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Posted by rustoo 2 days ago

Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school(www.theguardian.com)
218 points | 312 commentspage 3
itake 3 hours ago|
I (think) many bullies have bad home lives. I wish parents would be held accountable instead of taking it out on the kids that are struggling to process their emotions / hormones in a healthy manner.
mantas 3 hours ago||
And parents are acting out for myriad of reasons. There's a never-ending chain if you go that way. At the end of the day, bully victims end up holding the short end of the stick. And they frequently become bullies themselves. Maybe stopping bullying at the visible link is not the most right solution... But is there anything better that does not lead to eternal finger pointing?
Aromasin 3 hours ago||
[flagged]
zarzavat 8 hours ago||
This is naïve. This will just lead to the victims of bullying getting caned after the bullies set them up.

A bad person sees such a punishment as an opportunity to intimidate others.

Liftyee 8 hours ago||
I was only punished like this once as a child. I don't remember what it was for, but I only remember the punishment. So anecdotally, it doesn't seem to work.
stodor89 8 hours ago||
I was only punished like this once as a child. It was because I beat another kid and took his crayons. It worked like a charm. So YMMV.
bamboozled 5 hours ago||
I'm going through this now, we don't smack our child but I do remember getting smacked when I was especially naughty, and yeah, it set me straight. I don't hate my farther for it or anything, I just understand he had to do something.

My wife is getting basically beat up by one of our kids now, she doesn't believe in smacking so basically she just puts up with it and tries to talk to them about it and uses various strategies. Some work for a while, some don't. Sometimes she blows up anyway, which is completely normal human behavior.

I guess we're running a potentially very high consequence experiment with our children to see if talking through them and using other strategies turns them into better / equivalent humans to us without the smacking, let's see.

stodor89 2 hours ago||
> My wife is getting basically beat up by one of our kids now

You can't have this. Have a one-to-one conversation with your kid and tell them you can't have this. If they continue... well, I'm not saying "whoop their ass", but you can't have this.

t-3 7 hours ago|||
Anyone who was often caned/belted/hot-wheel-tracked knows they didn't stop causing trouble, they just weren't afraid of discipline or fighting anymore because it couldn't be much worse than that. Beating children has always been about desensitizing them, not making them behave! Rather than being "raised by women's hands" and becoming soft and submissive, beat them so they can fight and win/live.
noufalibrahim 7 hours ago||
Not wholly. If you have a strong positive relationship with your children, an unambiguous show of displeasure can be a very strong corrective force. A gentle slap on on wrist is a one to show this and it's not damaging especially if followed by something affirmative once he or she has corrected the mistake.

I've heard of people from previous generations who've tied their kids and belted them. I find it hard to think of a way that can have a positive effect.

dyauspitr 8 hours ago||
Who knows? Maybe it fixed the problem but you don’t remember and now it’s just a part of your ethical framework.

Only time I got corporal punishment was when I stole a small amount of money out of someone’s backpack in school when I was 8. I haven’t stolen a thing in my life since then, like not even candy or a towel from a hotel room.

lioeters 2 days ago||
Solution against bullies: a bigger bully.
rvnx 2 days ago||
Works really well, and doing nothing is exactly why western societies are fucked up.

New generations do whatever they want and do not face any consequences.

Have you seen how much of a shithole France became due to street criminality and teenagers attacking people ?

userbinator 8 hours ago|||
Many decades ago when I was still young, I was bullied and reported it to the authorities, but they didn't care beyond giving the usual empty "be nice and get along" verbiage. Ended up fighting the bully and gave him a few deep bleeding cuts with my nails. I got in trouble for it, but he never dared to touch me again.
eastbound 7 hours ago||
That’s generally the solution for bullies. I wonder whether that is also the solution for victims, making them strong enough.
2000UltraDeluxe 3 hours ago||
There's no denying a broken nose and some lost teeth will make many bullies twice about trying again.

Problem is it's often illegal or against the rules to do it since deliberately beating the crap out of a bully isn't self defence in the traditional sense. And in the cases where it doesn't work, the situation may escalate or the victim might end up being punished harder than the bully.

Arodex 1 day ago||||
>Have you seen how much of a shithole France became due to street criminality and teenagers attacking people ?

Are you a time traveller from 1900?

https://libreo.ch/revues/sjsca/20232/sjsca-29-2023/sans-foi-...

Note that it was a time of widespread caning and death penalty...

rvnx 1 day ago||
Not sure if I agree or disagree with you but that’s a really interesting article actually, so thanks for sharing!
hkpack 9 hours ago||||
> Have you seen how much of a shithole France became

No, how far away should I be to see that?

lava_pidgeon 1 day ago|||
Why are western countries fucked up?
reenorap 6 hours ago|||
The best way to handle a bully is to fight them tooth and nail even if you're going to get beaten up or you get suspended from school. If you keep fighting them the bullying will stop, and you will also gain some self-esteem.
CM30 1 day ago|||
I'm no fan of caning or physical punishment for crimes, but isn't that how a lot of bullying ends? The victim snaps, the bully gets beaten up or injured in some way and the latter finds an easier target to go after?

At the end of the day, a bully picks on those they perceive to not be a threat, whether that's a school bully using physical violence or a copyright/patent troll harassing individual creators and small companies. Being forced to go against someone with more resources or who can inflict serious damage against the aggressor is how a lot of bullies get shut down.

gramie 9 hours ago|||
I would suspect that the vast majority of bullying ends when the victim is able to escape from the bully -- by changing schools, etc.

We hear about victims snapping and beating up their bullies because that makes a good story. How about victims who snap but then are beaten up (because the bullies are often bigger and more used to violence) even more? Probably much more common.

ergocoder 10 hours ago|||
> The victim snaps, the bully gets beaten up

The unspoken rule is that the victim must only do hand-combat. They cannot use weapon in any way. If the victim uses weapon to defend themselves, they will be in the wrong.

Life is hard for victims. They are often bullied because they are weaker. And the only way out is to do hand-combat.

euroderf 2 days ago|||
So, a regulating force must necessarily be of the same nature ?
stubish 5 hours ago|||
This is the last resort punishment, so no, not necessarily. I'm surprised the last resort punishment isn't expulsion though, like it is in most places. I guess education is a right that can't be taken away?
yetihehe 2 days ago|||
I would like to know your opinions on a better one, if you have one that doesn't require several sessions with a school psychologist (I had a school psychologist at my school and she didn't do anything meaningful about bullying).
niemandhier 2 days ago||
In a friends school in Denmark the teacher could decide that your family had to host a party for all the kids at the family home, so they could get to know each other better, and that was repeated until all involved parties stoped misbehaving.
aeve890 2 days ago|||
>that was repeated until all involved parties stoped misbehaving.

The canning would vastly shorten the time span on which all parties stop misbehaving while the bullying continues. I was bullied as a kid and the school didn't do anything. When my father tried to reason with the bully's family he discovered they were just awful, violent people, bullies, all of them. When he came home, frustrated, he sat me and said something like "uhm, well, ok, listen, I went to talk to the boy's parents and... well... the next time he bothers you just beat the shit out of him. I'll deal with the school" and the quoted the motto of my country: "by reason or by force". Some things just works faster than diplomacy and all shit get sorted out without extending the suffering for most parties involved.

yetihehe 2 days ago|||
Good when all parents are able to host such party. I would say that in Poland, most of parents with a misbehaving kid are barely able to throw a party for their kid and several of his/her friends. Many times people complain about the cost of school supplies for their kids already.
niemandhier 1 day ago|||
I think the cost of doing this as well as the time you need to invest are what puts pressure on you.

I’ll have to ask what would happen if you do not comply.

The Danish are nice people, but they really do not like if you break the social rules, so I guess it would get intense verry fast.

yetihehe 1 day ago||
> The Danish are nice people

Just like I thought. I'm sure your solution would work when majority are nice people. That won't work on people who are from "lower social circles". We still have a lot of them in Poland and don't know how to make them behave better, because trying to make them behave better typically results in defensiveness about their way of life and a lot of excuses about their circumstances. They only dig their heels and start being more aggressive.

niemandhier 1 day ago||
My experience with humanity is:

Most humans are nice people. Many are also overwhelmed, self absorbed and make excuses.

That general observation, for me at least, describes the world from rural Pakistan to backwater Tschechia.

The only exception were groups that had a very strong in-group out-group separation. These people always treated me with too much suspicion to express passing kindness.

yetihehe 1 day ago||
> Most humans are nice people. Many are also overwhelmed, self absorbed and make excuses.

I agree, but bullies actually come mostly from that last group. Putting pressure on overwhelmed, self-absorbed or excuse-prone people in order to educate their children better won't work. I think bullying is because of lack of proper emotional education of children, it would be better to educate those parents and children in how to behave and why, but that requires resources most schools won't have and I've never seen anyone actually teaching this in schools.

1718627440 1 day ago|||
Then it is an even bigger deterrent. And maybe it forces people to ask their neighbors for help, which can also improve the social dynamic. People bond over helping each other.
NotGMan 9 hours ago|||
You can never fight against a bully with words.

The only real way for a kid in school to stop being bullied is for him to challange or beat up his bully.

Nothing else works.

jancsika 6 hours ago||
> The only real way for a kid in school to stop being bullied is for him to challange or beat up his bully.

Why is this always painted as one individual victim having to fight/challenge their particular bully?

I remember a bunch of us kids spontaneously self-organizing in the fifth grade. After an older kid bullied a few kids at recess, a group of ten of us-- most of whom hadn't been bullied, but who obviously could be bullied-- suddenly realized we could walk over to him as a group.

He did a double take as we meandered over mumbling to each other about what our intentions were. When we got close, he then looked down nervously at his shoes. We didn't do or say anything to him. After about five seconds, we all dispersed.

I don't remember him bullying anyone after that.

bitlax 2 days ago||
This but unironically.
christkv 6 hours ago||
I think it's important to understand why Singapore ended up where it ended after experiencing decades of multicultural violence. This guy gives a pretty good overview of why Singapore of today happened as a reaction to that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icxc_KDPrxM I think the modern equivalent case is probably El Salvador (can it become a new Singapore? Probably not).
decimalenough 6 hours ago|
Well, no, Singapore's rules on caning were inherited wholesale from its British colonial days.

"Decades of multicultural violence" is also absurd. There were indeed race riots in the 1960s, but these were closely tied to the ongoing saga of the formation of Malaysia and subsequent expulsion of Singapore, and as much political as racial (to the degree that these can be separated, since many key players like Malaysia's UMNO openly advocated for a given race).

ivanb 8 hours ago||
Regardless of what side you take, time is the judge. It does not care about what you consider right or wrong. It will show which societies will prosper and which will go extinct.
cineticdaffodil 8 hours ago||
Bullying is pack animal cohort behaviour. The selection of a "victim" by social means to be fed to the wulfes when they come, by biting said animsl. It reduces drastically when the environment provides the ilusion that there exists already someone who is "next" , be it a frail, because old teacher or a "known" underperformer. The dynamic cant be altered, but managed. From all the bugs in humanity, this one is one of the nicer ones. It can be percieved, it can be reasoned over, it can be handled by institutions (the individual in natural dynamics will not) and it is not societal loadbearing bug.
iammjm 6 hours ago|
No, it’s not a nice one and it can and in fact does ruin whole societies and generations of people. Here one case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina
cineticdaffodil 5 hours ago||
I never said its nice or justifyable. I wish there was a grown up to talk with here. I know the russian bully culture.

Stop talking down to evil people that only exist in your head.

thijson 2 days ago||
I understand that caning leaves lifetime scars, at least the type I heard about. It's not something you can put weight on for a while.
riffraff 8 hours ago||
This is not that kind of caning, it's basically a harder form of slapping kids, not the one they give criminals that breaks the skin.
ergocoder 10 hours ago|||
It depends. For some, yes. For most, no.

Not that I support caning by random teachers; this happens a lot of developing countries. A random teacher becomes the judge, the jury, and the executioner.

A caning punishment with proper investigation from proper authority seems like a good middle ground. Bullies should be punished. We cannot just brush it off as "they are just kids".

eastbound 6 hours ago|||
For minors, caning is with half-inch cane, which is the only one available in supermarkets. Only judicial caning is with the inch cane.
srean 1 day ago||
It's a matter of degree.

Life time physical or emotional scarring would, to pull out an example, be US slavery degree.

I grew up when corporeal punishment was a thing in schools. No physical or emotional scars.

Wish this is extended to white collar crimes.

lava_pidgeon 1 day ago||
Btw, besides using violence on school children is barbaric this action is also sexism. Young boys generally suffer more from violence. Now the teacher can add it.

Besides, why is the teacher right? They make mistakes , they can be racist etc.

Just stupd

gramie 9 hours ago|
When I was a volunteer in Africa, my school's English teacher was furious because none of the students in his class had done the homework. His solution: to bring them into the staff room one by one, have them hold their hands in a "chef's kiss", fingertips pointing up. He then whacked their fingertips ten times with a short wooden rod (laughing as he delivered the final blow, "and one for Caesar!).

These were tough, hardworking teenagers, but very few of them were not in tears when they stumbled out of the room.

The next day we found out that he had forgotten to assign the homework.

So why should corporal punishment ever be considered appropriate?

(I'm not arguing with you, but agreeing with you.)

markdown 9 hours ago||
lol, standard practice in schools where I grew up, though not with a wooden rod but the wooden back of the blackboard duster.
rmwaite 8 hours ago||
I don't think this is something to laugh at. Whether or not you think it's necessary or a proper method of punishment, it isn't funny.
DonHopkins 4 hours ago|
Cane the parents first.
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