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Posted by igmn 15 hours ago

Dopamine Fracking(igerman.cc)
687 points | 353 comments
sheepscreek 4 hours ago|
I love this term - I think it beautifully describes the direction that at least, YouTube is heading towards. Take for example, this racket where a channel copies popular (non-kids) creators’ parody work, splits the screen in half with the content on left, adds a completely random DIY type video on the right half, and lo and behold its content for kids who are too young to know any better[1].

Another one: AI voiceovers on videos taken from Asian apps, with some made up emotional story, followed by “if you love your mom, like and subscribe” - which kids (< 8yrs) actually do![2]

Or for that matter that YouTube makes it so hard to block channels and impossible to unblock specific channels (at least for kids). The platform has been unwilling to do anything about it for years. I suppose maybe this isn’t the best example but it’s definitely along the lines of a corporation prioritizing profits over all else, especially disregarding the wellbeing of their users.

1. https://youtu.be/VF4V7bRjjdo https://youtu.be/UoGuLabqgrk

2. https://youtube.com/shorts/B2ZNFiix8JA https://youtube.com/shorts/0eYYKRRcYrA

skwirl 2 hours ago||
It is crazy to me that any parent of young children would let their kids watch YouTube videos on their own. Maybe this happened gradually enough that some parents didn't notice, but we had our first kid a couple years ago and I nope'd out of YouTube pretty quickly when I saw what was there. Even the channels known for being good - which we occasionally let the kids watch as long as we were present and choosing the videos - started to clearly optimize for engagement over quality, and so now we're done with it entirely. The stuff there for "kids" legitimately horrifies me.
boringg 1 hour ago|||
Agreed - even older children shouldn't be exposing themselves to that garbage. Totally garbage in garbage out situation. Youtube can be good if its highly curated -- otherwise its just trash.
salemh 41 minutes ago|||
[dead]
ghurtado 1 hour ago|||
The problem of 8yr olds watching too much YouTube is definitely not one for YouTube to fix.

We're quickly getting to a point where all parenting is delegated to people and institutions that have nothing to do with raising children.

And then we complain that our kids are not being raised properly. We don't even know who to blame for this any more.

xyzzy_plugh 1 hour ago|||
I'd like to agree but practically there are difficulties enforcing it. Anecdotally I know of some parents having a battle with their local school because their kids have been watching this sort of crap in kindergarten.

Fundamentally it seems like building products designed to target children with harmful content, or content that substitutes for educational material, should not be accepted by society.

So yes parents are responsible but maybe we should stop building The Torment Nexus but for children.

bondarchuk 1 hour ago||
Fundamentally it seems like kindergartens showing youtube videos to kids should not be accepted by society.
lo_zamoyski 10 minutes ago||||
> We're quickly getting to a point where all parenting is delegated to people and institutions that have nothing to do with raising children.

This is just the logical conclusion of consumerism.

Consumerism produces careerism. Careerism produces the two income household. A two income household cannot devote the needed time to raising children during their early years. Day care and school and after school activities has been used to keep children busy while parents were hunting for that next promotion and the bigger paycheck to get the better car to get the better "status" in the eyes of their neighbors.

The zombie is the perfect symbol for consumerism, because it involves a mindless, indiscriminate, beastly, and insatiable hunger that would sell his own grandmother for that next disposable morsel.

I think we really need to reshape things to conform to biological and human reality instead of working against it. In the case of women, our culture as well as our political and economic structures must support the ability of women to have children earlier and to be able to raise them themselves during their early years. Many women do actually want this, but the culture pressures them to do otherwise or convinces them that the consumerist lifestyle is more attractive, causing them to defer having children (constraining their fertile years) and to pursue careers that increasingly make it difficult to choose to relinquish for at least some time as they raise their children.

aaroninsf 1 hour ago|||
This reads like literal propaganda.

Every assertion of personal responsibility (sic) in the face of billion to trillion dollar industry spending is bad faith, zero exceptions.

British Petroleum invented the concept of personal climate footprint. That was bad faith and to put a point on it, evil.

Tech industry claims that engagement farming and addition manufacture should be opposed by "parenting" are even less credible.

kakacik 1 hour ago||
Yes and no. Look around you and count how many properly failing parents there are. Parents who literally offload their parenting to a tablet, TV, phone, nanny which is often on phone herself, whatever. Then complain kids are unruly when they don't simply listen to them like soldiers. Parents, who are often as addicted to the screens (and more) as their kids. Recent studies showed above half of toddlers below 2 spend an hour or more daily on screens, thats fucked up.

I can count many such parents, way too many that I know. Kids before 5-6 should not access internet and should not watch TV. Don't trust me, trust children psychologists. Its toxic to their developing brains and personalities. Let them fuck up their lives on their own later if they must, don't give them hard addiction from the literal start of life, just because 'oh daddy has this super important work so doesn't have time to be a parent' syndrome, especially when its mostly empty pathetic soul draining white collar work with 0 added value to humanity.

And if one is truly changing the world for the better (as in 1 out of those maybe 10 humans actually currently doing it) and can't spare time for some kids, then don't have them, its not some freakin' checkbox ticked and moving to next challenge and achievement unlocked. Its by far the hardest effort one can make in one's life, spans over 2+ decades, be never 100% successful, while facing many real risks of failure completely outside of one's powers (no I don't mean peer pressure phones in school, rather ie health issues)

ryandrake 1 hour ago|||
> Parents, who are often as addicted to the screens (and more) as their kids.

This is a huge part of it. Kids are great at spotting hypocrisy, and if you tell them to put down the screens, yet you yourself are scrolling Instagram all day, the kid is going to know you are full of shit! It's like smoking a cigarette while telling your kid that smoking is bad for you.

mplanchard 1 hour ago||||
I think this is a “yes, and” kind of situation. Yes, a lot of parents suck, and yes, we should try to improve that situation, but also yes, we absolutely should punish megacorporations for making parents’ jobs harder by targeting children with their proven-to-be-harmful products.

Like, parents shouldn’t give cigarettes to their children, BUT ALSO it is both illegal and immoral for tobacco companies to target children.

lazide 1 hour ago|||
And how many of those parents are spending 50+ hours a week (or more) working too?

There are finite fucks anyone can give, and if someone is working all day keeping a roof over their head, what else is it going to happen?

smallmancontrov 4 hours ago|||
It's wild that the same easily detectable spam formula from a decade ago is still active beneath every finance video today: "I'm confused! Well I gave my money to Mr. Scammy McScamface and he gave me 1000% returns! Google Scammy McScamface now!"
zahlman 1 hour ago|||
> Take for example...

... Do I want to know how you came across stuff like this?

stellamariesays 4 hours ago||
[flagged]
raumgeist 10 hours ago||
Reminds me of Adornos "Dialektik der Aufklärung" and its take on what he calls the "Kulturindustrie". Almost 100 years ago he foresaw how the cultural offerings of society get commodified and chopped into bite sized chunks for each individual to receive theirs. He did not forsee us taking it this far, nor the addictive nature of the consumption though.

An additional danger is how this pulls all of us down. Staying with the articles example, by adding artificial strawberries flavour to everything those that could have enjoyed the natural experience never get the opportunity to do so, preventing them from acquiring the taste. Cultural offerings do have some educational responsibility after all.

plastic-enjoyer 9 hours ago||
You have a whole strand of German and French cultural pessimism that foresaw the convergence of mass media to the current point to some degree.

> Staying with the articles example, by adding artificial strawberries flavour to everything those that could have enjoyed the natural experience never get the opportunity to do so, preventing them from acquiring the taste.

I would go so far to say, that even if people tasted the real thing, they would prefer the artificial product. For example, we have Sauce Hollondaise in my country, and most people were probably raised on the convenience product. The original sauce is very cumbersome to make and almost no one makes it fresh. So, I've noticed that even if people taste the 'real' sauce, they prefer the convenience product.

fireflash38 7 hours ago|||
Maple syrup is a big one. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to even fancy breakfast restaurants and had real maple syrup.

Cracker barrel used to, decades ago now. It's all garbage corn syrup now. I'd rather not have syrup at all than that cloying, thick, gross stuff.

hammock 5 hours ago|||
At a restaurant it’s hard because people use way too much and it’s expensive stuff. A solution could be tiny packaged packets of it, the way they do with butter (in part for much the same reason)
sciencejerk 2 hours ago||||
I grew up with fake Maple Syrup (high fructose corn syrup), so when I first tried REAL maple syrup as an adult, I preferred the fake, thick corn product over the genuine watery, ultra sweet tree product.
boscillator 2 hours ago||||
Huh, I've been to plenty of places were you could order it for an up charge and it came in it's own little bottle.
barbs 6 hours ago||||
Heh, I thought of maple syrup as well. And I'm ashamed to say I prefer the fake stuff! Although it's likely because it's what I had as a child, so there's a strong nostalgia factor.
nick__m 4 hours ago|||
What's the grade of the maple syrup you tried ? (the new grading system is stupid everything is grade A with a color name)

In my opinion,

The A golden is light and subtle, I don't know what it's for; it's the variety we sell in tourists, and to peoples that likes fancy bottles and higher prices!

The A amber is great as a condiment in small quantities, for pancakes it's the best.

The A dark is the best for cooking deserts.

And the A very dark is my favorite for cooking meats like ham and ribs.

So if you only tasted the A golden I can see why you would prefer the fake syrup if you were raised on that stuff. But I would be surprised if you prefer the fake stuff to the A dark.

lo_zamoyski 1 hour ago||
This is where I would note that tastes can be deformed. It is possible, for various reasons, to acquire bad tastes (here, childhood nostalgia).
bethekidyouwant 4 hours ago|||
I refuse to believe this is true.

t.Quebec

BiteCode_dev 6 hours ago||||
A Canadian friend brought me back 2 bottles of local maple syrup as a gift. Ok, I'm a pretentious Frenchman when it comes to food and I do think most North Americans have no idea how real food tastes.

But that stuff, I didn't know how it really tasted before trying the OG thing.

Globalisation gave us the illusion of experiencing the world.

subscribed 5 hours ago||
I think it's worse than that. It promotes race to the bottom.

I love strawberries, blueberries (bilberry variety) and tomatoes, but apart of the few times in the year when I can collect my own or visit a PYO farm I'm not eating them at all.

Every shop (small and huge alike) only sells the fake, hyper-accelerated garbage (sorry Spain and Morocco, but that stuff is just gross), or - in season - locally grown similarly tasteless but raised on BPA, PFAS, dioxins, flame retardants, etc[1]

I can't even buy the quality stuff. It's just not being sold, because people only buy and eat trash :(

[1] not exaggeration - fuck British farmers knowingly pouring poison on their fields and the corrupt UK governments[2] for openly permitting it, may they get impacted by it: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/jan/16/uk-farml...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3e5y85p488o

psadauskas 3 hours ago|||
I visit Maui fairly regularly, and its the same thing with local "Maui Gold" pineapple. It is a completely different fruit from the Dole crap you buy in supermarkets on the mainland. Whenever I'm there I'll eat pineapples until my tongue burns, and when I'm home I don't eat it at all.
kbrkbr 50 minutes ago||||
But what happens here, let me point that out for completeness, is not a dark conspiracy. At least not on this level.

People go to the grocery store and buy the cheapest thing that does the trick, probably because they can't afford something else. Bills want to be payed.

subscribed 3 minutes ago||
Partially agree, in case of Aldi/Asda/Lidl but mostly not.

They don't have a choice, they cannot encounter a good vegetables and fruits in the normal stores. They CANNOT, at least in the UK. It's that simple. Maybe during some events, as a curiosity.

Good quality vegetables are not available on the shelves in general. Maybe in some cases, yeah. Some. But generally not. Similarly with meat, although it's much easier here to find something decent.

The difference in taste and quality between the cheapest and most expensive fresh fruits and vegetables in the supermarkets is virtually none. If you don't believe me, you don't have to, I simply grew plenty of that as a kid and a teenager, I keep growing some, and the difference between the average garden-sourced (or PYO/small farm sourced) and the Aldi/M&S/Waitrose/Tesco is simply too big to describe, you'd have to try it.

So there's an illusion of choice between awful and bad - in that case I'm simply choosing imported (thanks to the landfill and manufacturing waste in our great British food chain). People who don't know, or don't care pick whatever looks the best.

Some buy the cheapest. Not everyone buys the cheapest - you can't seriously claim that in case of the expensive stores (Sainsbury's, M&S, Waitrose).

And then there's palate problem. If someone was raised on these garbage produce, they may even favour it over healthy, proper ones. Proper radish will have a bite to it. Proper tomato has a complex profile (and there's hundreds of varieties of that too), instead of how garden stores describe it being "tasty"....

Consumers have been dumbed down and trained into accepting inferior livestock feed as food, and thanks for that they can for example say with a straight face that they actually like or prefer Tesco white toast bread.

(they've been scammed)

short_sells_poo 5 hours ago|||
Living in London, I notice the same. Getting access to true quality produce is not even a question of money now, it's basically just impossible to get full stop. There are a few local shops in the more upmarket areas that survive on the fact that people are willing to pay the 2-3x premium over the prices at Waitrose.

Gone are the days when you could ask the grocer or farmer to give you a peach to taste. People got used to having 24/7/365 access to everything, and supermarkets optimized purely for looks instead of taste and nutrition, because you aren't allowed to taste anything there. The only thing you can go by is the looks. This means looks sell.

I'd hazard a guess the vast majority of brits don't even know what a proper strawberry tastes like, because the only thing they can buy are beautifully polished turds. Everything tastes watery and crap, or conversely just generic "sweet".

I wouldn't even blame farmers. Their life is hard enough. They are operating on razor thin margins in a very uncertain environment. The consumer (against their own interests) demands that they produce beautifully and cheap turds, so that's what they'll produce. And if you try to do the right thing, you simply run out of money because you can't compete with the turds at the supermarket.

I only have empirical evidence for this, but it got much worse since Brexit as well. The variety has gone down a lot, I see shelves routinely empty at supermarkets and they all seem to be focusing on the same ultraprocessed crap.

subscribed 4 hours ago|||
I agree, farmers are not responsible for everything, but definitely for pouring the toxic sludge. That's their choice. Conscious, willful. I doubt they'd make a tea on the water leeching from the landfill so why do they think it's okay to use it on the fields? Nasty.

But I agree, most of the blame lies on the corrupt government (can't think of a better reason explaining why they sanction the above practice or why they gleefully ignore supermarkets role in the "cost of living crisis" - part of it being squeezing the farmers in the same way they squeeze the customers).

And i agree it's been much worse since Brexit - the customer has been conditioned to tolerate worse quality and choice for ever higher prices. Continuous approval to neonicotinoids use in our fields is telling as well.

Gross and saddening. I'm telling my kids to get their education and leave the UK. Being EU country citizens they might even study in some cleaner and saner place.

gyanchawdhary 4 hours ago|||
You should try Natoora in Notting Hill or Daylesford. I live in Belgravia and am admittedly spoiled for choice .. the Harrods Food Hall has excellent seasonal and harder to find fruits, and Daylesford consistently has some of the best British produce I've come across... the one in Sloane street even has the best organic Alphanso Mangos from India.

As for Brexit, I actually think it's been a net positive.

short_sells_poo 2 hours ago||
You have to be joking, right? So you are saying that it's all fine, because we can just go to Harrods to get quality food?

Nevermind that I hate Harrods and that entire area with a passion. It's a tasteless, glitzy tourist trap.

My post was all about the fact that barring a tiny percentile of people who a) live in an affluent area and b) are willing to pay 2-3x the regular supermarket prices, you cannot get good quality food. And you say "ah it's simples, just go to the most egregiously flashy beacon of division between the rich and poor and you can get good fruit"

Thank you, I can still get good fruit at my local grocer in Wimbledon, because it charges 2-3x over the regular high street prices and there are people around who can pay this. Doesn't help someone living in Croydon and having to go to Tesco, does it now.

gyanchawdhary 25 minutes ago||
Why is appreciation of excellence so often mistaken for ostentation … driving a Rolls or bentley, living in a grand Georgian terrace in Zone 1, enjoying a glass of Romanée at Zuma, or wearing exquisite Italian made cashmere are all examples of exceptional European craftsmanship and heritage. Yet those who enjoy such things are casually labelled by folks like you as flashy, pompous, or glitzy. Why? What is the real objection kind sir ? Croydon (especially east Croydon) is an absolute shit hole .. it’s full of illegal immigrants, and lots of crime and drug users .. they are more likely to appreciate an undercooked McDonald’s chicken tender than fresh organic winter peas from a farm in Wiltshire lol
tetris11 6 hours ago|||
the real stuff was arguably improved upon with the thicker replacement. I don't want wet pancakes.
threetonesun 5 hours ago|||
As New Englander I feel it's important to note that there are, like olive oil, various grades of maple syrup. They changed the system but Grade B / Dark maple syrup is the best for pancakes and "thickness". If you want to make a sauce or cook with it, golden or amber are fine.
brookst 4 hours ago||
That grade switch was crazy. I spent decades learning grade B is what I wanted, now it’s grade A, and it’s still confusing me.
threetonesun 2 hours ago||
It's made Grade B more widely available though, because now it's just a light or dark choice like brown sugar, whereas before Grade B seemed somehow inferior. Before it was easy to assume Grade-A would be the most maple-y.
phyzome 5 hours ago|||
Kind of sounds like you haven't had real maple syrup.
tetris11 28 minutes ago||
I have canadian cousins and they send me the real stuff every year. It's just what you prefer.

Some people like a Rolex watch they can flash at parties. Others are happy with a cheap imitation with a nice form that they can wear daily

diydsp 6 hours ago||||
>French cultural pessimism

Specifically Jean Baudrillard describes copies of copies with decreasing relavence and quality. But more sinisterly, the loss of knowing what is real, important, safe, efficacious.

His work builds extensively on Plato, Lucretius, and Deleuze's concept of the Simulacrum.

wincy 5 hours ago||
This is like how 95% of SUVs are basically just minivans with a slightly different body. You have to research to find one with a truck engine that can say, haul a travel trailer. Another one that comes to mind is shutters on windows. People like the look but they’re just planks of wood in the vast majority of cases now.
triceratops 2 hours ago|||
> People like the look [of shutters] but they’re just planks of wood in the vast majority of cases now.

I'm confused, what are real window shutters then?

Or do you mean the kind that are attached to the wall and don't actually close?

numbsafari 5 hours ago|||
.. and here I am wanting better minivan options that can pull a travel trailer.
doubled112 5 hours ago||
And here I am just wanting station wagons to come back, and be reasonably priced.

The towing numbers are always higher in Europe than US too, despite being the same cars (as far as I know).

rootusrootus 3 hours ago|||
> The towing numbers are always higher in Europe than US too, despite being the same cars (as far as I know).

Mostly due to differences in environment, AFAIK. Americans drive faster, and towing instability seems to increase with the square of the speed. Also, most travel trailers in the US wouldn't be car-towable anyway, because we have expectations on amenities and size that are predicated on using at least a half-ton pickup for the tow vehicle. Trailers with the compromises needed to be towed European-style aren't popular, so it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle.

virtualritz 5 hours ago||||
Same with truffle mayo or truffle-based products. [1]

People who grew up on the artificial flavor prefer it over the real one. I have quite a few in my circle of friends.

You go to an Italian restaurant and you get plain pasta, panned in butter or olive oil and then someone comes with a real truffle and grates it in front you of over your dish until you tell them to stop. You pay for that amount.

Unless you go to a restaurant with a great reputation or some Michelin star venue, that is the only way to be sure you're eating real truffles. The dish has no truffle-aroma itself and the truffle is grated while you watch.

Assuming ofc (and probably true for most people): your palate is not well acquainted to the taste of the real thing enough to tell it apart from the many fakes/substitutes.

[1] https://www.tasteatlas.com/truffle-industry-is-a-big-scam

ahartmetz 5 hours ago||
If the real thing doesn't taste like gasoline, I'd probably prefer the real thing. I find fake truffle disgustingly gasoline- or solvent-like.
vctrnk 4 hours ago||
Never thought of the fake variant as gasoline-like but it sure has that strange, very heavy 'chemical' aftertaste that lingers in your palate. Also never tried the real thing, I wonder if i'd like it or not.
hilariously 2 hours ago||
+1 - it tastes so obviously of petrochemicals that I throw the food out - truffle fries, truffle pasta - might as well pour mineral spirits on it for the same experience.
Eddy_Viscosity2 7 hours ago||||
I was fully triggered by the hollandiase bit. This is something I look for constantly when I travel for real eggs Benny. It's never real, even at higher end hotels. They just use better quality fake stuff. And it's so good when it's real.
wincy 5 hours ago||
My wife makes real Eggs Benedict for me once a year on my birthday. I went to a resort hotel and spit out their Eggs Benedict it tasted so bad compared to what I get at home. They comped my meal. I guess this explains why I’m constantly confused why Eggs Benedict doesn’t taste right. I’ve found one, maybe two restaurants with passable Eggs Benedict in my city.
Xmd5a 8 hours ago||||
> The original sauce is very cumbersome to make and almost no one makes it fresh.

No it's not.

bregma 7 hours ago|||
It's not at all difficult if you have gained the basic survival skill of cooking. I mean, take a couple egg yolks in a double boiler, add the juice of a lemon, whisk until it's thick then add butter. 10 minutes and you can use a bowl over the pot of boiling water you're poaching your eggs in if you don't have a double boiler for your camp stove in the wilderness.

But that's still more of a hassle than putting the carton of that yellow plastic liquid in the microwave for a minute and a half. People will prefer their slops and the farmer brings it right to you; what could possibly be a better life?

ajmurmann 5 hours ago|||
And that's ten minutes every time someone orders a dish with hollandaise because it really breaks when reheating as well. Given how much cost of labor is a factor it's easy to see why hardly any restaurant will serve real hollandaise. Perfect Baumol cost disease example. Maybe something like a Thermomix could solve the economic problem of hollandaise.
lstodd 5 hours ago|||
I short-circuited my microwave accidentally two years ago (don't power it up and then drop screwdrivers) and that was the best thing to happen to my meals.
picofarad 23 minutes ago||
Two microwaves tried to burn my house down so I said, fine, universe, I hear you.

I don't even have an oven anymore; three induction hobs, air fryer (instant pot with the fry lid), rice cooker, bread machine.

I have really bad luck with kitchen appliances these last 10 years!

BonerWiener 8 hours ago|||
Nothing kills a discussion like when someone just saying "I disagree" with zero explanation. They're not really contributing just cluttering up the comments. At least give a reason why.
devilbunny 7 hours ago|||
(Not the person you're replying to.)

The original sauce is, in fact, a pain to make. However, it's not the 17th century any more. You can, with an immersion blender (which is not a particularly obscure piece of kitchen hardware), make it very easily. There's a bit of a knack, but only a bit of one, and if the sauce breaks you can just restart the emulsion with a new egg.

https://www.seriouseats.com/foolproof-2-minute-hollandaise-r...

The same basic technique can be used for mayonnaise and is even harder to screw up.

corroclaro 6 hours ago||||
For the record: you basically take a stick blender, the container that came with it, crack an egg, pour over some lemon juice, then blend while pouring in hot butter (use the microwave!). Takes ca 2 minutes, including the 1 minute 30s of microwaving the butter.

Instant _real_ sauce hollandaise as the stick blender creates a vortex that emulsifies it. No need to hand whisk it over a bain-marie at careful temperatures.

LearnYouALisp 26 minutes ago||
Has anyone tried ultrasound (either probe or basin) for this mixing? I know it can be done for a finer substance
maxerickson 4 hours ago||||
The other post is also just an assertion.

Can you link to evidence that countering assertions with assertions kills discussions? (This is sarcasm)

Xmd5a 7 hours ago|||
Cant / currently cooking creme diplomate.
plastic-enjoyer 6 hours ago||
You are forgiven
Xmd5a 4 hours ago||
Thank you father

https://imgur.com/a/CKE0V37

https://anonpaste.pw/v/db571281-c2b0-489e-b121-29959add1947#...

    ## Final Structure
    
    **Sweet pastry**
    → **Almond cream**
    → **Homemade jostaberry jam**
    → **Small raspberries**
    → **Vanilla cream**
    → **Chantilly-lightened vanilla cream**
    → **Large fresh raspberries**
    → **Icing sugar**
That's a 2.5kg raspberry pie. About 120€ in a bakery.
westmeal 8 hours ago||||
I don't know the real sauce is incredible compared to the fake stuff. It really is a massive hassle though :/
eszed 4 hours ago|||
Try this:

https://www.seriouseats.com/foolproof-2-minute-hollandaise-r...

I used to make it on the stovetop - even learned how to rescue it when it broke - but I don't anymore. You can decide whether using a hand blender counts as "real" or not, but the ingredients are the same, and I can't tell the difference, only the technique is arguably "cheating".

gacgacgac 2 hours ago||||
I make eggs benedict probably once a month or two. It's really fairly simple with an immersion blender. Comes together in like a minute. Timing the poached eggs and the sandwich elements is a little tricky, but not materially more difficult than, eg, cinnamon rolls from scratch.
plastic-enjoyer 8 hours ago|||
I know! But a lot of people prefer the fake stuff, because they were raised on it or harbor nostalgic feelings for it. For them, it's the real deal.
api 6 hours ago|||
When it comes to these lines of thinking, and to romanticism which is closely related, I have a hard time not seeing some of it as disdain for the middle class and nostalgia for the stories classic aristocracy told about itself.

I’m American and grew up inundated with cultural disdain for the suburbs, tract housing, malls, all those things, and at some point I asked, well, what then? What’s better?

Sauce made slowly by hand is better. Carefully curated culture is better. Hand made, artisan, intentional.

Rare. Special. And if it’s rare and special few can have it, making it also expensive and aristocratic.

As soon as you try to give everyone that experience, you get chain stories. You get tract homes. You get mass culture. Because it’s a mass. It’s million, billions of people, and we are not as unique as we think we are. None of us are.

I’m not saying the whole critique is this. There’s another side to it that’s about exploitation and addiction and that one rings true to me. But I find that it’s hard to peel the two things apart.

It’s not exploitation to raise the standard of living of masses of people, and if you think it’s inherently tacky maybe you’re a neo-feudalist reactionary and don’t know it yet. There’s a reason that stuff took hold so easily among certain kinds of hipsters.

I see a lot of leftists where if you could get them to let go of one idea, namely equity and equality, you’d instantly have a “trad.” Most of their other opinions are already aligned.

plastic-enjoyer 6 hours ago||
I don’t see my post as making any judgement, let alone offering criticism. It’s simply my observation that many people prefer the artificial stuff to the original product.

But since you’ve brought this up, I’d argue that it’s not a question of elitism, but rather that 'the masses' simply isn’t given access to these products. What they get is an abstraction of the original, which merely imitates the flavour but abstracts anything else away. Take, for example, meat or vegetable stock, which is now a staple in every kitchen in the form of powder or stock cubes. If you take a look at the ingredients and nutritional values, they’re rather disappointing. The masses may get access to the taste, but not to the nutrients.

api 6 hours ago||
I didn’t mean to come off as criticizing you, just providing a balancing counterpoint on some of the ideas.

The question is: can you give billions of people the “authentic” version?

In some cases you can. In the US at least there’s boutique groceries and farmers markets that sell more authentic organic food that usually does have better nutritional value. But it costs more.

The artificial mass market imitation is cheaper because it is thermodynamically cheaper. It takes far less labor (the most costly input to almost all processes) and it substitutes things that can be bulk produced at a lower unit cost. Being less nutritious probably directly correlates since nutrition is chemical complexity is lower entropy, higher energy, harder to scale.

There’s a lot of rare “authentic” experiences that cannot be scaled. That means most people can’t have them, ever.

You can’t have both rarity / exclusivity and democratization / equality. One side has to give.

pluralmonad 5 hours ago||
This is exactly what the article touches on, the race to the bottom. It drags everyone's experience down. This appeal to scalability is part of the problem, IMO. Not every experience is or should be scalable. Some kids find blackberry bushes at grandma's instead of strawberries. Little is gained by strip mining human experience so the thinnest veneer can be "scaled".
brookst 4 hours ago|||
But what do you do about free will? If billions of people want maple syrup, do you say “no, no, we can’t scale the real thing and corn syrup is a poor substitute, so you can’t have even a simulacrum of the experience”?
api 5 hours ago||||
That means most people can never have it, which is why romanticism ends up pining for aristocracy.
eszed 4 hours ago||
I take your point, but the other argument against scaling in this way doesn't rely on sentiment: it's unsustainable. I actually hate that word, but the point is that current production methods create (unpriced) environmental externalities. We're draining aquifers, exhausting topsoil, pouring fertilizer into rivers, using too much petroleum - and then throwing a massive portion of what we produce away. (And that's just for food; similar arguments exist for fashion, and sometimes for buildings and infrastructure.) That argument gets effectively zero traction - despite, I think, being the better one - so some people who care more about that argue from sentiment instead, which (for the reasons you explain, and rightly object to) has better legs with the general public.
api 3 hours ago||
I look at this as a technical problem. We just aren't very good at this yet. We are, in fact, slowly getting better. Renewable energy was the largest category of new installed energy for the last few years at least, and that's a start. The question is whether we can get good at this fast enough to outrun ourselves.

My issue with at least some of green ideology is that it's viewed as a moral problem. We are sinning by asking for more than we deserve and, if you really scratch the surface, by trying to give too much to the unwashed hordes. Beneath the surface I think you find romanticism, and beneath that you find nostalgia for a fantasy world that never really existed. That fantasy world is the fantasy of the old aristocracy. It's the story they told themselves.

I think those kinds of greens are "trads" who don't know it yet. The only thing keeping them from going down that road is an attachment to the idea of equality and things like LGBTQ rights. If you give up those things, the rest aligns perfectly. If you want a world of rare authentic things enjoyed by cultured people and all of it to fit within present techno/ecological limits, you have to put the masses back in feudal serfdom and establish a rigid, religious, traditional system to hold everything in stasis that way. It would be sustainable.

But as I said a few levels up, there is another side of the critique that I think has more legs. That's the critique of engineered addiction and manipulation. Those are not mandatory effects of scale. They're engineered to maximize short term profits or for other purposes like political manipulation, which I guess is another kind of profit (power rather than money).

eszed 1 hour ago||
Good points. I expect you're familiar with the Abundance Agenda folks? They're mostly talking right now about energy and infrastructure, which I think is a correct choice, but there is a next step to take with consumer goods, so that we can end up with an abundance of quality and not more engineered addiction.
recursive-call 3 hours ago|||
okay but most kids don’t find any kind of bushes. do they just not get to eat fruit?
stymaar 9 hours ago|||
> Almost 100 years ago he foresaw how the cultural offerings of society get commodified and chopped into bite sized chunks for each individual to receive theirs. He did not forsee us taking it this far, nor the addictive nature of the consumption though.

Ray Bradbury did anticipate all of that in Farenheit 451, including the addictive nature of it.

I read Farenheit 451 in 2010, and I was shocked to see that he had anticipated Twitter, but his predictions didn't stop there and he also anticipated that the next step would be what is now Tik Tok.

thyselius 6 hours ago||
In The book, what happens after?
stymaar 5 hours ago|||
Books are forbidden, book readers are prosecuted and their collection is burned down by “firefighters”.
srcnkcl 6 hours ago|||
Torment nexus.
YinglingHeavy 4 hours ago|||
The taste of the masses will always be vulgar, by very definition of the word. Vulgar as in commonplace.
cassepipe 8 hours ago|||
As someone who has struggled with understanding Adorno for a long time, I found this recent review of a book about Frankfurt School a pleasant read : https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-the-dialectical...
cmrdporcupine 6 hours ago|||
You can read and enjoy Adorno in bits without swallowing a whole overarching theoretical foundation. As he also often wrote that way.

Minimia Moralia for example is a collection of more personal and essay form writings.

Also I absolutely love Negative Dialectics as a piece of theoretical writing but I am not convinced it fits into the standard "Frankfurt school" label. It's more about epistemology than it is about culture.

(He was, however, more than a bit of a snob. I wouldn't take his musings on culture at face value unless you truly believe -- like he did -- that jazz and other popular music is just intrinsically and objectively worse than Bach forever and always absolute truth. Ahem.)

cmrdporcupine 5 hours ago|||
From this (mostly fine) article you linked to: "Marx was a left-Hegelian, which meant he filed the serial numbers off God and called Him “communism”."

I mean, no. That's a complete misreading of Marx. (Though perhaps one that was convenient to Stalinists or Maoists to continue to let breathe...).

For one, it would only apply to Marx in his 20s. Grown up Marx substantially threw out most of the Hegelian stuff, seeing it as superstitious nonsense while he studied commodity prices in the British Museum's reading room.

Or at least -- in his own younger-self terms -- he "turned it on its head" by throwing out the Idealist aspects of the dialectic. Even a traipse through the Theses on Feuerbach shows him rejecting all the transcendent forces of history crap.

I'd argue by the time we get to Capital the dialectic and the Hegel stuff generally is barely present.

If he is speaking of dialectic, it's mostly as "here's a way to look at history as it has happened, let's go poke at the contradictions and see what's in there" not "here's a recipe for how history works and from this we can predict..."

And back to Adorno, this is actually precisely what he is getting at in Negative Dialectics. Reinterpreting the "dialectic" as a non-Platonic, non-Hegelian process of looking at contradictions in reality and history but without expecting any kind of unification or resolution to a more perfect form. Living with the negative and the unknowable. Because the alternative, in Adorno's mind, was the path to Auschwitz.

swed420 4 hours ago||
A misreading of Marx (intentional or otherwise) is precisely what I'd expect from Alexander.
cmrdporcupine 9 minutes ago||
Honestly, Marx's work is like "the Bible", nobody is really reading it honestly "from scratch". They are all coming in with an existing identity / framework / world view, and getting it to say what they want it to say.

Something about people pretending it was the official ideology of half the world tends to do that. The old man himself would have thrown up into his soup if he knew.

fssys 8 hours ago|||
every time someone coins a new term for these phenomena i think of how Adorno already explained it all. "enshittification" SHUT UP
clydethefrog 8 hours ago||
There was a major campaign the last decade from many pro-capital and libertarian thinkers to label Adorno and other philosophers as the root cause of many people grievances. Remember Peterson et all all warning about "Cultural marxism" and "postmodernism"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th...

I try not be against new terms like "enshittification" or "dopamine fracking" for this reason, the tech people at the levers that might be convinced to change course seem to be more open to substack and blogpost concepts (see SSC / rationalist popularity for all this new terminology that just describes old continental philosophical concepts) instead of having to read old European thinkers that use too much Marxist terminology.

Edit: case in point, literally users here are now linking to SSC essays explaining critical theory lol

topaz0 4 hours ago|||
Since I can't upvote @thrance's reply, I'll second it here: certainly complaints about postmodernism date to the 90s or earlier and fear of Marxism is as old as Marx (less sure about when "cultural Marxism" specifically became a scare-term of art)
tpm 8 hours ago||||
> There was a major campaign the last decade from many pro-capital and libertarian thinkers to label Adorno and other philosophers as the root cause of many people grievances.

I feel it's still ongoing, the reactionary elements are campaigning against anything circa modern (not modernist as in art but modern as organisation of society, so also anything that can be traced back to Enlightenment) and later, postmodern etc. They are actively destroying natural sciences too, which is a part of this effort. Feels like going back to feudalism.

thrance 8 hours ago|||
[dead]
eloisius 8 hours ago||
This is the essence of the Situationists’ Spectacle.
mlboss 6 minutes ago||
I know this article talks about digital media, but in general, that is what any technology does. It distances us from nature and makes things more convenient, but it also takes away the nuances involved.

Any concept that helps us categorize real things also takes away their individuality. Every tree is different, but the word “tree” takes away its uniqueness. A “tree” becomes something that provides humans with food, or something that can be used for firewood or paper.

nlanier 2 hours ago||
I've found that this engineered optimization has a more pernicious side effect: killing curiosity.

Lack of complexity stunts the desire to become curious - to give reasons to look closer, ask questions, compare experiences - and ultimately develop 'taste'.

When everything is optimized into its most obvious, frictionless, immediately-rewarding form, the sum of all experience becomes more 'pleasant' but harder to care about.

The author touches on something that's been grating at me (and is professionally relevant) for some time now, and I appreciate his effort to articulate it.

epistememe 6 minutes ago||

  What once motivated going deeper to satisfy the curiosity instinct is now satisfied by breadth. Quantity has a quality all its own. 
  "When everything is optimized into its most obvious, frictionless, immediately-rewarding form, the sum of all experience becomes more 'pleasant' but harder to care about." This is an insightful and important point. Humans place value on what requires effort and resources to achieve/acquire. The timeline has been condensed so that immediate rewards are required, or attention/effort is directed elsewhere. Any extended effort or depth requires frequent dopamine rewards. Those born well into the Internet age have a different disposition that is difficult for older generations to understand. In some ways, the difference is quite profound and not unlike that of a foreign culture.
webdoodle 44 minutes ago||
Interesting take. Do you think they are intentionally killing curiosity? If so, why?
rkuzsma 8 hours ago||
The strawberry example reminds me of the Instant Mashed Potatoes non-book review [0].

> Since World War II and the large-scale industrialization it fully unleashed, a core method driving ‘progress’ across many different fields of human endeavor has been to shred something real and reconstitute it into a faster, easier, less appealing IMPish substitute for what we used to make out of it. This is the parsimonious recipe for industry to fulfill our urges. We’ve got the food processor whirring, and absolutely everything is going in.

[0] https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-review-my-fathers-inst...

memcg 3 hours ago|
>In the interest of full fairness while writing this review, I purchased a plastic cup of my dad’s currently favored “Buttery Homestyle” Idahoan brand instant mashed potatoes for $1.99. The preparation was extraordinarily efficient; the aroma was decent; the taste was a reasonable facsimile; but the texture was all wrong - a smothering paste that coated my mouth and constrained my tongue like a straightjacket. 3/10 would not buy again.

I substitute warm heavy cream for half the water and add extra butter which gets me to a 6/10. Mix in some cabbage or kale and you have a quick Colcannon.

genewitch 6 minutes ago||
yeah some of the instant ones aren't half bad, especially if you're not just using them as mashed potatoes with gravy, but in a pinch i can throw together a reasonably hearty and savory shepherd's pie with instant, including the peaks. Heavy cream definitely helps, and get lots of air in, if possible.

obviously real potatoes taste better, but they haven't been dehydrated and reconstituted, destroying the cell structures. probably.

regexorcist 5 hours ago||
As someone under 40 who never had any social media, I cannot overstate the negative impact it's had on my peers and their behaviours. Worst thing to ever happen to society imo, I feel for the younger ones who grew up with it.
oa335 4 hours ago||
why doesnt hackernews count as social media?
bachmeier 2 hours ago|||
Whether or not it counts as social media, there is no algorithm targeting individuals as far as I know. Social media in the sense of HN is just the internet.
PowerElectronix 4 hours ago||||
It does, but as you really can't get money out of it in a reliable way by exploiting the user addictive behaviors, it doesn't have that effect on society.

It's just a cool place to visit now an then an check cool stuff out.

Aurornis 4 hours ago|||
Kind of interesting how many people don’t realize that the purpose of Hacker News was to be an advertisement for Y Combinator and their portfolio companies.

You don’t see it as much these days, but YC portfolio companies can post privileged threads on this site for job listings, which in practice double as ads for the company. You’re not allowed to comment on them.

I haven’t seen one for a while because I suspect every company is already inundated with 1000 applications for every job in this market, but this is what Hacker News was for.

regexorcist 4 hours ago|||
> people don’t realize

Y Combinator is right there in the URL. People know and don't care because it's a well run forum with interesting discussions, the privileged posts don't change that.

scubbo 1 hour ago||
> Y Combinator is right there in the URL

Most people aren't so slavishly devoted to capital that they have memorized the names of firms.

frakt0x90 4 hours ago||||
I think most people know this and are fine with it. YC owns the site and advertises their stuff on it sometimes. The site itself is not trying to milk you for every penny or trying to exploit you.
j_w 2 hours ago|||
Just live on /active and that stuff doesn't show up.
overgard 2 hours ago||||
Man, I wish. It used to be that, but I suspect now that there's a lot of astroturfing and probably bots.
nyantaro1 45 minutes ago||
I also notice that. I don't really know where else to go now
FrustratedMonky 4 hours ago|||
And, HN doesn't show your ranking, at least obviously, so it doesn't get the same gamification to try and maximize points.

But, it is social media. Just that they make a point to try and tone it down and keep it focused.

thatjoeoverthr 4 hours ago||||
We have social media-like systems going arguably Compuserve and the like, as well as games. There's a matter of "refinement", like how some older people describe the change of drugs over the decades. TikTok, Twitter and many of the games are just "too strong", and it matters. Nobody gets "addicted" to Mario 3 or IRC to the point it resembles alcoholism.
Aurornis 4 hours ago|||
> Nobody gets "addicted" to Mario 3 or IRC to the point it resembles alcoholism.

People definitely became internet junkies in the past. IRC was where you could find chronically online people before that term was popular.

The good old IRC quote databases were full of jokes about people not leaving their house and being online all the time. I remember being mocked in IRC rooms because I was out doing things instead of being on IRC all weekend. IRC was the place for the chronically online. This has always been a thing and it’s weird to see it dismissed so casually.

raldi 4 hours ago|||
People were definitely addicted to IRC.
copper4eva 4 hours ago||||
If you want to be pedantic, everything that has user interaction I think technically counts as social media. So just about any forum on the internet counts. But there's a pretty big difference in an anonymous forum, and something like twitter, facebook etc.
eggnet 4 hours ago||||
The lack of ads, and the algorithm for sorting the feed.

I think the spectrum runs from social media, to forum, to news feed… maybe other things. HN isn’t toxic.

stronglikedan 2 hours ago||||
because we're not putting our personal lives on display here. it's a news aggregator and discussion forum. sure, some folks post their personal projects, but it's framed as news to be discussed, not desperation for validation.
swed420 3 hours ago||||
> why doesnt hackernews count as social media?

It doesn't intentionally insert dark patterns into the platform.

It's not without flaws, of course, but it's 1+ orders of magnitude better than anything else.

pfortuny 4 hours ago||||
I guess it is mostly (by default):

a) real pseudonymity b) no photos/videos c) no infinite scroll d) no notifications e) very specific (mildly speaking) topic range f) very very good ranking and filtering algo ....

throw10920 4 hours ago||
(g) guidelines designed for curiosity and intellectual discussion that are enforced by the moderators. No "real" social media platform has anything similar. (so maybe it's more like a discussion board? LessWrong/old phpbb forums)
pfortuny 3 hours ago||
So true!
vaylian 4 hours ago|||
Why should it? Can I add you as a friend on HN? Can I become your follower? What are the social features that would make HN social media?
teolandon 2 hours ago||
Talking to people
Gigachad 5 hours ago||
I grew up with social media but at the start of the year I quit all of it and deleted my accounts. AI slop and obvious bots everywhere was the tipping point.

I should have done it long before, quitting has been so massively beneficial and I don’t feel I’m missing anything. All real social interaction online these days is in messaging apps. Social media is just a feed of endless slop designed to put you in a zombie like state of scrolling.

killerstorm 7 hours ago||
I'm not sure these things are about "big hit of dopamine". It's more about keeping user's attention on screen. And e.g. tiktok repeatedly shows minimally interesting videos, keeping viewer in expectation: how does this video end? would next the next video show?

So it's not about intensity, but quantity and repeatability.

MrBeast videos consists of many short segments each one having some small intrigue and/or delivering a tiny piece of interesting information.

The direct analogy with fracking is that these methods attract attention to things which normally don't warrant user's attention. I.e. normally we have defenses against getting attention stuck on one thing - it quickly becomes boring. But the industry managed to circumvent this by breaking these things into small pieces with tiny story-arcs in them.

shellkr 5 hours ago|
Yes! Exactly this... Attention... We become so dependent on always being distracted so that we can not function without it. I remember there where a similar discussion about TV back in the days.. but the level it is on now is unprecedented. I think society will adjust to this behavior as it has always done before. How damning or not is yet to be decided. It does not necessarily has to be a bad thing... but being dependent on something usually is.
leeoniya 4 hours ago||
so, Your Attention is All They Need?
kriro 5 hours ago||
There's a certain irony in coining the term on discord. Nice blog post but I'm used to reading these from people who hang out on IRC. Times are changing indeed.

My private version of anti-dopamine fracking is playing the phone game. Every social event I attend, I try to be the last person to look at their phone (well basically not look at it at all). It is fairly sad how easily this game is won in under 30 minutes in most casual settings.

Aurornis 5 hours ago||
> There's a certain irony in coining the term on discord

And the section in the middle where they start praising a YouTube video series that validated his anger and encourages us to go watch it.

You can sense the author’s struggles with self-regulation at the center of this article, but they have a blind spot for the content and apps that they really like. I think people in this situation would do better to start looking for positive outlets for their time like taking up an activity or exercise routine that gets them out of the house and away from screens. Trying to set arbitrary boundaries to avoid really bad content and apps is good, but if that time is just backfilled with other apps and videos then it’s only a very partial help.

igmn 4 hours ago||
I agree. I’m the author, and I think freeing up my time is the core of making myself feel better. And I think it could help others.

Because I don’t scroll nearly as much anymore, I have less things to immediately and effortlessly distract myself with. This inadvertently forces me into creativity, mindfulness or rekindling hobbies, which are healthier and more fulfilling activities than TikTok. It also promotes experimentation and trying new things. For example: I don’t write often, but having more time and boredom allows me to actually try instead of wishing I had. And now we’re having this conversation as a result.

YouTube and Discord are as much of a distraction as anything else, but their nature (or I guess how I use them) makes them feel more finite, and I can often “run out” of content to consume in a short amount of time. Previously, I couldn’t run out, and it was ruining my life and personality.

I can finally feel my life’s sort of global content feed becoming finite and manageable.

a3c9 1 hour ago||
> I can often “run out” of content to consume

As a reformed YouTube addict myself, that feeling of "running out" really is great. Tragically, that was its own exciting rush which has since faded. :)

hattmall 12 hours ago||
This has been happening in the real world for far longer. It's basically the experience of many modern cities, or even worse suburbs.

Starbucks / Chipotle / Orange Theory / Target / Generic Brewery / Lime Scooter / Waymo / Subscribe N Save

So much of modern life has been comodified to optimize for things that aren't necessarily what's inline with the users interests and certainly don't do anything for cultural robustness.

designerarvid 9 hours ago||
Guessing by your examples that you are American. Maybe you are aware, or perhaps not, that in Europe many view your culture as the one that has taken this to its extreme. Some envy it, some don’t.
hattmall 2 hours ago|||
Oh absolutely. It's also a specific segments of America. I hope Europe and elsewhere can resist but it really requires regulation because people in general are too easy to steer via advertising and convenience value propositions.

Definitely places in the US where you want find this commoditization of experience.

spwa4 9 hours ago||||
Where in Europe do you find large amounts of small stores? (and for real, not fake). Or is your point that Europe has a different supermarket chain per country? Malls have the same stores across countries ... but they differ, somewhat, if you move from one country to the next. And they're fake. Every company has 3-4 store brands these days so malls have 4-5 stores that look different, but aren't.

So ... what a difference that makes?

(I mean, I get that it does make a difference. Carrefour clearly takes some pride in their chocolate selection and aldi ... well it's an insult to any product to be sold at aldi. But culture in shopping in the EU? Where do you find that?)

VileSquirrel 8 hours ago|||
> Where in Europe do you find large amounts of small stores? (and for real, not fake)

I live in a small european town and all the followings are found less than 3 minutes away from my home: butcher, baker, shoes store, newspaper store, convenience store, barber. The town hosts a market once a week that sells more divers products, and many people do shop there. Some of the stores are owned and operated by descendants of those who owned them 60 years ago, all have their owner working in the store.

Maybe you won't consider that to be "large amounts of small stores" but that is somewhat the point: all my basic needs can be covered by a handful of small stores.

Granted that type of life and town has become less representative over time, but I heard the trend is now to go back to the countryside as people flee the big cities.

zbikowski 4 hours ago|||
I think that young USAmericans are deathly envious of a community like yours, myself included. I have nothing really novel to contribute here (in my view, North American urbanism, zoning regulation, the aforementioned globalism and, if you will allow me to briefly beat a dead horse, car-centric planning are to blame.)

I was playing Stardew Valley the other day and it hit me. For me, that type of close-knit community and simple living is merely fantasy, absolutely unattainable in real life.

hattmall 2 hours ago|||
There's absolutely places like that in the US. I have multiple of those establishments, non-chain, minutes away. No newspaper store IDK about that, there's also McDonalds, CVS, Subway, but the independent restaurants and business outnumber chains easily. It's just not in a major metropolitan area.
aboardRat4 4 hours ago|||
>For me, that type of close-knit community and simple living is merely fantasy, absolutely unattainable in real life.

The US had that too until about WW2. There were family-owned shops having history lasting since long before the Revolution.

pyrale 2 hours ago||||
To add to this, I live in the suburb of a large European city, and the same is true here, except owners change more often. It is also true in the city center.
mcosta 2 hours ago||||
What is the average salary in that town?
spwa4 5 hours ago|||
I also live in a small European town and there is a convenience store and a hairdresser. Oh and restaurants. That's it. Doesn't matter if you go to neighboring towns, they're the same. One of the neighboring towns has a supermarket, an Aldi.

I am also old enough to remember what it looked like in 1985.

regexorcist 2 hours ago||
Sounds like a very small town? In general most places are filled with shops you can walk to. In southern Europe in particular it's almost overwhelming the amount of options you have.
ben_w 7 hours ago||||
Berlin and surrounding towns and cities. Before the pandemic/brexit, also found them in the UK, but visits afterwards suggest catastrophic decline at least in the specific places I visited.

Just because we also have malls, doesn't mean we only have malls.

lukan 8 hours ago||||
"Where in Europe do you find large amounts of small stores?"

Im vibrant city centers of every bigger city I visited. The ugly malls are taking over much and online ordering is heavy pressure, but some are still very much alive.

eszed 3 hours ago||
Vibrant city centers in the US have small stores, too - even town centers in high-income areas. In Europe (especially, in my experience, France) they're common, because they've supported and subsidized them in all sorts of un-economically "optimized" ways. Americans prefer them, too, though - when they can afford them; they just haven't made having that kind of economy a political priority.
alchemism 2 hours ago||||
Athens Greece would blow your mind, friend.
plastic-enjoyer 9 hours ago||||
Depends on what city you live in, and what part of the city you live in.
esperent 7 hours ago||||
> Where in Europe do you find large amounts of small stores?

Literally every city and town.

donaldjbiden 5 hours ago|||
[dead]
tsss 9 hours ago|||
Don't act as if the cities in Europe look any different. I don't know what a "subscribe n save is" but I can find a Western Union, gambling hall and vape shop on every street corner.
plastic-enjoyer 9 hours ago||
> Don't act as if the cities in Europe look any different

They do look different, claiming otherwise is just American cope

bigblind 8 hours ago|||
I feel like they do and they don't at the same time. The buildings may look different, but city center rents driving out a lot of small local businesses, and leaving the same brands everywhere.
plastic-enjoyer 8 hours ago||
You are right, that the city centers are often heavily commodified to the point where they do not differ from other cities anymore. However, European cities are not just the city center, you have a lot of different districts where the commodification has not progressed to this degree as in the city centers. Case in point, you often do have small grocery stores in those districts, mostly owned by immigrants or they are some kind of organic food store.
eszed 3 hours ago|||
You're right, too, but also in the European chain stores - Carrefour and Spar, and the like - I see more quality produce and local cheese and regional products than I do in North American equivalents. They're sold right alongside the commodity, international-brand stuff, and usually is price-competitive. The best apples I ate on my last trip to Spain I bought in a motorway services; they looked like they'd been grown next door, and maybe had been.
triceratops 2 hours ago|||
American cities also have ethnic neighborhoods, immigrant-owned grocery stores, and organic food stores.
tsss 1 hour ago|||
I'm not American. I live in Europe and know very well how it is here.
PeterStuer 11 hours ago|||
I think a significant contributer to franchize style commoditized homogenization is modern anxiety. Millenials especially seem near exclusively drawn to the 'predictable' and curated 'peer approved' nature of recognizable 'safe' brand signals.
sph 11 hours ago|||
You are seeing the effect for the cause. Humans (life in general) are effort minimizer machines, it doesn’t mean that maximum optimization is the ideal environment for a human to thrive.

Any caveman would have loved to have to choose between favourite junk food franchises instead of risking his life chasing woolly mammoths not to starve.

vladms 10 hours ago|||
From what I see, there are many people that don't want to be "bored" more than the people that don't want to be "tired". Of course there are many that want to be neither (so we get social media that gives you "not bored" and "not tired"), but I don't think we can generalize for 100% for neither category.
throw4847285 4 hours ago|||
We’re tired and bored. We're tired and bored. We're tired and bored. We're tired and bored.[0]

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBngZh8H2FU

sph 9 hours ago|||
It helps to view it under a neurological perspective.

Not being bored = likely scrolling social media = dopamine release = the exact mechanism that reinforces patterns and behaviours in our brain, which under some conditions can reach stages of compulsion. I loath to blame the individual when these systems are designed to exploit flaws in human behaviour.

I recently read a self-help book by B.J. Fogg, a professor at Stanford Behavior Design Lab (formerly known as the Persuasive Technology Lab) that was boasting how he mentored the Instagram founders and helped them optimize their app for maximum engagement. The book itself was pretty good, but I couldn't help but think I'm reading the words of a complete sociopath that has indirectly caused untold psychological damage, and was pretty proud about it.

Is it Jane Doe's fault that she's now hopelessly addicted to Instagram?

goodpoint 9 hours ago||||
By this logic travel and tourism would not exist.
leonidasrup 8 hours ago|||
"Travel outside a person's local area for leisure was largely confined to wealthy classes, who at times travelled to distant parts of the world, to see great buildings and works of art, learn new languages, experience new cultures, enjoy pristine nature and to taste different cuisines."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism

vincnetas 9 hours ago|||
well, we are also a bit of pleasure machines also. And most of vacations are relaxing. So again optimisation.
keybored 10 hours ago||||
It was at this supposed peak of Dopamine Fracking that intellectual conversation found a renaissance. Anthropology in particular reached its pinnacle in a unifying theory of everything: it’s just human nature.
ErroneousBosh 10 hours ago|||
> Humans (life in general) are effort minimizer machines, it doesn’t mean that maximum optimization is the ideal environment for a human to thrive.

My 5-and-a-half-year-old son would recommend this book to you:

https://www.booksfortopics.com/book/the-couch-potato/

It covers this quite succinctly.

veunes 9 hours ago||||
When housing, healthcare, work, social life all feel unstable, the predictable option starts looking less like boring conformity and more like one less decision that can go wrong
sleepycat801 9 hours ago||||
It's more a side effect of decision fatigue. Millennials are at a stage of life where they face a very high cognitive burden. They're not thinking deeply about it. which is great for advertisers.
zuzululu 11 hours ago||||
Perhaps but I also think this is just personal preferences across age groups.

For instance contrarians who avoid those attributes

basisword 6 hours ago||||
I don't think that's a millennial thing. If you think back to the whole 'hipster' era, yes peer approval was a big part of it but so was local/artisan/unique stuff. Franchises were the things that were completely avoided. That predictability is much more of a modern requirement.
raverbashing 10 hours ago|||
Not sure it's a millenial thing, but yes

And to be honest choice fatigue also plays a part.

(Also millenials seem to sell some places as "gritty and authentic" when in reality a lot of them just suck)

I'm all for trying new things, but in the end you realize that a lot of those are just not for you and you go for the bland and tested thing

zimpenfish 9 hours ago||
For me (considerably older than millenials) it's not choice fatigue or "default to bland and tested", it's "if I'm paying a small fortune for coffee / food[0], I do not want a crappy serving just because the barista/cook stubbed their toe / broke up / got bad news / etc. this morning and they're wildly off their game."

Starbucks, McDonalds, Papa Johns, etc. do not make "great" refreshments but they make them of a consistently sufficient level of quality that you can be sure you're not wasting your small fortune when you buy from them wherever you are.

[0] As, sadly, we are all forced to these days.

raverbashing 8 hours ago||
Agree

But then, once I got to certain McD locations, and got a (very) disappointing experience, then it's hard to come back to the brand.

(it might have changed, I think this was over 10 yrs ago) but still

Gigachad 6 hours ago||
At least in Australia pretty much all the chain places like McDonalds/subway etc suck so bad it’s incredible they are still in business. They aren’t even winning on price.
canpan 9 hours ago|||
All cities have the exact same shopping street somewhere.

Tokyo (Ginza), NYC (5th), Paris, London, Berlin, Sao Paulo..: Starbucks, Gucci, Addidas, Louis Vuitton, Levis, Ferragamo, Apple Store, a little further from there a McDonald's..

dormento 4 hours ago|||
You know, I always felt it but struggled to describe. This is exactly how it feels. Commoditization is inevitable, but the loss of identity that comes with leaves the impression that every city is one of those old-west movie prop ghost towns.
Towaway69 7 hours ago||||
The world is becoming such that anywhere is like everywhere and everywhere is like anywhere.

At least major western cities are turning into the same-same but different tourists.

4ggr0 9 hours ago||||
> a little further from there a McDonald's

in my experience there's like 3 of them on every one of these big streets, puzzling how many McD's exist.

mcosta 2 hours ago||||
And these streets are always full
donaldjbiden 5 hours ago|||
[dead]
zuzululu 11 hours ago|||
> Starbucks / Chipotle / Orange Theory / Target / Generic Brewery / Lime Scooter / Waymo / Subscribe N Save

I've never been to any one of these except Starbucks but only like a six times and Chitpole ONCE.

I've also never been to Taco Bell. McDonalds I've been to thirty times.

I don't think I'm alone? These places don't have that exaggerated pull that is often discussed in alarmist articles.

I guess I just don't eat outside at all so I could be the minority.

coldtea 9 hours ago|||
>I don't think I'm alone?

Alone or not, you're hardly representative. They are huge corporate behemoths because 100s of millions go there.

And if you personally do avoid those, you likely still don't avoid 50 others like them. Like, you don't go to those, but shop at Amazon. Or ride Uber. etc

ErroneousBosh 10 hours ago|||
I lived in Glasgow for 20-odd years, where you can get food from any region of any country in the world made by people from that region of that country, right there, fresh, right in front of you.

I've also eaten Taco Bell.

You're not missing much. It is much as you'd expect, a stepped-on Americanised parody of Mexican food. Even in the small north-eastern city of 150,000 people I live near now there are at least three places better than it for Mexican food.

Starbucks is absolutely rank. I suspect all the syrups and shit people pump in is just there because they a) don't actually like coffee and want some sugary milkshake, and b) don't know what coffee tastes like so are okay with the stale over-roasted to the point of just being burnt lukewarm rubbish that Starbucks sells.

The rest of those don't really exist in the UK (yet!). I don't know if "Generic Brewery" is a real place or just a term for "oh hey you have to check <this place>" out, but if it's the latter then that would be Brewdog. Okay but not great beer, horrible horrible people.

I used to work at a small workshop in the south side of Glasgow where I'd go out and get a curry for lunch most days. The building looked semi-derelict but the shop itself was clean enough. Stainless counter, stainless kitchen units behind where two big Pakistani guys and their tiny grandmother who *everyone* deferred to cooked up curry. Cracked lino, scuffed formica tables.

You went in, you bought curry and a can of Coke. What kind of curry? Whatever they'd made that day. There was one, or maybe two if they also had a veg-only one on. It was whatever Naniamma had told them to make that day. Your menu choice was buy the curry or don't. Doesn't matter either way. Four quid please, want a fork?

It was always superb, and 20 years later I can still taste it just thinking about it. This is the kind of place you could eat.

zimpenfish 9 hours ago||
> The rest of those don't really exist in the UK (yet!).

Chipotle and Lime scooters do exist in the UK (and have for a while.) Waymo (I'm assuming the driverless taxis here) are just starting to appear in London. Apparently there's an Orange Theory Fitness in Derby (which has the same logo as the US one and therefore I'm assuming it's the same company.)

(Amazon and some smaller stores have been doing "subscribe and save" for years. But I'm not sure if that's the same thing?)

> [curry shop]

There was a great Thai place on one of the North Acton industrial estates back in ~2010 - tiny place, scuffed formica tables, terrifying grandmother taking your order, similarly small menu. Still the best Pad Thai I've had.

ErroneousBosh 6 hours ago||
> Still the best Pad Thai I've had.

You know you've found the right spot when you're the only white guy in a hundred metre radius of the place.

Small north-east of Scotland town, county cricket match at the cricket club between predominantly Indian and Pakistani teams. Food trucks came up from Leeds to do the catering. Every time I went up to one the guy behind the counter would look at me with wide eyes and say in a concerned tone of voice "You know what's in this, right? You know what you're eating?"

Dude, hit me with the desi shit, keep it coming. Yes of course I know what it is, it's not like I've never had mutton liver before. Here's 20 quid, package some up for me to stick in the freezer.

iceman28 11 hours ago|||
I don’t know if I’d club fast food restaurants into the dopamine factory category. I see it as more of a necessity as I don’t think I can go hunt or gather food during my lunch break at the office.
nicoburns 8 hours ago|||
I used to work near a food market where there were dozens of independent good stalls that were setup to serve working people lunches. The food was still fast, but a lot healthier, and you could go to one place and have a wide choice of options.
mckn1ght 11 hours ago||||
There’s a lot of possibility in between hunting and eating fast food. Buy some healthy food at the grocery store and pack a lunch to bring with you.
sleepycat801 8 hours ago|||
There is a formulation, a sugar/fat/salt ratio that the majority of people will find satisfying. Fast food tends to optimise this way. It's why, for example McDonalds burger buns are quite sweet.

But I don't know whether dopamine is the pathway responsible.

praptak 11 hours ago|||
This is alienation as described by Marx. If you optimize a thing, at some point it becomes separated from its nature.
veunes 9 hours ago|||
Yeah, I think cities are probably the clearest physical-world version of this
underdeserver 10 hours ago|||
Eh, I don't use Lime Scooters or Waymo for the dopamine, I use them to get to where I need to go.
JohnBooty 5 hours ago|||
Yes. I think convenience/utility explains a lot of these “depressingly homogenized experiences” far more than dopamine-seeking.

My life is very, very full. I do not have enough hours in the day, or years in my life, to fulfill all of my obligations and chase all of my dreams and interests. Not even close.

So I buy a lot of clothes from Old Navy, because they offer tall sizes that I need (surprisingly rare) and I honestly just have other things to do with my time. I’m aware there’s a whole world of interesting fashion out there, I just have 100 other things I want/need to spend my time on.

It’s the same with food, a lot of the time. Sometimes I just need a known quantity.

The restaurant chains know this, too. Sure… the commercials are all about satisfying your dopamine needs. But the way they actually run their operations is all about enforcing consistency. A Big Mac is supposed to taste the same everywhere. If you are a McDonalds franchisee, you can pick and choose which McDonalds products and promotions you sell (you can operate without selling french fries, if you’re crazy enough) but you absolutely cannot customize the ones you do sell.

(Yes, there are regional differences between McDonalds in different regions. Even within the US, there are some small differences due to regional suppliers and ingredient price/availability etc. However, these are very small differences and trust me, they really are laser-focused on consistency.)

ncruces 9 hours ago|||
Also I'm not sure either is "bad for society" in the way that's implied.

Rentable scooters/bikes being dumped everywhere by idiots is an issue, but parked in city approved places they're a boon.

They can make transit incredibly more useful for thousands of people in slightly less dense places.

The nearest subway to me is 2km away. It's much nicer to be able to rent a scooter for 5min than having to take it with me for the whole ride, or have it locked to a pole with 100s others.

As for Waymo I dunno if a vehicle the size of a car just driverless is the answer to mobility issues, but anything that reduces the number of moving and parked cars in cities is a win in my book.

epolanski 10 hours ago|||
On the contrary I think they converge for what's inline with the average user, a sort of neutral and familiar "taste" of everything from operations to design.
te_chris 10 hours ago||
To nit pick: Micromobility is the opposite of this.
raincole 10 hours ago|
> The Strawberry Example

Is this really the best example the author could come up with? If you want fresh strawberries, you can just go to a supermarket and buy them. In many places you can get a few pounds per for less than the money you earn in one hour. It's pretty much a heaven compared to pre-industrial days.

But I guess the analogy of fracking is pretty spot on, just in a way the author didn't realize -- the cons are often exaggerated.

brikym 9 hours ago||
> If you want fresh strawberries, you can just go to a supermarket and buy them

Whut? It's a perfectly relatable example. Commercial fruit genetics are selected for shipping and shelf life. Nutrients and taste come way down the list of priorities. I've noticed the strawberries in my supermarket have a more consistent quality every year. Consistently awful. It seems like one company have taken over the market and the berries are hard and bland. But they look nice. As each layer of the chain consolidates it forces adjacent layers to consolidate and you end up with sameness. The small strawberry companies probably went bust because the big supermarkets pushed hard. Now I have to buy my strawberries from a roadside farmer and they're great.

rapnie 8 hours ago|||
In the Netherlands strawberries in the supermarket have generally good quality, and a season too, though you can buy them year-round. But there's only one type of strawberry, the red sweet ones.

A recent dopamine fracking example in the supermarket is beer culture. Couple years ago in NL small breweries were popping up everywhere and making delicious specialty varieties, or reviving long lost beers from old recipes. Also small shops emerged, collecting special beers from around the world. This did not go unnoticed at the supermarket, and the number of brands they offered exploded. Rows upon rows of the most fancy designer cans to attract your attention, highly priced but convenient. It killed off a large part of this trend. "Hey, I can just buy this in the supermarket".

raincole 4 hours ago||||
First of all it's not what the article says. It doesn't mention heirloom harvest at all.

Second, after trying heirloom tomatoes myself, I stopped buying the claim that commercial cultivars are that bad.

christina97 5 hours ago||||
Right but that’s not what the article argues. The article argues that strawberries have been destroyed and now you only get the synthetic flavor and no grandma nostalgia.
almogo 8 hours ago|||
If the corporate berries are really so bad, the invisible hand will push the company in the direction of society's aggregate wallet vote. Sounds like most people are fine with them. Outside of truly autocratic systems, sounds like these berries are WAI.
chownie 5 hours ago||
Other possibilities:

* The people are not fine with bad strawberries but have no other choices available

* The people are not fine with bad strawberries but can't afford better choices

* The people are not fine with bad strawberries but they don't know good strawberries

* The people are not fine with bad strawberries but they're cheap enough to ship and sell that there's no economic case for good strawberries, so no one close enough to buy from will sell good strawberries to them

"The market seems fine with it" is kind of a lazy thought terminating cliche answer. What if the invisible hand of the market is pushing strawberry producers towards the outcome "society no longer values this enough to buy it" in which case the aggregate wallet vote will be zero?

JohnBooty 5 hours ago||

    The people are not fine with bad strawberries but they don't know good strawberries
You most definitely get this phenomenon with tomatoes. There’s little demand for actually good tomatoes, because most people don’t even know what a good tomato tastes like at this point.

This applies to countless things, but tomatoes are a prime example because they deteriorate so quickly once picked relative to other fruits I guess. So they have completely bred the flavor out of them in a quest to achieve something that looks good on a supermarket shelf.

chownie 3 hours ago|||
This is a phenomenal example I hadn't even considered, because I have been affected by this kind of "invisible hand of the market" negative quality spiral.

The older generation here remember good tomatoes, so they continue to buy bad tomatoes but will complain every time they eat them about the quality. I get told a lot about heirloom varieties and how good they are in comparison.

I grew up with modern tomatoes. I've never tried an heirloom so I can't compare, but I don't recall ever eating a good tomato, so I just don't buy them. The market has moved itself into a position that shrinks its own demographic.

senordevnyc 1 hour ago|||
I see people constantly make this argument, and honestly I think it’s BS. I grew up eating tomatoes from my grandparents garden, and I’ve lived and traveled all over the world. I’ve grown tomatoes, bought them from roadside farmer stands, bought them at grocery stores, and had them in everything from hole in the wall restaurants in developing countries to Michelin three star restaurants on multiple different continents.

Today’s grocery tomatoes are fine. And my grocery stores generally have 5-10 varieties too.

Yes, you can get better ones, but not to where it’s some religious experience that will forever ruin grocery store tomatoes.

On top of that, most people really don’t care that much, not because they don’t know any better, but because the cost and convenience factor trumps the slight subjective increase in quality. I doubt most people could even tell the difference between two tomatoes of the same type and ripeness if one came from the grocery store and the other from a backyard garden.

veunes 9 hours ago|||
I don't think the point of the strawberry example is that industrialization failed to make strawberries cheaper or more available. It obviously did the opposite in many places. The point is more about what gets selected for when the whole system optimizes for scale, consistency, shelf life, lowest acceptable cost
layer8 10 hours ago|||
Supermarket strawberries are often bad with not a lot of taste, and little variety, which is a result of their commodification.
Gigachad 4 hours ago|||
I’ve had home grown strawberries and they are certainly sweeter, but they are smaller. And I can’t say being sweeter is actually better.

If I was cutting up strawberries to put in a yogurt, I think I’d actually rather commercially produced large but less sweet strawberries.

Traubenfuchs 9 hours ago|||
Slightly strawberry flavored fiber sponges.
hart_russell 1 hour ago|||
I can tell you haven’t eaten a home grown strawberry before, because they’re not comparable.
Schlagbohrer 10 hours ago|||
They also grow extremely well in many climates across the northern US and are good at self-perpetuation. They're a fantastic balcony plant since their crawlers will hang down and offer fruit to a downstairs neighbor.
SirHumphrey 8 hours ago|||
Woodland strawberries grow even better somehow. We used to have them planted at the garden, then a few years ago we removed them and planted something else and this year I was surprised to find that they somehow survived and moved a few meters away from where they originally were.

They also taste better in my opinion.

zigman1 9 hours ago|||
What if you are not from the northern US?
swiftcoder 9 hours ago||
They grow fine in pretty much all of Europe, and most of South America - you may need to find a mountain to grow them on if very close to the equator. I imagine most of the rest of the world fair similarly.
john-h-k 5 hours ago|||
Yeah it’s a weird example. Perfectly possible real strawberries with all their complexity extract more dopamine!
zeafoamrun 10 hours ago|||
I was hoping for some examples of dopamine fracking of online communities as they said but was also disappointed.
JohnBooty 5 hours ago|||
I have a friend who works in the flavor and fragrance industry and one of the things strawberry fragrance is used for is… (drum roll) actual strawberries.

Yep, a light spritz of strawberry scent on actual fucking strawberries apparently makes them more appealing.

paganel 8 hours ago||
> If you want fresh strawberries, you can just go to a supermarket and buy them.

And they all taste watery, i.e. almost no taste at all, all this as a result of the industrialisation of strawberry farming. Which means that it was a good enough example for me.

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