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Posted by wslh 18 hours ago

Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard(www.elciudadano.com)
219 points | 187 commentspage 2
pimeys 16 hours ago|
In EU we have multiple national systems, but now they are trying to unify them to the IBAN system, so you can pay in the same way by opening your bank app and scanning a QR code:

https://wero-wallet.eu/

My bank (N26) should support this later this year. I hope it becomes as big and successful as Pix.

laurencerowe 15 hours ago||
Wero sounds similar to the US Zelle system but the big reason for that to exist in the first place is that bank account numbers are not safe to share in the US since they can be used to pull payments so there was never an option for easily transferring money to friends and family other than writing a cheque.

In the UK and Europe I could just share my bank account number or IBAN and make payments through online banking since the late 1990s (though in the UK they only became instant in 2008.) So Wero sounds like a nice convenience but much less of a game changer.

It will be interesting to see if it manages to expand to goods and services since the EU strictly regulates the fees Visa and Mastercard can charge there so there is less incentive to switch than in some other countries.

Nathanba 9 hours ago|||
Sharing banking information is not safe in Europe, decades ago a phone scammer convinced me to give them my information and they were able to pull money from my account without any permission from me whatsoever, they just acted like I already signed up to their scam service when I never did. That was a completely foreign and insane idea to me (and it is still insane and should not be allowed) that someone can simply withdraw money from my account. They sent me some contract in the mail that I had to apparently reject and otherwise it was automatically approved. Which itself is surely also not legal but the point is that they were able to take money from my account just with my information.
kjetijor 5 hours ago|||
"decades ago"

Granted, I'm mostly familiar with the Scandinavian bit of Europe, but you can't do jack shit with banking without 2FA which is tied into the national population register.

They decided in the 80ies or 90ies that "relying on knowing secret fixed magic numbers" was not ideal for authenticating people, and sat down and worked out solutions to that problem.

pimeys 5 minutes ago||
There's still the SEPA direct debit payments in Germany, so you basically give your bank details and the company takes the money out of your account once a month. These don't exist in Scandinavia, but are very much still the norm in Germany.
laurencerowe 4 hours ago||||
In the UK direct debits don't require 2FA (but do require approved forms either online or on paper) but you can also very easily get a refund for any direct debit taken from your account so I assume it's simply not worth the scammers' time.
imtringued 2 hours ago|||
The way SEPA direct debit mandates work is absolutely mind boggling.

You'd expect it to work like Paypal, where you have to sign in to your account to authorize the direct debit mandate and also have the option to revoke it there.

No, the way it works is that you have to print out a form, fill it out and send it to the payee who you are granting the direct debit mandate, e.g. your landlord. Your landlord then sends a copy of the direct debit mandate to your bank and the bank authorizes direct debit payments immediately without asking you.

If you want to revoke the direct debit mandate, you have to send a form to your landlord that you want to revoke the direct debit mandate.

This is mindbogglingly stupid, since the payee has no obligation to process your revocation immediately and can take their sweet time.

Canceling a direct debit mandate has no impact on your obligation to pay rent. It makes no sense that you have to inform the payee and let them gatekeep the revocation. It also makes it possible for unscrupulous people to request a direct debit mandate without your knowledge.

pimeys 13 hours ago|||
I think the biggest reason is sovereignty: we cannot risk US cutting our payment system if they for example don't give Greenland for them.

I think this is the biggest reason to ensure you can pay with a local system in shops and restaurants.

laurencerowe 9 hours ago||
That's a very reasonable concern, though given how central Visa and Mastercard are I suspect it is probably necessary to regulate their structures within the EU so that intra-EU payments are not reliant on non-sovereign infrastructure.
markvdb 1 hour ago||
Regulating US companies operating in the EU still leaves a kill switch in untrusted hands. It doesn't solve issues like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Guillou problem.
tardedmeme 14 hours ago|||
To be pedantic, IBAN isn't a payment system, but only an identifier. It's like an IP address - you still need to enlist the services of an ISP to reach it, and that ISP has to find an actual route and send packets over actual cables.
raron 7 hours ago||
Wero is just another private company trying get their cut of payment fees. You can do the same thing with SEPA Instant Payment (or some member states outside of the Eurozone have their own similar thing).

I don't see why Wero should exists, their business model seems like "trying to get money for the same service you can get for free".

jeroenhd 3 hours ago|||
Wero does several things. You can already send instant payments if you fill out IBAN and such, but entering order numbers, account references, and other such cruft for purchasing products is a pain. Companies receiving such payments also need to connect payment to a user and update their digital processes somehow. Wero offers such a solution so you don't have to find a PSD2 processor (which will probably cost just as much).

For interpersonal transactions I don't really see the advantage here, but for commercial use cases it's got a solid product and purpose.

Wero doesn't stand to benefit much from payment fees as European payment fees are already rather slim compared to, for instance, American ones (crazy things like percentages of purchase price with a minimum amount!).

rkachowski 6 hours ago||||
wero is a european initiative set up by a consortium of banks that is built layered upon instant payments. it's not a private company like paypal or visa, its an attempt at making European payment infrastructure
throwaway473825 5 hours ago||
Sweden has a similar "initiative" set up by a consortium of banks (Swish), as do many other European countries.

Usually these systems raise their fees after being established, sometimes even higher than Visa/Mastercard.

Brazil's Pix is something else. It wasn't created by private entities to make money.

jeroenhd 3 hours ago||
Wero's Dutch predecessor, iDEAL, has been an established part of online payments for 20 years now.

As barely anyone has a credit card and very people want to deal with the faff of manually entering billing codes or account numbers, iDEAL usage is near universal for online payments. I don't recall fees ever going up as an end customer.

throwaway473825 3 hours ago||
Card fees aren't paid by end customers either. The Swedish iDEAL equivalent, Swish, is more expensive than cards for smaller transactions (below 15 euros). Wero will be like Swish, not Pix.
jeroenhd 2 hours ago||
Wero is not something that "will be", Wero already is. It used to be called something else for decades, but that doesn't change much.
Pooge 6 hours ago|||
I couldn't have said it better. I don't understand what they solve.

We need instant, free SEPA transfers around the clock. Switzerland is not part of SEPA but IBAN is used so it is trivial to send payments to foreign accounts that have an IBAN.

I always say that the day Trump decides to block Visa/MasterCard outside the US is the day we get instant payments and finally get rid of cards.

ptman 2 hours ago||
SEPA instant already exists. I think it guarantees sub-10s transactions. Unfortunately it is not the default.
Pooge 16 minutes ago||
SEPA is only for Euros but there are countries that don't use Euros that still use IBAN (e.g. Switzerland and UK).
scheme271 13 hours ago||
Seems fairly logical for any large country to create something like this. Visa/MC is nice but allows the US to apply undue pressure to individuals. E.g. the US applied financial sanctions on ICC officials in the EU resulting in them losing access to Visa/MC credit cards and banks even those are that are purely EU based.
acarmoi 6 hours ago|
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ares623 1 hour ago||
If there is a company in New Zealand working on a similar system, I'd love to hear about it because I would like to work for you.
ksec 5 hours ago||
There is also UPI in India, and I assume something coming soon from China.

I sometimes do wonder if these Goverment can work together on a single payment system, federally operated but connected.

m101 4 hours ago||
The main issue in this market is that the consumer doesn’t pay the cost of the transaction, therefore there is no pressure to reduce costs, and hence no innovation. All of this could be solved if a government regulated that consumers must pay the fee. Here, in the UK, we have obviously regulated the exact opposite of a sensible regulation and were “shocked” when total fees paid on transactions exploded.
burnJS 9 hours ago||
Brazil can do this. Why can't we?
throwaway473825 5 hours ago||
Most likely because your country's banks are heavily lobbying against such initiatives.

It's easy to blame Visa and Mastercard, but the reason why the EU doesn't have this is that the EPP (the largest political group in the European Parliament) answers to European banks, which don't want it.

jeroenhd 3 hours ago||
The EU is literally working on an alternative as we speak: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...

I think the cryptocurrency-based implementation is stupid and a product of its time, but the EU is investing a lot of money into a system to push Visa and Mastercard out.

Many countries have their own payment systems already, often widely successful. Integration between these systems has been annoying but things have started to centralize on two or three systems across Europe now.

throwaway473825 3 hours ago||
The EU would obviously benefit from a digital euro, but the banks won't give up without a fight:

https://euperspectives.eu/2026/02/digital-euro-timeline-at-r...

>Private banks are resistant to a digital euro both as a payment method and a store of value. The digital euro is designed to be a free, public payment method, directly challenging fee-based systems operated by banks. This is its key usefulness in terms of sovereignty. But it could also be used as a digital wallet and users may move their money out of private bank accounts to central bank-backed digital euro wallets meaning banks lose out.

So far they have successfully delayed any implementation.

jeroenhd 2 hours ago||
The original release was a proof of concept. That proof of concept is currently being developed into a fully-fledged proposal. Once that proposal is accepted, and legislation is ready, the first actual implementations can begin.

I don't think you can call it a "delay", the project just moves at a glacial pace.

The entire project was never going to finish before 2030. Some banks are upset about it, for sure, but others are in favour.

esperent 6 hours ago|||
Vietnam has a system like this too, QR based and free. India has UPI.
martheen 4 hours ago||
QR payments are ubiquitous in South East Asia. The eventual goal is ASEAN-wide interoperability, and some are even already interoperable with South Korean, Japanese and Chinese counterparts. And as expected, the US is also complaining about those, merely because Americans can't grasp the concept, like how they lag on pin adoption.
pelasaco 4 hours ago||
who are we?
madhacker 17 hours ago||
Hey Visa/Mastercard — try that move in China and see how well it turns out.
yorwba 17 hours ago|
Happens all the time: https://ustr.gov/search?q=initiates+section+301+investigatio...
bpavuk 5 hours ago||
a question for Ukrainians who maybe rode to Brazil and got to try Pix: is it this fast? is monobank faster or slower than Pix?
znnajdla 4 hours ago|
They're not really comparable because Pix is interbank while monobank in Ukraine is a single bank.
pelasaco 4 hours ago||
The only problem I actually face with Pix in Brazil is:

Some stores only accept Pix and don’t want Visa or cash. As a tourist, you end up unable to access a lot of things because, well, we don’t have Pix.

While I was in Brazil, some thugs with pistols came into a bar where I was. They forced people to send a Pix payment to a specific account, and their money was gone. In the credit card era, I guess the companies, insurance providers, and banks could reverse the transaction and cover the losses. With Pix, as I understand it, nobody feels responsible for it and the money is gone.

eb0la 4 hours ago|
Reminder: always travel with a spare phone with a broken screen just in case.
airstrike 9 hours ago|
I've been living abroad for over a decade now, so I never got to experience Pix.

I went back to Brazil a few years ago for a couple of weeks, and a kid on the streets asked me if I could buy some chewing gum and help him out. I wanted to, but I had no cash, so I told him I had no cash at all.

He said "It's fine, just send me some with Pix".

I still remember the incredulous look on his face when I told him I also didn't have Pix. He was certain I was lying. "_Everyone_ has it. How come you don't?"

pelasaco 4 hours ago|
had the same experience.. "how come you dont have Pix?"
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