussion per-thread.
Besides even if you don't care about spoilers, a lot of people do, regardless of your thoughts on how you personally like to experience media.
Like, it's fine to care about spoilers, you just can't expect a random community that doesn't even have the concept of spoiler tags to accommodate your desire. Doubly so since that desire is competing with the desire of others to discuss the topic.
I'm also not even sure where you'd draw the distinction with a game like NetHack - how do you discuss a change on how to acquire Excalibur without discussing how to acquire Excalibur, or spoiling that you can reliably acquire it?
That said, I haven't played enough nethack to even understand the spoilers so I'll probably forget about it. I'm primarily in this thread because because my dad introduced nethack to me when I was a kid, so seeing 5.0 is an incredible accomplishment and the meta discussion about it is fascinating.
I watched Million Dollar Baby for the first time a year or two ago. I thought it was just a boxing movie, something like rocky or something.
I don't think reading the synopsis would have affected me like that movie did. I thought about it for days afterwards.
This is very likely a good choice for multiple reasons, but it's truly the end of an era. (NetHack predates Lua, which has been around since 1993.) Lex and yacc are dead, long live lex and yacc!
By Amiga 68k platforms then. And maybe DOS.
Also, there no official Nethack i686 builds.
If I were them I'd try some micro-language from https://t3x.org as a pre-processor and bundle it. The T3X0 language itself can do wonders and even be ported to DOS with ease.
EDIT: ok, Lua can be portable and even they got DOS ports, this is great.
* Lua has a LUA_USE_C89 flag so it may be more portable than Nethack 5.0.0 at this point.
How much functionality/performance does one lose with this flag? Genuine question, I don't know.
If C89 and C99 were equally performant/functional, it would seem logical to just target C89 (since any C99 compiler should be able to compile C89 too). There must be some reason it's a flag.
luaconf.h:50-655
- windows builds always use C89 (quote: "broadly, Windows is C89")
- in C99 Lua uses 'strtod' and 'sprintf' for hex number conversions. Otherwise, Lua provides its own implementation.
- no math function variants with l_ and f_ prefixes in C89
- optional lua_KContext type is not available with C89
llimits.h:79
- type definition C99: uintptr.t vs C89: size_t
llimits.h:184
- in C99 or GCC Lua has a pragma for inlining functions, otherwise it's macro'ed to nothing
lmathlib.c:176
- math_log has an additional optimization in C99
if (base == l_mathop(2.0))
res = l_mathop(log2)(x);
else
- LUA_RAND32 define might fail to find 64-bit type (comment says it's for testing)
loslib.c:36
- `strftime()` only supports one-char options in C89
lprefix.h:14
- no _XOPEN_SOURCE with C89 (POSIX/XSI stuff) - no _LARGEFILE_SOURCE with C89 (manipulation of large files in gcc and other compilers)
both of these defines don't appear anywhere else in Lua source code
The Amiga port was resurrected just a few weeks ago.
https://mastodon.social/@ipaschke@cyberplace.social/11625728...
https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-amiga.html
> And maybe DOS.
Huh? Usually programs just embed a Lua interpreter, I think. Famously light.
Edit: but to be fair, I will try this 3d version.
OPTIONS=color
Giving me Ultima VII / VIII vibes.
AFAIK, the backend has moved a lot of map generation logic (and exposure of other data) to a Lua API, which is quite exciting as something for people to play with in tooling, forks, mods, etc.
Minor spoilers below:
I heard about some great balance adjustments that help to mitigate over-reliance on a single kit, such as making certain extrinsic resistances (e.g. wearing rings) stronger than their intrinsic counterparts, which adds to the decision-making in choosing what to equip. Another change I'm really excited for is the unicorn horn no longer being usable for "restore ability", so ability-draining effects (of which there are many) are a more significant threat (they were effectively zero threat until now).
Also very cool to hear the quest is now possible to do early (despite being a Bad Idea) as that has great implications for speedrunning or "fewest turns" runs.
Can't wait to dive in!
I do like the nerfs in this release. Making excalibur harder to get for Valkyries is a good one, as well as nerfing the unicorn horn. The run where I ascended felt a bit too easy at times. But of course valkyrie will still be by far the easiest role, I think. I bet I'll be stuck for quite a while trying to ascend anything else.
It comes with some movement quality of life (e.g. moving into a door opens it, moving into an obviously dangerous thing requires confirmation).
If you enable the option, there's color coding of health (green -> full), burden level, and states like poisoning, which I think is new too.
You can filter out messages like "you have displaced your pet".
I don't think I ever legitimately completed NetHack. I think the best I did was getting to the elemental planes. Later I read about some of the strats and kit you aim for, which I think was a mistake because it kinda ruined it for me.
I'm honestly surprised this is still going on. Kudos to anyone still keeping this going. I'd kinda assumed it was forever stuck in 3.7? I see there are 3100 bugfixes and changes. I really wish there was a summary of major changes. Maybe there are none and it's just a backend revamp plus bugfixes that they bumped the major version on.
If a bag of holding explodes (e.g. due to putting a wand of cancellation in it), most of its items are scattered rather than lost
Amnesia no longer causes you to forget maps
Unicorn horns no longer restore lost attributes
Valkyrie ascensions (considered the easiest) are harder: chance to receive Excalibur when dipping a longsword in a fountain is decreased if not a knight, valkyries no longer start with a longsword, valkyrie doesn't gain Stealth until level 3
You can't displace pets into polymorph traps easily to get a super pet
You can apply $ to flip a coin
At least there's still Samurai.
I'm 46 now, and if I continue that pace, I'll be dead before I even reach the bottom, let alone ascend.
Also check out DCSS, amazing game, been playing for soon 40 years.
Once you learn how to kill a fast enemy (like a soldier ant) without letting it fight you in melee, you become unstoppable for the first 1/3rd of the game or so. You discover that you don’t need the best armour in the game right away, you don’t even need more than a half-decent weapon, you just need to maintain your supplies of ranged weapons (and wands).
Stepping in traps can also be avoided with the knowledge that (with 2 special exceptions) traps only generate in rooms, not corridors. Traps can be safely searched for from adjacent spaces and once discovered remain visible permanently.
I should also point out that the two enemies you mentioned that killed you have one thing in common: poisonous sting attacks. Poison has been nerfed in the latest version (5.0) and poison resistance can be acquired in game. Furthermore, some characters actually start the game with poison resistance for free!
(extremely mild spoilers:)
- A core skill for Nethack is understanding how much danger you're in at any particular moment. Your comment about soldier ants below tells me you've made good progress here. But you need to recognize when you're in danger and how long you have to deal with that problem before you'll react appropriately.
- Nethack's dungeon isn't linear, it branches. (Think of the gnomish mines here, but there are other examples deeper.) When you're getting in over your head in one branch, go back up the stairs and switch to another one.
- When you're in immediate danger, Stop. Look through your inventory, consider your options. Think especially about wands, think about ways to write Elbereth, think about scrolls. Think about ways to use diagonal movement to your advantage to get to an escape, or a more defensible position. You have all the time in the world to think. There may not be a solution, but I've died more than a few times with more than one thing in my inventory that could have saved me.
- You need to be able to identify some things without waiting for a scroll of identify to fall into your lap. Price is the easiest way to identify the scroll of identify itself. It's also straightforward to learn to identify most useful wands: with spoilers or by experimenting. Engraving with the wand will often give you more information than zapping it. A lot of your early I'm In Danger toolkit will come from wands you've identified this way.
Good luck, have fun.
(Intermediate player, a few dozen ascensions 20 years ago.)
It's been nerfed since 3.6.X as well. Now it can no longer be used for fighting, only escape, and attempting to fight while standing on it will make you "feel like a hypocrite" and deduct 5 from your alignment score.
They added the ability to apply your money to flip a coin in this version! Why does that need to exist? Because they thought of it!
This being NetHack, an answer is often not as straight forward as it could be. Most of the time the level difficulty is proportional to how deep you are into the dungeon but there are levels where your experience level factors in as well.
#tech