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Posted by mooreds 4 hours ago

To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks(musings.martyn.berlin)
106 points | 227 commentspage 4
fionic 3 hours ago|
Holy cow this is whiny And essentially saying no one else has morals… yikes.

Other people do understand AI sucks and are even anti ai while still using it… personally I have been anti tech forever (When it comes to privacy, bot misinformation, psychological health, all of it) but yeah dude I still use it and have a job in it bc it’s paying bills and it supports our family and there are some good things about it it’s not all bad.

In terms of actually trying to create a revolution in tech (unionizing, making change, ending it, whatever you think) I would love to see the bad things go but I don’t see it being possible. It’s like saying: I don’t like cars (and I’m better than everyone else bc I walk) bc cars are bad for the environment and people die STOP DRIVING CARS… there’s absolutely no way people are going to stop driving cars.

Tubelord 3 hours ago|
He left a caveat for you if you read it
217 3 hours ago||
First ever argument being "People do not realise how much of a toll it takes on you if you actually care about the environment"

GUYS

PLEASE

The impact of ai on the enviroment is one of the dumbest psyops in history, how can you claim to know start with that after claiming you know the technology and what it is doing?

There are hundreds of reasons to hate ai but this is just NOT it

mlyle 3 hours ago||
Parts of it (e.g. water consumption per query) are overblown.

But the degree of data center buildout and resource use, if exponential growth just continues a little longer, is going to end up being a big number. AI datacenters are already stretching electrical power grids and increasing peaker power plant use.

Data centers right now are about 5% of electricity use in the US. AI could easily double that share.

cm2012 3 hours ago|||
Yes, any major manufacturing ends up as a big number. It is still usually worth doing!
hrideshmg 3 hours ago|||
I was thinking about this the other day. Surely, a datacenter, even one optimized for machine learning workloads could switch gears and do other kinds of computations.

Even if the bubble were to pop, i feel like the worst that could happen is that we would have a bunch of inactive datacenters that could be switched on to meet demands of the growing internet. Kind of like how nuclear plants operate.

cmiiw to think along these lines though.

mlyle 3 hours ago|||
Well, stuff tends not to get completely wasted, but:

- AI datacenters are gold-rush rush jobs with interesting things like their own gas turbine generators etc.

- It's not clear that serving the internet needs us to double the amount of datacenter footprint. If anything, a lot of workloads are getting more power and space efficient.

- Most expensive thing is that we're filling them full of GPUs and with RAM tied up to the GPUs. That's infrastructure that we've paid the resource costs for and it's difficult to repurpose to something else.

I do think AI is going to grow a lot, so I'm not sure how much of the buildout will need repurposing. But I do think doubling our datacenter footprint and doing it in environmentally yucky ways will probably have some lasting effects and consume a lot of resources.

zozbot234 3 hours ago|||
These are more like HPC supercomputers than garden variety datacenters. That's why there's so much concern re: water use for the electricity being supplied. (That's easy to address in principle, of course: wind and solar power use up negligible amounts of water compared to other sources.)
mlyle 3 hours ago||
Most of the water concern is evaporative cooling of the datacenter itself. But IMO not too much of a concern. The energy use and the resource use to make the chips, etc, is bigger.
onesociety2022 3 hours ago|||
There was a chart on Twitter comparing the water usage of AI datacenters to that of the California almond farms and the golf courses all over the country. AI’s water usage is tiny compared to those.
Tubelord 3 hours ago|||
Care to elaborate? Just taking the impact of data centers on locals is enough to validate his point. (Noise pollution, heat pollution and emissions from on-site gas turbines)
cm2012 3 hours ago||
Local governments can do the trade off on tax revenue vs inconvenience
senko 3 hours ago||
Yeah, it's weird, nobody's saying "we should make all the data centres use closed loop cooling even if it's more expensive for them!", but a lot of voices are yelling "AI uses water!", referring to the same thing.

I mean, email and Hacker News and Netflix use water, too.

skeledrew 3 hours ago||
Something that I've started looking into and I think could become an interesting metric is resource usage comparison of # of average-request prompts against minutes of audio/video streaming. Then we can start to say things like "you know, watching a 10-minute YouTube video uses roughly the same amount of resources as 60 prompts" and hopefully have a more down-to-earth conversation surrounding our ecological impact and how we assign value.
reedf1 3 hours ago||
We can't put the genie back in the bottle.
xigoi 3 hours ago||
—slave owners at the start of the Atlantic slave trade
skeledrew 3 hours ago|||
We can, however, try to ensure that the genie answers equally to everyone, which I think is the way to go.
forinti 47 minutes ago||
I'm pretty sure the genie will put itself back in the bottle when the bubble bursts. But it will leave its tail outside.
estetlinus 3 hours ago||
> the ruination of the web and/or the destruction of entire career paths

The web is only about 30 years old and has never existed in some fixed, ideal state. Sure, it’s noisier and increasingly full of AI-generated slop, but are we already at the “everything was better in the old days” stage?

As for the destruction of career paths, technological change has been doing that for centuries. Digitization alone transformed or eliminated countless professions. I’d be curious what the authors’ moral stance is on those disruptions. Is the concern specifically about AI, or about technological progress more generally?

I put this blog under the old grumpy man file for now.

wiseowise 2 hours ago|
> The web is only about 30 years old and has never existed in some fixed, ideal state.

Sure it did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

4ashgt 3 hours ago||
It is fun watching the thieves squirm in this thread and being upset at others calling them criminals. "But think of the loom," they say. The loom wasn't stolen by a replicator.
forinti 3 hours ago||
I have had a little success by arguing that "we can live without AI, but we can't live without X" and then I've managed to get some priorities in order. The AI craze is insane and it does have some support inside IT but it's the pressure from outside that's hard to resist.
Kuyawa 3 hours ago||
What's wrong about a beautiful banner done beautifully with AI? What's wrong with a new app done in 5 mins by a coding agent? What's wrong about AI tracking a license plate crossing every corner with your kidnapped daughter?

A couple of days ago I started having watery eyes and suddenly 'pink eye' was a term in DeepSeek with all the answers, viral, bacterial and fungal which I didn't know. According to symptoms it was a bacterial type so Tobramycin was the answer, the dose, the care. Two days later and cured even though I have to continue treatment for at least six days as directed by AI. It's not a miracle, just science at your fingertips, human knowledge put to good and bad use, pick your side.

I totally welcome our new AI overlords.

wiseowise 2 hours ago||
Almost got me there, if it wasn't for

> What's wrong about AI tracking a license plate crossing every corner with your kidnapped daughter?

Very subtle.

bethekidyouwant 3 hours ago|||
Your eyes were irritated and you took an antibacterial eyedrop which is basically the only product on the market for such a condition… I’m really not sure Google would’ve failed you 10 years ago or even just asking your pharmacist 20 years ago
34asg 2 hours ago||
Tobramycin is not prescription-free. Cool story, bro.
cm2012 3 hours ago||
I mean if you had the same reaction when personal computers were made, you would also be an outcast. They also put whole industries out of business and caused huge pollution and etc. There is no real difference. But you have a right to withdraw from the world and be a luddite.
AbrahamParangi 3 hours ago||
This is going to be an unpopular reply I imagine but this person is not well and their behavior should not be imitated. This is a classic example of omnicause anxiety, like people who refuse to have children because of all these things happening in the world as if the world hasn't always been a mess. Frankly, ridiculous.
TaupeRanger 3 hours ago||
It's part of this nihilistic undercurrent, especially among Millennials and younger generations. "I'm not having kids, have you seen the world?" "I'm not saving for retirement, Social Security won't exist and the oceans will swallow the continent by the time I reach retirement age." "I refuse to use AI tools that could help me create new things and reach my goals, because the influencers told me AI is going to poison the water". Quite sad actually.
graemep 3 hours ago||
Its a problem of the privileged in both cases — a first world problem. People with real problems do not think like that.
noitpmeder 3 hours ago|
I mean it's almost like having a moral stance on the assembly line, or calculators. If they truly do provide massive technological benefits, and it turns out the externalities aren't as bad as some are projecting, it's hard to argue AI is not another extremely useful tool in your tool belt.

Now, if AI leads to global ruin/... obviously some people will be able to say "See! I knew this would happen!", but again, at this point it feels AI is no worse morally than the existing allocation of upside/downside that big-techgopolies have had for at least the last decade.

forinti 3 hours ago|
Calculators give you the right answer. AI gives you any answer. I work within a bureaucracy and instead of optimising processes and getting rid of useless documents, AI is being used to generate more useless text. It is the industrialisation of bureaucracy and it is a turbo powered waste of resources.
noitpmeder 1 hour ago||
Then your issue isn't with AI, it's with your bureaucracy. Just because your company is holding it wrong doesn't mean the entire technology is morally fraught.

If your company's goal is to generate "more useless text" they would have done it with or without AI. AI just let's the peons responsible for producing that text do so significantly faster, with some percentage loss in "quality" baked in. Are you mad their jobs are easier? Was their text once not useless and now it is?

Again, it's like saying the conveyor belt is evil because it lets us generate more useless toys/candy/guns/... and research into improving the conveyor belt should instead be going toward more valuable things. However it ALSO has those effects on EVERYTHING. It lets you produce more drugs, books, food, clothes, necessities, and yes, some useless items too.

Same with AI. Sure you can use it to spew cat pictures, but you can also use it to generate significant quantities of non-trivial useful (not necessarily bullet proof, but undoubtedly _useful_) output in a fraction of the time and/or HUMAN capital (butts-in-seats, time-on-task, ...) than before. Now, as always, value is in the eye of the beholder (which is why your C suite gets giddy at all the useless text output).

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