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Posted by cdrnsf 2 hours ago

Google Declaring War on the Web(tante.cc)
218 points | 122 comments
analogpixel 1 hour ago|
I feel like AI has gotten to the point where the message is: If you want to make something (art/code/music/writing) you can do it for your own enjoyment, but you aren't allowed to make money from it anymore; only the large corporations can make money from content. If you do release something creative, it'll just be fed back into the machine to be copied over and over.
soundworlds 15 minutes ago||
As someone who simultaneously makes music professionally, and works in IT professionally, it has been really interesting watching GenAI unfold, and the diverging cultures around it. It is almost like the world is splitting into two "societies":

1. One that loves AI + Big Business + very fast Innovation and disruption

2. One that loves Artisanal work + Small Business + slower but more sustainable innovation

I personally prefer living in #2, but I can totally see both "societies" continuing to exist and develop in their own ways.

Of course there is always the reality that different societies always end up interacting and affecting eachother.

jasondigitized 3 minutes ago|||
I predict mixtapes, with the operative word being tapes, make a big comeback.
archagon 13 minutes ago||||
I am waiting for the online reification of this split with bated breath so that I can fuck off to society #2 and never have to interact with society #1 again.
jongjong 4 minutes ago|||
I'm not too worried about it because the first segment of society is doomed to be 'good but never great.'

AI lacks the ability to identify greatness because it's trained on the output of the average person who also lacks this ability.

It's going to create a new elite class of people who have good taste and the masses who have bad taste. Many current elites will end up with the masses. They may retain their wealth on paper, but it will be a cheap, low-quality existence but they will be convinced it's luxury.

Everyone will get what they want, but not everyone will get what they need.

barnabee 48 minutes ago|||
Needs to be inverted.

Tax excess tech profits that derive from the efforts of others and use the proceeds to fund living artists.

Vaguely analogous to levies on blank cassettes that went to offset piracy. Give the money directly to actual artists, not labels/publishers, though.

wahnfrieden 39 minutes ago||
You’re describing a social revolution. Otherwise there is no way that leaders whose power over us corrupts them would want to put that into law.

The cassette reference was a tax on consumers to send money upward. What you’re describing is the complete inverse.

lkrubner 13 minutes ago||
No, it is exactly the same thing. The tax on cassettes raised money that was given to artists.
jpkw 33 minutes ago|||
At least for art - I don't think you'll find anyone who actually enjoys art hanging up anything produced by AI on their walls. For these kinds of "customers", they could equally easily frame & hang up a poster of the Mona Lisa. Artists are not at threat, if anything, AI makes original artworks more precious & enjoyable.
smoe 8 minutes ago|||
My worry is that, at least among the artists I know, many kept themselves afloat early career by doing commercial freelance jobs like illustrations for local events or companies. Those kinds of jobs might largely vanish.

On the other hand, with the internet inevitably becoming swamped by AI generated content, I can definitely see a de-digitalization of art moving into offline spaces. At least for independent work, you don’t necessarily need mass appeal or exposure, but rather access to individuals and small groups with an actual willingness to pay for art.

yakattak 30 minutes ago|||
That's assuming that the only market is stuff people are hanging up. The games industry, one that already takes advantage of its workers, is going to love this to the detriment of really passionate artists who love their craft and industry.
paulhebert 1 minute ago|||
Lots of illustrator jobs for businesses too
HDThoreaun 9 minutes ago|||
genAI is going to be great for indie games. Solo productions are much easier to produce and will only get easier as tooling improves. I sort of see this as a spotify moment I guess. A democratizing force that will allow many more people to get paid for their art but with much less job security and often as a second job. Whether that's a good thing is certainly up for debate but I think as a consumer it's probably good for me.
overgard 40 minutes ago|||
I imagine it'll take a functional legal body to do this IE maybe europe, but I think there should be a legally binding set of metadata you can attach to images to specify that they must not be used for training (with real penalties if companies are caught)
nicbou 25 minutes ago|||
No money and no audience.

Recognition and gratitude keeps me going. Money pays the bills, but if that was the only concern, I'd still be a software developer.

Anonymously feeding the slop machine is nothing like it.

archagon 16 minutes ago|||
I’m itching for some sort of no-training license:

This content must not be used for training or refining LLMs. If it is, rest assured that if and when the regulatory environment around training data shifts in any country in which we have legal standing, we reserve the right to sue.

Maybe even with a class action element: any lawsuit stemming from a violation of this license shall cover all other violations at the same time.

Forgeties79 48 minutes ago||
A big corporation using LLM’s to pump out lazy “art” gets the exact same scrutiny from me.
DeusExMachina 1 hour ago||
I don't understand the endgame here. Websites let Google crawl their content in exchange of traffic. If Google cuts that out completely, what incentive do websites have to not block the Google crawlers?

I understand that Google is feeling an existential threat from other AI products that provide answers directly. But they must also understand their symbiotic relationship with the web.

AndroTux 59 minutes ago||
The end game is the consumer no longer leaving Google and the web becoming synonymous to Google for them. Why shop on some random website when you can have Gemini buy it for you? Why look for information on Wikipedia when… you get the idea.

I think the coming years will be pivotal for the web. Facebook attempted a similar strategy back when their apps got traction, but they ultimately failed. Let’s hope Google fails too.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 52 minutes ago||
We're going back to the CompuServe/AOL/Prodigy model
WD-42 29 minutes ago|||
What I really don't understand is where the next generation of training material will come from. If websites stop being published and/or crawled, how will the machine continue to be fed.
azlev 19 minutes ago|||
Current executives think it's a problem for the future executives.
bediger4000 25 minutes ago|||
Either Google is ignoring that, or crossing their fingers and hoping that one LLM can produce data to train another one.
jjulius 1 hour ago|||
The long-run doesn't matter as much as the short-term gains for those in power.
hotstickyballs 1 hour ago|||
The web is going to become China, which is a collection of walled gardens
winterbourne 47 minutes ago|||
> If Google cuts that out completely, what incentive do websites have to not block the Google crawlers?

Completely, yes, that destroys the incentive. But they can reduce it 80% or 90% or so, to the point that it's just barely worthwhile to allow their crawlers.

archagon 11 minutes ago|||
Google ignores robots.txt and botnets residential addresses to crawl anyway? (LLM startups already do this.)
hsuduebc2 15 minutes ago|||
You will be kept inside the Google ecosystem the same way people are kept inside Facebook.

I’m curious how they plan to generate new content in the future, because it seems obvious that simple web pages will become obsolete and eventually stop being filled with fresh data.

It will probably end with a warning every time you click a link, something like: “You are leaving to an external unsafe site.”

AlienRobot 27 minutes ago||
The impression I get from Google's own marketing material is that Google doesn't believe in "the web". And it hasn't believed in the web for years.

Think about it. Pretty much every time they show a search box with someone asking for directions to reach a physical place, what hours is it open, etc.

The greatest thing about the internet is that it has removed distances around the whole world, but Google's major value proposition seems to be that... it can accurately index and query information about local businesses?

LinuxAmbulance 1 hour ago||
We abrogated getting traffic to our websites to Google long ago. Mostly because Google was so good at it that the alternatives became significantly less useful.

Now that Google is focusing on becoming 'self contained', so to speak, we should find a better way to drive traffic to websites. Ideally one that's not under the control of a single corporation.

Anyone miss StumbleUpon?

RiverCrochet 2 minutes ago||
An open way to trade, store, and export lists of websites in a way that works seamlessly on desktop and mobile browsers would be pretty neat.
teamonkey 1 hour ago|||
It feels strange there’s no decentralised search.

I know this is likely to do with the nature of the problem, but that hasn’t stopped us from getting some wildly-unsuitable decentralised nonsense in the past.

iamnothere 22 minutes ago|||
There is, YaCy, it just isn’t very good as it suffers from lack of attention/interest.
Bolwin 1 hour ago|||
I don't see how being decentralized helps search. Makes it quite harder if the fediverse is any indication
hightrix 1 hour ago|||
Does a move like this give more power / value to websites like reddit? A link aggregator that is organized is much more useful for finding new websites.
AlienRobot 25 minutes ago||
But Reddit also doesn't want you visiting new websites.
j2kun 1 hour ago|||
There is also old-fashioned marketing. Go find your audience to be heard.
somewhereoutth 1 hour ago||
(sorry, nit pick, but I don't your usage of 'abrogate' is quite correct here, you can't abrogate to something)
margalabargala 1 hour ago|||
> but I don't your usage

If we're nitpicking, you don't what their usage?

firecall 1 hour ago||
> If we're nitpicking, you don't what their usage?

Abrogate their usage.

magpi3 53 minutes ago|||
He may have meant abdicated
jollymonATX 1 hour ago||
As a website owner I have seen major upticks in viewership myself but really it hits hard when you see an Ai summary that is wrong and your sites there. The whole Ai for everything push unfortunatly will downskill the world I fear and nothing can be done about it.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 55 minutes ago|
> downskill the world

I feel this. I asked a developer today a question about how our product is programmed to handle something, and he just sent me a summary from the internal AI assistant they've started using.

He used to provide really good, thoughtful answers, but now it's just copy/paste from the AI.

ratio53 43 minutes ago|||
> He used to provide really good, thoughtful answers

This hits hard. There’s a senior engineer at my job who is known for well written proposals. Today he shared a doc that had the typical AI formatting, was hard to read, and clearly not his style.

On the other hand, if others use AI to summerize stuff, does it matter anymore?

gatlin 42 minutes ago|||
I have a co-worker who does this now. He's very smart, very capable, very experienced and it's clear that he's just a frontend for Claude now. It's tragic.
wahnfrieden 34 minutes ago||
Maybe organize to give these workers more equity or rev share instead of just a wage so they care more for quality results instead of the behaviors they’re evaluated on and you’ll find them more pleasant to work with.
bigfishrunning 28 minutes ago|||
That will only encourage this behavior
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 22 minutes ago|||
I'm not his boss; I'm on a different team. But we're a very small company with very good compensation and revenue share in the company.

That ain't it.

fantasizr 4 minutes ago||
Nearly every iteration of google's innovation has made the web worse. Websites chasing SEO with low quality garbage sites, to sites plagued with adsense digital ads & popovers, to now stealing from websites and selling that data. The web was more readable as a link ring on geocities
arjie 58 minutes ago||
These kinds of declarations rarely make sense to me because they don't seem to model the issues in the way that I see them. I have dual roles: one as a person who writes a blog (a "content producer" in our present parlance) and as a user. As a user, I want my browser user agent to act on my behalf to display web pages, and I want my search agent to extract information from numerous sources and synthesize them with appropriate sourcing.

One could argue that my content production being a hobby lets me be pretty blasé about being intermediated by a platform. That is somewhat true. If I relied upon this as a living, I would probably also conclude that actions that harm my way of living are a war on "the web", though realistically any neutral party observing must conclude that if it is a war, it's one on my kind of participation in the web - content creation for the purpose of revenue / notoriety / some other reward.

As a user, I don't actually care very much for each website and its creator. The information contained therein is useful to me, but the heterogeneity of these sites is mostly an obstacle to the information. I am much happier when my search and summarization agents are able to accurately synthesize what these websites say, in so much as such a synthesis allows me to model reality more accurately.

So I could be convinced that this change from Google makes it less likely for accurate content to be created and that I'll be misled more often. But this is a tool, and my world-model will frequently be tested by reality. If the search-and-synthesis machine fails to produce useful outcomes, I will know. And I'll have to adjust the way I treat knowledge I obtain through it so that I don't get catastrophic outcomes. But that's the same already. I don't really know that Google's search results are not planted ones calibrated to change my opinion. And I don't know that they don't collude with the Internet Archive (with whom they have a pre-existing relationship) to make it look like their constructed consensus is real.

As a user, I have to make a lot of decisions already, and having to painstakingly read search results to synthesize them myself is far less useful than using an agent. So if there is a war on the web, then I am glad to join it, on the side against the web.

alluro2 29 minutes ago|
I...have to agree about siding against the web...An optimistic part of me sees this as a move that pushes in the same direction that the "web" has already been going in for a long time - preventing users from getting the right information in an honest and efficient manner, preserving their attention budget, and choice. Until now, it was through increasing the noise to push monetary incentives, and now it's by cutting the noise to push monetary incentives. Why optimistic: up till now, there was no single enemy, and it was hard to fight a (somewhat) disjointed system; now, Google is positioning itself to push things further to the worse, with them (and small number of other companies) being the clear target.

My hope is that this will help overflow the proverbial glass for an increasing amount of people and we'll start pushing back towards the "old" web before Google and ad networks have transformed it, or find new modalities of interacting more freely with each other, and the content.

It's not going to be a small or easy fight, though...to a large extent, it's a fight against the current state of capitalism itself, and winning back our attention, critical thinking and choice.

newAccount2025 1 hour ago||
I would feel more sad about this if the web wasn’t so rotten to begin with. On average, any random site is just trying to throw ads at you and harass you to subscribe and such.
BuyMyBitcoins 35 minutes ago||
I have a particular disdain for “subscribe to our newsletter” modals. Especially when I’ve spent a sum total of less than 3 seconds looking at the webpage.

How such modals aren’t considered pop-ups is beyond me.

AlienRobot 22 minutes ago||
So you want websites to rely on traffic from Google instead of building their own newsletter? Interesting.
nicbou 22 minutes ago|||
Do you trust Google to do a better job?
adiabatichottub 1 hour ago||
That rot was the direct result of the ad economy that made Google all of its money. Now maybe if they hadn't done it then somebody else would have, but they did do it, and poisoned the well we all drink from.
hartator 1 hour ago||
While they seem against being scraped themselves: https://serpapi.com/blog/google-v-serpapi-motion-to-dismiss-...
LocalH 1 hour ago||
Good thing they took "Do no evil" out of their manifesto years ago
theendisney 37 minutes ago|
Out of my countless www experiments the website made for myself turned out most enjoyable. Technically it is a blog with links, quotes, categories, tags and search. Sometimes i download all pages it links to. (tens of thousands)

Google dropped it from the index long ago. I had a fun discussion with some google folk where they kept arguing my website was designed wrong and that some pages had tomany links.

Basically, if you write an article about the largest banana companies you have to chose which to link to!

The 10 best movies article is better than the best 100. If you make a list of all the movies you've seen your page gradually turns into something really bad. Others will be punished for linking to it but only if you add the nth entry.

As the website is just for me it is clearly their loss not mine. No way im ging to consider linking a sub set of patents or research papers.

StilesCrisis 29 minutes ago|
At one point the web was drowned in "listicles," low-effort sites made to match queries like "best movies from the 90s" or "new music in 2023". Google attempted to downrank these sorts of sites because they were in general very very low quality and were just designed to catch a lot of traffic and display ads alongside low-effort content. (Think one page per list entry, each page transition is a whole new set of ads.) Users disliked these. It sounds like your site was misclassified as a low-effort listicle site.
theendisney 17 minutes ago||
Im sure it is really hard to run a search engine that size. I have ideas how they could improve but it isnt my job. They chose to populate results with big websites which probably is good enough for most users. The problem is that there is now no point creating websites which is terrible for google. If it picks up the domain and (against all ods) deems it worthy of traffic it can be blacklisted at any time.
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