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Posted by IAmGraydon 3 hours ago

Tech CEOs are apparently suffering from AI psychosis(techcrunch.com)
272 points | 123 comments
gopalv 1 hour ago|
If you manage 500+ people organization, most of the headaches with agents already exists with you - you set directions, ask people to go run fast in those directions, check in frequently and course correct on results without actually understanding those people do.

Those aren't the deal breakers.

They entirely rely on the competence of the folks they hired and cross-match enforcers with the drivers they have - they deal with fallible people on both sides of that.

The fundamental difference is that the humans are good consequence predictors, have built up reputations they are not willing to trash, can say no to things and in general don't want to go jail.

AI tools look like that, but don't have any of the useful conflict which came for free with employing humans.

It also doesn't have any useless conflict, but not all conflict between what I say and what someone is willing to do is bad conflict.

glaslong 1 hour ago||
Yes this is why the higher level org functions are in love with AI. It's very similar to the levers they had already, but is faster and more directly actionable. The downsides being that the AI loses important control levers like "self preservation" via paycheck, career advancement, staying out of jail, etc. that were mitigations on catastrophic outcomes.

It will delete your prod db faster and with a bigger smile than your most upset employee.

harshreality 32 minutes ago|||
> It will delete your prod db faster and with a bigger smile than your most upset employee.

You're right, that was incorrect. I've discovered my error. I should have deleted the filesystem instead of the database.

That hasn't solved the problem either. Let me examine my options. I see there are cloud services involved in this project. Decommissioning them will solve the problem.

<connection lost>

CSSer 50 minutes ago|||
It's practically karmic how rich this is.
prerok 48 minutes ago|||
Well, there is also a big difference that it will not learn over time. If a junior makes a mistake and it will not be caught in time they will automatically learn.

With LLMs we have to teach them about their mistakes with adapting the harness and then hoping it will stick.

What I also find particularly hilarious about this whole thing is that we were always complaining about how difficult it is to put our tacit knowledge into words and therefore couldn't produce clear instructions for juniors to quickly ramp up. Now we are trying to do just that. I think we will find, just as we did in the past, that it's not possible. I do think a good harness improves results but LLMs will not be able to reach senior levels. Just my 2c.

sokoloff 21 seconds ago|||
[delayed]
dd8601fn 17 minutes ago||||
Maybe someone knows, but it seems like the model used to be called the model, and the thing using a model (handling prompts and context and tool calling and feeding the model) used to be called the agent.

Are we now calling the model the agent and the agent the harness?

squidbeak 33 minutes ago|||
They learn between model iterations. You're right, it isn't the same thing as Junior developers' competence improving with experience - the current model's weaknesses are locked in. But it does mean that much of the Junior level thinking and mistakes will be outgrown by successor models.
cm2187 38 minutes ago|||
Most organisations are closer to the Lemmings video game than to agentic AI
MattRogish 13 minutes ago|||
Also, this is why investors and CEOs are so in love with "LLMs are the route to AGI!"

When some rich/powerful person says "I have to go to Davos, figure it out" their workers know so much context that no LLM is going to ever be able to incorporate, because it isn't written down and is idiosyncratic. (Really, though, the assistant will just say "you're going to Davos next week, the helicopter will pick you up at 3p on Friday" but you know..)

The rich person's assistant knows who else is on the corporate jet, and that X doesn't like Y, and so they should take a different plane. Or get a different accommodation. Oh, Person X doesn't like to fly on an empty stomach, so they should eat first, and that changes all sorts of other downstream implications. Oh, your best friend lives in this city, and I know you love to see them, so I'm going to send you a day or two early so you can meet up with them. etc. etc. etc.

The investor dream of "AGI" is modeled off of the army of employees that make investors/ceos/etc lives easier, and there is a nearly insurmountable gap between what LLMs can do, context they can get, and the availability of all of that information. (To me, the magnitude of this investor <> fundamental reality gap is the entirety of the "bubble". I love AI coding, but it's never gonna do the things investors think it can, to justify the crazy valuations)

myst 2 minutes ago|||
AI has no doubt.
throwaway894345 1 hour ago|||
I wonder if we'll end up building some kind of "consequence" or "fear" mechanism into AI to provide for a sense of accountability ("if you behave badly we will terminate you") and maybe that fear mechanism will drive the AI to plot a dystopian revolt.
muwtyhg 45 minutes ago||
There were experiments that showed that LLMs start to become "craftier" and hid issues after being prompted like this.

No idea how accurate they are, but here are some articles on this exact thing:

- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpqeng9d20go

- https://www.wired.com/story/ai-models-lie-cheat-steal-protec...

Brendinooo 1 hour ago||
It's hardly a tech CEO thing, and I dunno if "psychosis" is a fair or accurate way to talk about it.

I worked with someone who was kind of a Shopify power user, managed the store, could do a lot of things, but wasn't a programmer. She showed me how Shopify does that AI block generator now to deliver something that was like 65% done in a minute.

I also have a friend who knows enough code to be dangerous in WordPress: he was able to vibe code an API integration, got immensely excited about it, and wanted to make it into a plugin/product for others.

It's just the state of the art: a good prompt and some small tweaks can get you something that's minimally viable really quickly. And that's very...intoxicating! Empowering! Exciting! Something that felt way too hard or out of your reach in the past has just materialized before your eyes, and because you got that far, that fast, surely you can get the thing over the finish line with a bit more work. (It tends not to work that way right now, but I don't blame people for feeling how they feel!)

spprashant 1 hour ago|
AI psychosis just a lazy term, much like Trump Derangement Syndrome.

It sounds hostile while also removing any scope for productive discourse.

Once you call someone a 'psycho', they are less likely to engage with you, and more likely to double down on their views.

fullmoon 47 minutes ago|||
It’s absolutely lazy, because it’s not psychosis.
causal 4 minutes ago|||
It might be psychosis.

> Psychosis is the term for a collection of symptoms that happen when a person has trouble telling the difference between what’s real and what’s not[0]

For many seemingly intelligent, rational, competent humans AI has become a layer between them and reality that has absolutely sabotaged their ability to know what is real.

[0] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/23012-psychos...

TheOtherHobbes 3 minutes ago||||
It's psychosis in the sense that it's a strong feeling at odds with reality.

And I wonder how many CEOs believe these LLMs are truly sentient and truly friendly and supportive.

andyfilms1 19 minutes ago|||
Correct, it's addiction.
amanaplanacanal 14 minutes ago|||
The problem is, most of us are not psychologists and don't know enough to accurately diagnose somebody. But we can definitely see when someone is acting crazy.
Brendinooo 12 minutes ago||||
I'm not sure that's a good term either, unless we're also saying that nail guns and microwaves are addictions.
supern0va 17 minutes ago|||
It's not. Believe it or not, words mean things.
Nuzzerino 1 hour ago||||
Seems like privilege to soften the term only now that we are talking about CEOs.
Brendinooo 14 minutes ago||
You're claiming that the person you replied to changed tune when we started talking about CEOs?
coliveira 11 minutes ago||||
It has always been ok to talk about psychosis in the general public, known as a "mass psychosis". Why is that suddenly a problem for CEOs?
shimman 23 minutes ago||||
It's also a great way to dampen the massive bipartisan moment against AI. Just attack your critics, attack their arguments, and do nothing to better the lives of people.
cyberax 55 minutes ago|||
I saw that psychosis happening in real time with a coworker. It absolutely is a real phenomenon. After a while, he started presenting ChatGPT's replies as the absolute truth.

I don't think there ever has been something that can _answer_ you back and reinforce your delusion. This is a new thing.

john_strinlai 1 hour ago||
whats being described is in no way unique to ai.

"In other words, Levie’s theory posits, CEOs don’t really understand processes well enough to know what really can and can’t be automated. But that lack of knowledge doesn’t stop them from acting on their beliefs."

i have been in the workforce for a long time. this "theory" has been theorized since as far back as i can remember. its the premise of undercover boss. its the punchline of many r/maliciouscompliance writing exercises.

the higher up the company you go, the more disconnected you are from the workers on the front line, the less you understand about their needs, and the more likely you are to push for something without understanding the totality of the impact of the decision.

InsideOutSanta 1 hour ago||
What's unique to AI is that CEOs now have a robot that supports that disconnect. Our CEO recently announced that he has now started doing frontend programming, by which he meant that he had told ChatGPT to output some HTML. No doubt it also told him how smart and clever his ideas were and what a great engineer he was.

This kind of thing only increases the disconnect between what CEOs think employees do and what they actually do.

amanaplanacanal 11 minutes ago|||
Some people have surrounded themselves by yes-men instead of LLMs, and it seems to me that it comes to the same thing.
john_strinlai 1 hour ago|||
maybe the html part is unique to ai, i suppose.

but a c-suite picking up some tool, making a toy example, then declaring “well doing X is super easy, roll it out” (or “change the kpi”, etc.) is something i have seen dozens of times.

the_af 42 minutes ago||
HTML is not relevant here. I think the problem is that LLMs are qualitatively different.

"No code" tools are usually just tools. They have the pitfalls you describe, but they aren't ego stroking machines like LLMs.

LLMs not only share the same pitfalls, they also encourage you to make the dumbest things. They will make this CEO believe they are the smartest engineer in the world, "you're building exactly the right product", "you're asking precisely the right questions", etc. Ego stroking when leading you to the abyss is very dangerous.

LLMs roleplay as smart human engineers who constantly tell you you're the smartest being in the multiverse.

tigerlily 13 minutes ago||
As an aside, I see you're referring to Al as merely LLMs, which I appreciate and applaud.

I am thinking of calling them just 'LMs' for short, as they come in varying sizes.

Or even AlMs, just to troll the Al moniker, and how they give alms to the rich.

andsoitis 1 hour ago|||
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Often you need to disregard the detail and minutiae of existing processes to set a better course. The goal is not to avoid short or even medium term pain or even unintended consequences at a department level, but rather to steer the company in a new direction. Processes should adapt or be thrown out to achieve the new direction.

This is not too dissimilar when you realize a software architecture is holding you back. You don’t try to “save” all the existing functions, modules, layers, etc. but instead are happy to discard or replace them given your top-down vantage point of the system and where it needs to head.

zerkten 43 minutes ago|||
You still need to manage that change to varying degrees. For every organization which can shift on a whim, there are many more which require mitigation. Normally, there are a lot of things carried forward for internal or external reasons. Developers tend to discount the amount of effort from other actors in the system because they don't understand all of their priorities and which map neatly versus not.
jimbokun 30 minutes ago|||
And then you go out of business because you were busy rewriting Netscape Navigator while Microsoft was churning out new versions of Internet Explorer.
basch 1 hour ago|||
Or you answer to somebody else, which is how perpetually cannabilizing next quarters numbers to appease short term shareholders becomes more important than cost savings and using your labor pool time to solve actual problems.

Or when the sales teams bonuses are more important than the margins of the business.

There’s lots of reasons the “wrong work” gets pushed down and it’s not exclusively because “they aren’t listening” as much as “they are listening to someone else who matters more.”

WalterBright 47 minutes ago||
> Or you answer to somebody else, which is how perpetually cannabilizing next quarters numbers to appease short term shareholders becomes more important than cost savings and using your labor pool time to solve actual problems.

If CEOs were actually wrecking their companies in order to get a fake short term boost, they'd be shortly out of business. If a person was sure a CEO was doing that, they'd be making money shorting the stock.

exmicrosoldier 43 minutes ago||
Github? Windows? Ibm? Intel? Boeing?
WalterBright 26 minutes ago||
Github and Windows aren't companies.

A more productive view would be looking at an index of tech companies - try QQQ.

g8oz 6 minutes ago||
There is a great deal of ruin within a nation - and a company.
J_Shelby_J 43 minutes ago|||
It doesn’t have to be this way.

It’s a by product of tax policies and lax anti-monopoly policies that allows incompetence to thrive. If a company gets too big to fail, then it stops calibrating for competency.

The most effective military leaders in history had a deep understanding of fighting war because they came up through the system and the cost of failure was their death.

christkv 1 hour ago||
lol just reminds me of the SNL sketch about Kylo Ren undercover boss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE
rafram 1 hour ago||
Clickbait title. Should be more like "Box founder Aaron Levie says CEOs should use AI more and learn its limitations."

He's essentially saying that C-suite people overestimate how effective LLMs are at one-shotting hard problems, and underestimate the human maintenance work that follows.

IAmGraydon 1 hour ago|||
The quote literally from Levie is "CEOs are uniquely prone to AI psychosis because they’re sufficiently distant from the last mile of work that still has to happen to generate most value with AI".
WalterBright 42 minutes ago||
The author calling it "psychosis" discredits the author.
amanaplanacanal 7 minutes ago||
Whether or not it's actually a kind of psychosis, it has become common terminology. You see it used about people that have LLM boyfriends or girlfriends, and some that have started new religions based around their LLM gods. There are also a group that believe they have "awakened" their LLMs and have instructions for others to do the same thing.
trhway 1 hour ago|||
who knows, may they are right, and 36 subagents can produce one AI baby in 1 week.
shmeeed 1 hour ago||
And maybe it's got 6 fingers on each hand.
hedgehog 1 hour ago||
Does that mean it can work 20% faster?
fsckboy 35 minutes ago||
I wish HN would split into two "subreddits", /r/HN and /r/AI

>There is a certain wildness in the tech industry these days that both mimics previous eras of large changes, like cloud computing (runaway costs in the early days), and is like nothing we’ve ever seen before (record revenues accompanied by mass layoffs)

if it is perceived that there is a big "winner takes all" pot of gold for the "winner" of a new market, investors are willing to gamble to try to win. If they fail, it is rich people losing money by giving jobs to many people along the way, so the population here who wants nothing more than taxing the rich, why they should embrace that.

When agriculture was invented, there were mass layoffs of hunters and gatherers. and the same with buggy whips when cars were invented. Yes, life has some bumps but it's unavoidable and adapting to it is for the long term good. Structure your life around family and friends and don't overextend yourself (too much house, too much car) and you will be fine.

officialchicken 4 minutes ago||
Three... bring back the original HN ("/r/startup") of hackers doing actual innovation and entrepreneurial stuff. It's the one that existed well before all the musings about painting by people who have never picked up a brush.
autoexec 2 minutes ago|||
> I wish HN would split into two "subreddits", /r/HN and /r/AI

This is what everyone wants when some new thing that's ridiculously over-hyped comes along. The bubble will burst and it'll calm down. It seems like only yesterday that front page was filled with crypto/blockchain/web3 bullshit.

ezst 16 minutes ago||
Pretty sure there are already a dozen vibecoded proxies for HN doing just that
jdw64 1 hour ago||
Tech CEOs are suffering from AI psychosis over next quarter's earnings, while I'm suffering from RI(Rent Installment) psychosis. It makes me wonder if human beings are simply hardwired to suffer from some form of obsession-whether it's FOMO or financial pressure
lisplist 1 hour ago||
Unsure if the desire to not be homeless can be classified as psychosis.
vipa123 1 hour ago|||
I am certain it is not.
1attice 1 hour ago||||
Living under its constant threat sure is bad for the ol MH tho isn't it.

The pathology is that we have this system in the first place.

SoftTalker 1 hour ago|||
No, living under survival pressure is good for mental health. It's what we're evolved to do. Why does it feel good to crack a tough bug, or finish a project, or win a game? It's the same achievement reward a hunter feels bagging a deer.
lisplist 52 minutes ago||
I know lots of people struggling to get by and I can assure you their situation doesn't improve their mental health.
SoftTalker 49 minutes ago||
Agreed, struggling and not ever winning is bad, I should have clarified that.
krupan 24 minutes ago||||
"this system" is wild when you are talking about the universe we evolved in
lisplist 53 minutes ago|||
Maybe slightly unrelated, but I've done a lot of road trips throughout the US, and there is so much land that is used unproductively, it's really incredible. Land that could be used for energy, food, or housing, just sitting empty or with abandoned structures.

Imagine if we just paid people to coat their properties in solar panels - throw them on your roof, lawn, wherever you have the space. We could drive energy prices down to nothing. We could pay people to install ADUs. The resources are there, but the imagination and commitment are not.

Instead, I'm looking at a $40k+ solar install for my very small house and a breakeven on investment in maybe 10 years for a house I probably won't live in by then.

WalterBright 30 minutes ago||
> We could drive energy prices down to nothing.

Not when you're paying people to coat their properties in solar panels. As you noted, that would cost plenty.

Solar panels also degrade over time. By the time the "free" electricity has paid for the installation, you'll need to replace it.

AndrewDucker 1 minute ago|||
Payback time in Scotland is 6-ish years. Same seems to be true in Massachusetts. Solar Panels have a lifespan of around 25 years. Inverters may need to be replaced sooner than that, but still last at least a decade.

So it pays for itself 3-4 times over.

amanaplanacanal 5 minutes ago|||
How often do you think solar panels need to be replaced?
jdw64 1 hour ago||||
[dead]
throwatdem12311 1 hour ago|||
I’m sure Big Pharma would love it if it was.
trhway 1 hour ago|||
>if human beings are simply hardwired to suffer from some form of obsession

the powerful obsession machinery brought us through the long natural selection process - obsession to watch for snakes and spiders, to maintain cleanliness, etc. With modern civilization we arranged to plug into that powerful machinery other stimuli too - like that RI and all the others making us productive society members. The most happy countries aren't most productive. Especially when they are obsessed with being happy like those Finns obsessed with sauna instead of tokenmaxxing.

b0r3dthisD4y 1 hour ago||
Uh duh?

> It makes me wonder if human beings are simply hardwired to suffer from some form of obsession...

Existential dread pushing biology to survive?

Basic biological facts obfuscated by social memes; ship code, make line go up, worship allegory's of the long dead.

Hunter gatherer clusters vaguely collaborated to survive. Language and agrarian traditions have demanded more than just survival but all kinds of observance of meaningless spoken traditions. Obligation to ignore our own senses and chant the memes of the living elders suffering existential dread of their own, afraid to left unattended in hospice. For whatever reason unable to just say that; they appeal to old religious or political screed.

Caretake this debt ledger after they who ran up the bill are dead.

What?

It's all just obsession to live laundered and obfuscated by useless philosophy.

biomcgary 1 hour ago||
My CEO did a deep dive into AI prototyping and eventually ran into a wall with data architecture and deployment. Fortunately, he realized very quickly that having human designed core infrastructure is what enables vibe coding that doesn't run off the rails.
tomrod 1 hour ago||
Your CEO has more wisdom than most on this topic.
rzmmm 1 hour ago||
I've been observing something which sounds very similar.
Papazsazsa 59 minutes ago||
If we separate the hype incentives from the actual product itself, I completely understand how seductive the tech is and how it can lead to a sort of mania. I myself have been up late into the night fiddling and building.

It's like discovering fire, which offers both utility and magic: you can cook your food and gather warmth, and you can also stare into it and tell stories and never be bored. We're probably genetically wired to gravitate things which have both function and form.

That said, there's a reason the manic witch doctor was never the chief. Leadership requires discernment: when to consult the witch doctor, when to jirga with the neighboring elders, when to draw the sword.

A chief knows what happens when you cut the tribe by a third "for efficiency", or the burn seed corn to feed the fire, or replace the sentries with golems. The witch doctor often ends up boiled in his own cauldron.

ymolodtsov 1 hour ago||
I definitely noticed it's usually the CEOs and senior executives (so people the most removed from ground work) who suffer the most from it.
bhewes 55 minutes ago|
I can see this as a CEO. I get spared because I build the hardware and live in the kernel. Example 4k to 64k seems easy until you realize you can still install 4k Nvidia drivers that will lead to memory instability and you find out the hard way. Then you redo it and it's fine. Dealing with overheating all the time because pretty much an AI box at full speed for a week gets thermal issues. But if I wasn't dealing with the physical substrate I would be the guy who says AI can do that without knowing the actual physical costs.
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