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Posted by bifftastic 6 hours ago

How to convert between wealth and income tax(paulgraham.com)
109 points | 364 commentspage 4
sokoloff 2 hours ago|
> You can tell from the way they talk about the subject that they don't understand the momentousness of what they're proposing.

I think that what you can tell is that they think the voting public won't understand the momentousness of what they're proposing. Whether they themselves do or don't is much harder to guess.

blitzar 6 hours ago||
It's clear from the way paulgraham talks about the subject that they not only don't know the answer, but don't even realize there's such a question.

You can tell from the way they talk about the subject that they don't understand what they're talking about.

Supermancho 6 hours ago||
The post goes out of it's way to mischaracterize the strategy (and purpose) of wealth taxes being proposed.

> Each 1% of wealth tax is equivalent to 20% of income tax.

Mathematically sound.

> Politicians understand that an additional 20% income tax would be a lot. And indeed a US state that added 20% to its top income tax rate would have extraordinarily high taxes.

That's the point.

> In the median case, US state politicians talking about adding a "mere 1%" wealth tax are talking about causing the residents of their state to have the highest taxes in the world. That's not the sort of decision you make lightly.

Not "all of the residents". Specifically the ultra wealthy that have a billion dollars. 20% at that point, is 20% of lots. You still have lots left over.

Mathematical fairness isn't the point, which is one reason there isn't a flat tax rate.

superfrank 4 hours ago|||
> > Each 1% of wealth tax is equivalent to 20% of income tax.

> Mathematically sound.

Don't most wealth taxes that have been proposed have a certain level of wealth that you pay no taxes on? If so, doesn't that make this at least partially incorrect?

Maybe I'm missing something, but if I have $100 and have to pay a 1% wealth tax on it then sure that's roughly 20%. If I have $100, but I only have to pay a 1% wealth tax on everything over $90 that's more like a 2% income tax.

arh5451 5 hours ago|||
I live in Switzerland. All residents are assessed a wealth tax. It would not be just the top x%. Wealth taxes are a bad idea tried in Europe and then later repealed.
haizhung 4 hours ago||
Famously, Switzerland is a socialist failed state where no one wants to live, of course.
vessenes 6 hours ago||
Please make higher quality posts -- what in specific do you think pg has missed or does not understand?
blitzar 5 hours ago||
If he can phone it in why cant I? His entire framing.

Income (or revenue), what is left over freom the paycheque (profits) and net worth (market cap) - applying a simple ratio to companies of revenue to market cap doesnt work, why would applying a simple ratio of income to net worth for people who live hand to mouth and billionaires work any better.

vessenes 5 hours ago||
I think you may have missed the background: US tax rhetoric -- he's doing what I think is pretty fair math with a fair take -- the math is supposed to break down what percent income tax you need to get the same dollars in tax revenue as a 1% wealth tax (on the wealthy). I think you could quibble with his risk free rate of return number, but most conservative planners would recommend a 4 - 5 % budget for risk free rate of return.

It's not about companies - it's about showing an equivalency between a Piketty-style tax of wealth setup and what we're used to thinking about in the US, an income-style tax setup on individuals.

w10-1 5 hours ago||
True enough, but it doesn't address the motivation or the issues presented by California's proposed wealth tax.

It's a big democracy red flag when a majority wants to take a lot from a tiny minority; the moral hazard of the unfairness is that it's unclear where this ends. (Saying "one-time" and "1%" are trying to limit that risk)

It's a democracy red flag when an unpopular minority is vilified as the cause of society's problems. It short-circuits real policy making and distracts from real issues.

The bargain of private wealth is that it's better at innovation that should spread widely -- if it's subject to competition and does not export costs.

One problem is that one of the best investments is to change the law to reduce competition, increase market power, and export costs -- i.e., to weaken politics.

Another is that wealth used to mostly invest locally (information and transaction costs), so locals would see some benefit. No longer.

Finally, as an accelerant, enterprises are made of legions of managers and experts, who now compete more than ever; they would lose that competition by supporting less extractive policies or gentler politics.

Net result is that wealth seems not productive but extractive, and there is no negative feedback to reduce that.

Once the grand gambit of goodwill is lost, it cannot be recovered for at least a generation, but there's no real feedback to prevent that. The political viability of something like a wealth tax is just an early indicator.

mbgerring 3 hours ago||
Wealthy people are taking food out of my mouth by driving up asset prices, and deploying capital in ways that will never benefit me, either in employment or in quality of life. The premise of reducing taxes on wealthy people was that everyone would broadly benefit. This has not happened. The contract is broken. I want my money back.
sometimelurker 4 hours ago|||
> It's a big democracy red flag when a majority wants to take a lot from a tiny minority

not to forget that the inverse is also bad; generally people shouldn't take from each other

larme 4 hours ago|||
> It's a big democracy red flag when a majority wants to take a lot from a tiny minority

It’s not “taking”. The rich give out some money so the society has a higher probability to stay peaceful. or a violent revolution may happen.

This is really a win win situation

atmavatar 4 hours ago||
> It's a big democracy red flag when a majority wants to take a lot from a tiny minority; the moral hazard of the unfairness is that it's unclear where this ends. (Saying "one-time" and "1%" are trying to limit that risk)

In the absence of any other considerations, I'd agree with you. However, the last half-century has seen that same tiny minority taking nearly all productivity gains from the rest, to the point that wealth inequality is greater now than during the first gilded age, so I have somewhat less sympathy for the tiny minority when the rest want to claw some of that back.

> It's a democracy red flag when an unpopular minority is vilified as the cause of society's problems. It short-circuits real policy making and distracts from real issues.

It's less of a red flag when that unpopular minority is the cause of society's problems. The ultra-wealthy have commandeered government to enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of us.

We have massive consolidation of markets and media due to lobbying for deregulation and against enforcing anti-trust laws. We have further wealth concentration, the likes of which exceeds even the first gilded age at the hands of massive tax cuts and loopholes predominantly benefiting only the wealthiest, while also cutting tax enforcement personnel, making it easier to get away with tax evasion. Of course, in the face of the massive budget deficits resulting from those tax cuts, we make cuts to important social programs affecting many (and with largely positive ROI) while protecting subsidies to some of the most profitable businesses on the planet and leaping at any chance to start wars abroad whenever we need to distract from embarrassments at home. We have lax enforcement of labor laws which would allow workers to organize and demand higher wages, while at the same time passing unconstitutional laws at the state level which try to prevent organized labor in the first place. We have not only allowed the federal minimum wage to lag significantly behind inflation, but we have lobbying groups coming out of the woodwork to stop any proposed increase. When we have large economic crises caused by the malfeasance of the wealthiest of the wealthy, our corrupt Congress passes large bail-outs for the culprits while telling the majority of us to suck it up and tighten our belts. Of course, our consolidated media landscape increasingly obfuscates the real problems, presenting alternate boogeymen like immigrants so the downward spiral continues.

Allowing so much wealth to concentrate in the hands of a tiny minority is itself a giant democracy red flag. The US is on the cusp of losing its democracy as a direct result, damaging global security and markets in its death throes. The mere existence of billionaires and their corrupting influence on government is the issue.

fra 3 hours ago||
If you follow his logic and believe that the ultra-wealthy pay too little tax (as e.g. Warren Buffett does), then a balanced approach is to set the tax rate to: "37% of income or 1.85% of wealth, whichever is higher".

This would close the gap between Buffett's tax rate and that of his secretary, but would not be the "highest taxes in the world" that PG decries.

Cider9986 3 hours ago||
It's not excessive to charge a 1% wealth tax when the people paying it don't pay any income tax thanks to their financial engineering.
ineptech 2 hours ago||
Always a pleasure to hear capital explain to labor why taxing capital is bad, but this seems like a giant red herring. I don't want a wealth tax so I can cut my income tax, I want a wealth tax to address inequality. Our existing policies have produced a very bad bad outcome - wealth inequality exceeding that of pre-Industrial England led by a small, essentially randomly-selected group of people so wealthy that they effectively run everything who have entirely captured a corrupt government and are very close to making the situation permanent - and a wealth tax is the only policy idea I know of with any chance of changing that.
hewasahaterboy 5 hours ago||
This blog post is incredibly tasteless. Really Paul should take it down and get the butler to wipe the egg off his face
Cider9986 3 hours ago||
It's not excessive to charge a 1% wealth tax when the people paying it don't pay any income tax thanks to their financial engineering.

Here is a cool website showing Wealth, shown to scale.

https://wealth.ronnycoste.com

SwellJoe 2 hours ago||
Whenever I've seen anyone suggesting a wealth tax, it is specifically to address the very wealthy who pay an effective 0% tax rate, because they use the "buy, borrow, die" strategy. These are not wage earners, working a regular job, these are folks who own enough assets that they can borrow their way through life, living lavishly, never contributing meaningfully to the common good, the roads they are chauffeured over, the infrastructure and laws they benefit mightily from, the police who protect their assets, etc.

Since a lot of billionaires pay practically nothing in taxes, relative to their wealth, a wealth tax that equates to a 20% income tax would be entirely reasonable, and they'd still pay a much smaller percentage than the taxes I pay from my wages. It closes a loophole, it doesn't punish the very rich. And, nobody is suggesting the average 401k or Robinhood portfolio should be subject to a wealth tax.

zedpm 6 hours ago|
Are there serious proposals to just add a wealth tax on top of the existing income tax that would apply to the sort of people who actually pay much in income tax vs capital gains? It's an honest question; I haven't seen proposals of that sort, so I'm skeptical that the arguments are meaningful here. For an individual like Jeff Bezos, he's paying virtually no tax under the normal income tax rates referenced in the article, but rather capital gains tax, which tops out at 20%, not 37%.
alistairSH 3 hours ago|
None that I've seen, though I'm sure somebody somewhere has introduced something.

All that I've seen are wealth taxes on top of some arbitrary (but very large) wealth level. The latest proposal from Congress applied a 2% tax to wealth above $50 million with an additional 1% (3% total) on wealth over $1 billion. Plus a 40% exit tax to stop them all from fleeing to the Bahamas or Monaco.

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