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Posted by mooreds 3 hours ago

To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks(musings.martyn.berlin)
99 points | 201 commentspage 3
CM30 2 hours ago|
Eh, I get the author's point, but I also feel like it's very much community dependent. Some places accept AI sure, but there's also a lot of sites that have a zero tolerance attitude towards it as well.

If you talk about using AI on Twitter, Threads, Mastodon or Bluesky, you will often get flamed to a crisp. If you talk about using AI on many subreddits or Discord servers you will get flamed to a crisp. If you talk about using it on many forums (especially software engineering and modding ones), you will start a flame war at best.

Even sites which would logically be more corporate friendly (like say, LinkedIn) have a lot of people who hate AI and all those that use it.

So I'm not sure that disliking AI necessarily makes you an outcast here. Yeah, you're not going to get along with its advocates, and there are quite a few companies and organisations that support it.

But there are also a lot of places that despise it's very existence, and where being a critic of AI is the normal, 'mainstream' view.

eggbrain 2 hours ago||
> [...] People do not realise how much of a toll it takes on you if you actually care about the environment, exploited workers, theft from the people who can least afford it, the impact on people's cognitive skills, the centralisation of power, the spread of disinformation, the ruination of the web and/or the destruction of entire career paths (not billionaire of course, that's always a safe one), and not endorsing (either distinctly or tacitly by using) AI.

I believe people do understand the toll caring about something deeply takes -- but caring about all these things at once, many which you personally can't control, feels more like atlas syndrome or compassion fatigue by the author.

I also find the author a bit all-or-nothing in general. Losing friends because they use AI? Why does the dichotomy have to be so black and white? Can people have moral quandaries about AI while still using it, or does the moral stance always have to be absolute?

tedmiston 1 hour ago||
> I know the technology, I understand what it's doing and I know the impact, so I am vehemently anti-AI.

Author: Goes on to demonstrate superficial (mis)understanding of the technology by proliferating misconceptions peppered with anecdata and heavy virtue signaling and calling it a blog post.

Hmm, okay, then...

Is anyone else annoyed by this kind of ironically [^1] weak thinking / writing that conflates: (1) one's own personal opinions and biases however long-standing or irrelevant; (2) limited working knowledge of the actual technology; and (3) virtue signaling / moral posturing / etc? ... and then ultimately just stirs that all up in a pot to not actually say anything more substantial than "AI bad". It's such an overstated, bland, lifeless, useless, uninteresting, intellectually lazy take.

Clutching onto a weak opinion, strongly held [^2] does not make one an "outcast" ... it just comes off as closed-minded and melodramatic. Is that even contrarian? Being on the majority side of an unnuanced opinion is about as far away from being an outcast as possible...

--

Very few of the moral panic type issues those vehemently opposed to LLMs are raising repeatedly are really unique to that field... because why? [Because LLMs are not the problem.]

- Where was said moral posturing when we were building the cloud computing infrastructure?

- Where is the concern of "wasting" compute resources when using 10–15 GB of bandwidth to stream a 90-min movie in 4k?

--

[^1]: Better not call the poorly written human authored post of poor quality "slop" though!

[^2]: Not a typo.

samat 2 hours ago||
It started well, and then he is suddenly sick because fellow member of the drama group made a poster using AI without consulting him (her?)

Anyways, people looking for drama will find one

217 2 hours ago||
First ever argument being "People do not realise how much of a toll it takes on you if you actually care about the environment"

GUYS

PLEASE

The impact of ai on the enviroment is one of the dumbest psyops in history, how can you claim to know start with that after claiming you know the technology and what it is doing?

There are hundreds of reasons to hate ai but this is just NOT it

mlyle 2 hours ago||
Parts of it (e.g. water consumption per query) are overblown.

But the degree of data center buildout and resource use, if exponential growth just continues a little longer, is going to end up being a big number. AI datacenters are already stretching electrical power grids and increasing peaker power plant use.

Data centers right now are about 5% of electricity use in the US. AI could easily double that share.

cm2012 2 hours ago|||
Yes, any major manufacturing ends up as a big number. It is still usually worth doing!
hrideshmg 2 hours ago|||
I was thinking about this the other day. Surely, a datacenter, even one optimized for machine learning workloads could switch gears and do other kinds of computations.

Even if the bubble were to pop, i feel like the worst that could happen is that we would have a bunch of inactive datacenters that could be switched on to meet demands of the growing internet. Kind of like how nuclear plants operate.

cmiiw to think along these lines though.

mlyle 2 hours ago|||
Well, stuff tends not to get completely wasted, but:

- AI datacenters are gold-rush rush jobs with interesting things like their own gas turbine generators etc.

- It's not clear that serving the internet needs us to double the amount of datacenter footprint. If anything, a lot of workloads are getting more power and space efficient.

- Most expensive thing is that we're filling them full of GPUs and with RAM tied up to the GPUs. That's infrastructure that we've paid the resource costs for and it's difficult to repurpose to something else.

I do think AI is going to grow a lot, so I'm not sure how much of the buildout will need repurposing. But I do think doubling our datacenter footprint and doing it in environmentally yucky ways will probably have some lasting effects and consume a lot of resources.

zozbot234 2 hours ago|||
These are more like HPC supercomputers than garden variety datacenters. That's why there's so much concern re: water use for the electricity being supplied. (That's easy to address in principle, of course: wind and solar power use up negligible amounts of water compared to other sources.)
mlyle 2 hours ago||
Most of the water concern is evaporative cooling of the datacenter itself. But IMO not too much of a concern. The energy use and the resource use to make the chips, etc, is bigger.
onesociety2022 2 hours ago|||
There was a chart on Twitter comparing the water usage of AI datacenters to that of the California almond farms and the golf courses all over the country. AI’s water usage is tiny compared to those.
Tubelord 2 hours ago|||
Care to elaborate? Just taking the impact of data centers on locals is enough to validate his point. (Noise pollution, heat pollution and emissions from on-site gas turbines)
cm2012 2 hours ago||
Local governments can do the trade off on tax revenue vs inconvenience
senko 2 hours ago||
Yeah, it's weird, nobody's saying "we should make all the data centres use closed loop cooling even if it's more expensive for them!", but a lot of voices are yelling "AI uses water!", referring to the same thing.

I mean, email and Hacker News and Netflix use water, too.

skeledrew 2 hours ago||
Something that I've started looking into and I think could become an interesting metric is resource usage comparison of # of average-request prompts against minutes of audio/video streaming. Then we can start to say things like "you know, watching a 10-minute YouTube video uses roughly the same amount of resources as 60 prompts" and hopefully have a more down-to-earth conversation surrounding our ecological impact and how we assign value.
CurtMonash 2 hours ago||
There are clearly coherent "moral" arguments to be made against mainsteam AI, in areas such as resource consumption, capitalist power, and so on. Some are correct; others, while in my opinion unpersuasive, are at least coherent.

But the article places more stress on arguments of the sort "It's evil to use AI because it doesn't work very well", and those don't seem very logical to me. Oh, SOME arguments of that kind make sense, e.g. in the area of autonomous weapons, but the author didn't focus on extreme cases such as those.

okeuro49 2 hours ago||
Its funny that the article uses Wikipedia as an example, given it is a tool that always needs a caveat: "anyone can edit it, always use the source, never trust it directly."

There are many instances where I have seen Wikipedia have bias, or be misinformation.

AI just needs the caveat that it is not really intelligent, but a very good predictive text machine, which you should always ask to provide citations.

CamperBob2 2 hours ago|
"Really not intelligent," yet capable of taking gold at international math and programming competitions. <img src=surejan.jpg>
hrideshmg 2 hours ago|
Kinda weird that the authors response to a 'friend' using Siri to query how long a medication lasts was not wanting to hang with them anymore rather than educating them on how AI can hallucinate information.

Having a moral stance is good, but isolating yourself rather than fighting for it and then complaining about being an outcast is utterly puzzling.

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