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Posted by doener 3 hours ago

The European Social Stack(european.social)
89 points | 76 comments
jstummbillig 2 hours ago|
Here is an idea for a EU product: Build something that is great, and make it so good, that everyone, including US citizens, will want to use it.

Your ethics can still be great, but don't make me feel like your product won't be. If you have to market "Europe" or privacy it probably won't be.

bluegatty 27 minutes ago||
Totally valid point - but there are a lot of other strategic consideration.

Especially with 'Social' there are network externalizations like 'critical mass' - that actually compounds across a lot of things.

No European country given size and language is going to be able to create something that resonates as well as the American variation beyond the critical mass needed, at least naturally.

If 'French Facebook' started at one of the 'Grande Ecoles' it would have grown much more slowly, and maybe never moved out of being French centric and therefore not gone beyond borders.

Without the 'momentum' that doesn't attract investors, doesn't make employees want to work 'late nights for the big IPO payoff' etc..

And there are so many other related conventions, such as capitol markets, public markets, so many issues.

So - in order to overcome those limitations there may have to be a lot of strategic thinking and manoeuvring.

Given that Europe took 4 years to adjust to a nation literally invading it ... well ... I wouldn't hold my breath.

There are some winning opportunities: government procurement is powerful but Euros are afraid to negotiate hard with MS Goog etc..

There's a lot of money involved, forcing issues on privacy is entirely possible.

Same for local content, some degree of decentralization.

Requiring government actors to use 'Euro Mastadon' or whatever - it means school, students, parents come abard and then you have 'critical mass'.

Requiring 'open doc format' means you can break the MS Office monopoly.

Requiring 'Linux First' on every IT procurement decision - or even 'Open Soruce First' so local city council must give an excuse for why they are not using 'Approved Euro-Linux Variations' etc..

Lots of things.

keiferski 1 hour ago|||
Yeah, basically no successful American social media company advertises itself as being American. And its users do not think of it as "an American company," they just think of it as its own thing.
benrutter 43 minutes ago||
That might be true for social media, but there are 100s of American brands that make a large point of being thought of as an "American company" or "American made" goods.
csomar 6 minutes ago|||
I think that's when selling inside America but I don't remember seeing any american company proudly advertising its product as "American". I'd wager that today they want to hide that fact.
rndm77be9f 23 minutes ago|||
Does the average non-HN type in Europe hold comparable pan-European or even plain National Pride? I think here of the German national relationship with their own flag and feel skeptical of a comparison here.
mawadev 1 hour ago|||
The problem is impressumspflicht, you have to add your full contact address plus name to a website you host, inviting all sorts of trolls on the internet to ruin your life. No thanks.
aquariusDue 1 hour ago|||
Same problem with the Play Store/Console if you're registering as an individual instead of a company to publish an app.
redrove 1 hour ago||||
No it’s not.

You’re generalizing, DACH != the entire EU.

drnick1 1 hour ago|||
You can register domain names anonymously. Sure, you will be asked for contact details (WHOIS), but no one verifies them.
oaiey 34 minutes ago||
You can be suite in some European countries if you have a web page without an impressum and latest your domain registration will have your credit card to track you. Obviously, not all cases can be traced back.
tough 12 minutes ago||
https://njal.la/ or other providers will take your crypto too
dgellow 1 hour ago|||
That's definitely the main issue. We will end up with a really neat technical stack, a few products built on it for their 100 users each, and it will be forgotten in a few years...
rayiner 1 hour ago|||
Is there room for European companies to be the “Hermes of the Internet?” The American web is ad-optimized slop for the masses. Can the europeans provide higher quality experiences for more discerning buyers?

I’m thinking about Tik Tok. When it was Chinese, my feed was stuff I actually wanted to watch. A lot of it was Chinese propaganda, but it was stuff that was pleasant, like people cooking in Chinese villages. Now it’s just rage bait and engagement farming.

hiAndrewQuinn 1 hour ago||
Depending on how hardcore enforcement of the upcoming Cybersecurity Resilience Act is, that might(?) push EU products very slightly towards this luxury pricing power on the margin.

But on the whole I think you're dreaming, Ray. I can't imagine a single case of a successful luxury software product. (Apple is premium mediocre at best, doesn't count.)

rayiner 1 hour ago||
You’re probably right i’m just thinking out loud. It is interesting that software has resisted quality-based segmentation, something that exists in almost every other type of product.
davedigerati 17 minutes ago||
very interesting thought experiment here. I wonder how much it would take in a monthly subscription to offset the money they make in ads? picturing an Instagram without drivel and the crap and the manipulative behavior, that I would pay for simply to escape for 15 minutes. Curate the good content, heck create AI content I don't care I'm there to just mentally check out for a bit. Time lock it based on my prefs so that it respects me as a human being, doesn't try to feed off of me as a data source and I'll pay for that. I agree with you why is no one doing this? I can hear an argument about economies of scale, that it's just not worth the hassle, big guys too entrenched, but isn't that what we're all here to do... create new ways to disrupt?!?
oaiey 33 minutes ago|||
The key part of European projects is not their quality or greatness. They do not think big.
warumdarum 1 hour ago|||
Have you tried wire card? Its really good! Best payment system i ever used! Bought my villa in moscow with it...
moffkalast 1 hour ago|||
Doesn't work. As soon as something great appears, US VCs immediately buy it and move it to the bay area. A fair few of the products you think are US grown probably aren't. If not, a competitor appears that is less constrained by regulations and can move faster, taking over most of the market instead.
wbl 1 hour ago|||
US companies obey EU law when working in the EU. And there is a reason VC does not exist in Europe namely capital markets being divided.
vidarh 30 minutes ago||
Having spent years working for a VC and having raised rounds from VC's in Europe multiple times over the last 26 years, that it doesn't exist is news to me.
vovavili 17 minutes ago||
I am not aware of anything on the level of YCombinator or Sequoia Capital over here in Europe.
carlosjobim 10 minutes ago||||
You're not forced to sell, nobody is.
wilg 49 minutes ago|||
They don't have to sell?
deadbabe 1 hour ago|||
How about wines, cheeses, olive oils
dotcoma 51 minutes ago|||
Or fast trains you can only dream of in the US, or Airbus that is kicking Boeing’s ass…
wilg 49 minutes ago|||
America has world-class wines, cheeses, and olive oils.
ftmootnomoat 1 hour ago||
[flagged]
kingofmen 1 hour ago||
Indeed they do. And as a result they have rather more of it than European busybodies. :)
ftmootnomoat 1 hour ago||
Good, stay there.
1123581321 1 hour ago||
Stay where? Successful and helpful?
throwaway13337 2 hours ago||
Engagement metrics fed into recommendations algorithms are the paperclip maximizers that feed humanity's collective poison.

Europe should do the one thing it knows how to do: regulate. For once, it is the answer. Do it only there. The rest of the dominos will fall.

Making a european branded humanity poisoner is not the answer.

Specifically, regulating against silent signals like watch time and comment count. Upvotes/likes can serve a purpose and would not cause the situation we're in now.

We need to get specific about the real issue.

Radle 49 minutes ago||
We europeans can do more than regulate, your statement is just plain offensive.

You would now that if you ever went to a proper school. Those unfortunately are not widely available on your side of the pond.

wilg 48 minutes ago|||
https://www.statista.com/chart/30934/world-best-universities...
Radle 41 minutes ago||
Yes, but us universities aren’t financially accessible to most people and access depends more on connections and families than merit.

But your link also is only relevant to the university system.

It doesn’t change the fact that the non university part of education is severely financially crippled in major areas of the country in order to hinder black people from getting proper education.

Combined with a burnout introducing system of standardized tests the us educational system is truly world leading. At demonstrating how NOT to do education.

gf263 1 hour ago|||
I want to see the ability to opt out of algorithmic feeds regulated. Allow the people to poison themselves, but allow people to opt out
stephen_cagle 1 hour ago||
Do you mean regulating "watch time and comment count" at the presentation (to the client) or the server (business/analytics) level? If the later, how would you even enforce that?
throwaway13337 1 hour ago||
Like all good regulation, it would only kick in after a company has a large reach. So as to not snuff out startups and cause regulatory capture problems that are already so common.

Telling big companies to be transparent about their suggestion algorithms would not be hard. I think governments already do this? wasn't that a tiktok thing in the US? Anyway, it's well within government's reach.

Telling companies to only use signals that people consciously give seems like a no-brainer.

Well, I mean, if you believe that a goal of civilization is to respect the free will of individuals up until the point that that free will becomes a problem for other people.

The alternative is something less than respectful of human dignity.

stephen_cagle 1 hour ago|||
I'm only partially convinced. I just can't see how you could really know if a company is using a hidden metric (or some sort of proxy for that metric so that they are not technically in violation) for figuring out what to promote. Short of having constants audits, how would you ever really know?

But my skepticism may be unfounded. Do you have examples of companies that are currently working with regulators to allow full auditing of their content promotion policies? Are they actually auditing these partnerships or are they simply accepting promises from the companies?

sneak 1 hour ago|||
Laws that don’t apply to all people equally are unjust laws.

Penalizing the successful is also inherently rewarding the unsuccessful. You can’t do one without the other.

roughly 38 minutes ago||
They apply equally to all people who run a company of a particular size with a particular user count.
9dev 2 hours ago||
I'm all in favour of the EU finally emancipating itself from American tech companies, but trying to recreate Social Media, just in a European way, is the worst possible way to go.

We need less Social Media, not an inferior clone of TikTok or Instagram. Gaia-X would have been a nifty project, if it weren't a committee designing a framework for designing committee design frameworks by committee. We seem to make this mistake way too often. Don't plan to build Neuschwanstein—start to build a humble wooden cabin, and expand from there.

embedding-shape 2 hours ago||
Making people less addicted to social media, or creating other versions of social media that are less harmful, might be the "harm reduction" discussion/tradeoff of our modern times, but they're very different goals and ambitions. Sure, I agree, people shouldn't spend hours mindlessly scrolling through TikTok/Instagram/Whatever, but most likely they will, regardless of what we do. So, why not come up with some alternative that kind of gives them that experience, but not as addicting and with maybe more user choice, like Bluesky letting people chose their own recommendation algos they like?
TulliusCicero 1 hour ago|||
I think there's space for less crappy social media.

The early days of Facebook, where I actually saw friends and family posting their thoughts, that was great! It wasn't dominated by people resharing political screeds or random videos from groups I've never even heard of.

9dev 1 hour ago||
I'm pretty sure Pandora's box has already been opened. The youth spending hours on TikTok every day is not going to go back to early days of Facebook on their own.
mawadev 1 hour ago||
Any software engineering done in germany is so bureaucratic. You cannot start small, you have to create the EierlegendeWollmilchSau that handles all edge cases, all security constraints and privacy concerns, use the latest architecture buzzwords and needs to be meticulously documented... Most projects turn into Stuttgart 21 within a year
storus 9 minutes ago||
"Europe has a strong ecosystem of social companies and a deep well of expertise in designing and operating social protocols." LOL

When you start writing something, pick something more believable. It just invalidates anything you write thereafter.

bluegatty 35 minutes ago||
This thesis is undermined by the reality of operational an implementation concerns.

A 'wish list' is not hugely important to the operational capability of 'doing the thing'.

It's definitely a 'nice to have' and a 'starting point' from a certain angle, but it's a nominal thing really.

Thinking about critical masses, requiring established social networks to have open APIs and local content etc., definitely some regulations around local hosting and even use aka 'gov entities must use European based entities' for certain things, which helps build critical mass.

Etc.

Also - as someone commented 'doing the things' is often 75% of the reality of this, strategic considerations make up the smaller part even if they are critical.

clickety_clack 16 minutes ago||
This looks so complicated. There needs to be like 2 obvious buttons to press to get anyone to do any of this.
dzink 2 hours ago||
Keep the Social, ditch the media.
jonstaab 44 minutes ago||
Time to coin a new term, I think: "openwashing".

Europe is adopting open source and open protocols, not to promote individual sovereignty, but explicitly to protect European sovereignty from foreign influence. This is not what these technologies were built for; "promoting democracy" does not protect the rights of individuals.

The technology listed is mostly federated, not radically open (like, for example, nostr). In particular, ATProto has provided the EU with the perfect opportunity to signal openness while simultaneously standing up a new walled garden in which dystopian "moderation policies" will be the norm.

Barrin92 3 minutes ago|
>not to promote individual sovereignty, but explicitly to protect European sovereignty from foreign influence

good, what's wrong with that? Europe isn't a continent for Ayn Rand reading crypto bros obsessed with their individual sovereignty, collective responsibility has always been the basis of our social contract.

We're not a continent for internet libertarians, if that's what you're going for you might want move to some Peter Thiel VC funded micro-nation somewhere, we don't want nostr or 'radically open' we want social technologies that facilitate democracy, human dignity and being able to defend ourselves from nations that don't care about any of it. In the German constitution we have a concept for this Wehrhafte Demokratie, 'militant democracy', building democratic tools that are able of defeating its enemies, not individual escapism.

baka367 2 hours ago||
As long as E2E encryption is not guaranteed and we rely on id verification, the only thing this can do is to limit the 3rd parties that can easily access your data. Everything else is in the air
h05sz487b 2 hours ago|
Perfect is the enemy of the good. Anything is better than the oligarchs systems.
neilv 2 hours ago|
Wouldn't hurt to also use European DNS TLDs.
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