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Posted by bifftastic 5 hours ago

How to convert between wealth and income tax(paulgraham.com)
109 points | 364 commentspage 3
triceratops 41 minutes ago|
There's a way to levy a wealth tax that requires no asset liquidation whatsoever. Allow paying taxes with assets. The assets go into a sovereign wealth fund. At scale the fund effectively holds a percentage of the entire economy. Its returns should only be used to reduce income tax.
PokedBear 5 hours ago||
The bigger difference between an income tax and a wealth tax isn't the numbers. A wealth tax, for better or worse requires some realization of paper gains that very wealthy folks normally go to great lengths to avoid because their wealth is largely based on a broadly shared polite fiction. So imposing some realization of that wealth requires accountability that doesn't always pan out.
whatshisface 5 hours ago||
A much more interesting formula would be how to convert between income and income tax - you'd think it worked according to the superficial bracket system, but in fact, it works along the lines of going to 0 at the top.

P.S. a wealth tax is a property tax. They have existed in the US since before the income tax (which was originally considered unconstitutional by its opponents).

jeffreyrogers 4 hours ago|
I think the limit it can reach without carried forward losses is 20% because that's the top long-term capital gains tax rate. The other thing I can think of is if you sell a QSBS business, then your capital gains are taxed at 0, and you wouldn't pay income tax at all on that money either. So it's in theory possible that someone could make millions tax free from selling a business, but that's a rare case and one the tax code explicitly allows for.
koliber 2 hours ago||
You don’t need to teach anyone about this. The wealth tax should apply to extremely wealthy people, not everyone.

If you accumulated a fortune, there was some skill at play. There was also considerable luck and some exploitation. The wealth tax is a way of paying back for the luck and exploitation.

You will still be extremely wealthy.

Paul wants to play the fairness card. Life is not fair and those who accumulated massive fortunes won the lottery. Don’t let the massively rich conflate issues. Don’t get fooled.

mayneack 2 hours ago||
> It's clear that politicians don't get this from the way they talk about a "mere 1%" wealth tax. None of them would speak of adding a "mere 20%" to the income tax rate, even though that's mathematically the same thing. [2]

This is the wrong way of thinking about it. It's not adding 20% to an already taxed entity, it's adding taxes where there weren't before. Adding 20% on top of the income tax would indeed be controversial. In his framing the rate of return is effectively untaxed income, so it would be more accurate to say that this is like adding income tax to a currently untaxed income stream.

loteck 5 hours ago||
Isn't PG's conflation of Denmark's high income tax with a proposed wealth tax a clear flaw in his math and argument re: "the highest taxes in the world"? Why wouldn't you instead compare to other countries that also have both income and wealth taxes?
newsoftheday 4 hours ago|
As a layman, bringing up a purely income based argument with Denmark, seemed to be an odd juxtaposition.
mlsu 2 hours ago||
I would love, LOVE to pay 20% in taxes! Goes without saying, I work for a living and have far less wealth and power compared to PG.

I think there is kind of a breakdown in social order here. If society allows you to become the chief, it ought to also impose upon you a burden, an obligation, to wield your power over the tribe fairly, generously. To care for the weak, to make sure that everyone benefits, to ensure that things stay stable and safe under your leadership... The standard is higher, not lower. The sacrifice is greater, not lesser.

It is absolutely bizarre and you can see exactly thew way PG, and other like him, are thinking. They all want to have this immense power (and it truly is immense, more immense than ever in modern history!) but they want none of the obligation, none of the responsibility.

Even asking for 20 percent is too much, apparently.

It's really sick.

grassfedgeek 5 hours ago||
I think 1% wealth tax should be a replacement for income tax. That way only the wealthy will pay taxes.
niwtsol 4 hours ago||
I think that is the glaring hole here - via an insane number of instruments from the various investments, they can reduce their tax liability (fed and state) to be very close to 0%. I believe a main idea of the wealth tax is to get around the insanely complicated tax code w/ all its loopholes.
tastyfreeze 1 hour ago||
A national sales tax also gets around the insanely complicated tax code without government confiscation of wealth. Regardless of how it is earned money eventually gets spent. Rich people spend far more than lower incomes so they pay more taxes. If they pass their wealth on it will still eventually get spent by somebody. That fixes the stepped basis problem of inheritance. If they use equity to get loans they are still spending money so it fixes that problem too. It is also easier and less costly to collect and enforce. No special forms for specific types of income to make sure you are getting taxed enough and no army of IRS agents to check that everybody is following the tax code.

The most common opposition to replacing income tax with a sales tax is saying it is regressive because "poor" people will need to spend a larger portion of their income on taxes than a wealthy person. Ok, so don't food or primary residence. A poor person isn't buying a $300,000 car or a second home. The best part is that if somebody is having a hard time getting by, every dollar they earn can be saved instead of giving Uncle Sam a short term loan until tax day.

grassfedgeek 1 hour ago||
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k2enemy 5 hours ago|||
How do you propose we measure a person's wealth, when wealth is easily hidden? When it needs to be done now, it is usually a years long audit.
Matheus28 5 hours ago|||
A lot of countries require you to declare your total wealth on your tax forms. Then once someone gets audited, that gets checked. Obviously it’s possible to hide it, but that in itself is a crime, and not everyone is willing to risk going to jail over paying taxes.
throw0101c 4 hours ago||
> A lot of countries require you to declare your total wealth on your tax forms.

If you own shares of $MCD, you can get wealth taking share prices and shares owned.

But if own a McDonald's franchise, how do you measure the 'wealth' of it? Annual profit? Last x years profit, averaged?

triceratops 38 minutes ago||
Comparable sales. Discounted cash flow model. There are many ways.
Salgat 5 hours ago|||
The first step we need to take is to invest in the IRS. Every dollar invested in the IRS returns between $5-9. Couple that with fines that offset the cost of auditing, and "hidden wealth" becomes a liability too expensive for people to bother with.
clear-octopus 5 hours ago||
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blmarket 2 hours ago|
So, if we go with 2% wealth tax(instead of 1%) we can cut income tax offset -20%? Go do it right now.
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