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Posted by simonpure 1 day ago

SpaceX sheds $400B in market value as debut rally hits reverse(www.ft.com)
75 points | 85 comments
kingstnap 23 hours ago|
Even if it drops to 1/2 its IPO price ($855B valuation) that still massively overpaying for it.

What do they think is gonna come from this SpaceX + Twitter + XAi + Cursor amalgamation? Sexbot agents vibe coding on Mars?

justanotherjoe 21 hours ago||
Something like the plan in the anime Jormungand maybe? (https://jormungand.fandom.com/wiki/Jormungand)
gymbeaux 22 hours ago|||
The plan is simply for insiders to offload their bags (overvalued shares) to retail investors, like the folk who frequent the wallstreetbets subreddit and do all their “investing” on Robinhood. This speaks to the larger trend of the lower and middle class apparently giving up on any plans to retire- and it’s understandable as the federal minimum wage has never been so disconnected from the cost of living, plus inflation, plus the current job market being universally terrible (even for software engineers), et al.

It’s worth noting that this is nothing new. I’m reminded of Virgin Galactic, another “space company” that was heavily speculated on. Predictably, insiders like Richard Branson himself sold a large number of shares (well into the millions of dollars) ahead of the inevitable “dump” where the share price fell around 75% in a matter of weeks. Virgin Galactic (SPCE) entered the Nasdaq via SPAC - Special Purpose Acquisition Group - essentially a company whose sole purpose is to acquire a private company, thereby effectively making the company public. Why wouldn’t Virgin Galactic just go public? Why go through a SPAC? The short answer is “to bypass regulations.”

OpenInsider is an excellent website that makes it easy to see when insiders buy or sell a stock, and the most common pattern is insiders dumping their shares in overvalued companies. We saw it when Zoom and Crispr and a few others shot up several hundred percentage points during COVID. C-suite and board members made out like bandits. Those weren’t even SPACs, those were just companies that people were foolish enough to speculate on.

Finally I want to bring attention to Robinhood, the stock trading platform that eliminated commission on trades from all brokerages - Schwab, Fidelity, Merrill Lynch, et al- by making it incredibly quick and easy (and free) to buy and sell stocks. They opened this Pandora’s Box, though I suppose it was bound to happen eventually- brokerages charged $7 per trade (sometimes more) and obviously for the college student who wants to throw $20 at Amazon stock… losing $7 in and then $7 again on the way out makes no sense. Now for anyone giving Robinhood the benefit of the doubt- their evil was (I think) absolutely confirmed when they unveiled a new feature- you can now trade OPTIONS with your retirement account. Options are essentially gambling, so to enable people to throw away their retirement on gambling is truly vile.

glimshe 20 hours ago|||
Gambling has always been a mechanism for transferring money from the poor to the rich. Platforms like Robin Hood just finished transforming the entirety of the stock market into a casino that preys on the poor (oh the irony about the company's name).

True investing, which in theory could be done even with Robin Hood, is boring and incompatible with gamification. Warren Buffett famously said that the reason people don't often become rich with stocks is because nobody wants to get rich slowly.

jjav 19 hours ago||||
> Now for anyone giving Robinhood the benefit of the doubt- their evil was (I think) absolutely confirmed when they unveiled a new feature- you can now trade OPTIONS with your retirement account.

While I think robinhood has done some shady practices, this isn't one. I can trade options in a Fidelity IRA just as well.

potsandpans 10 hours ago||||
Most if not all brokerages allow you to do that. I just opened up my fidelity and etrade to check.

That doesn't make it right perse, but your moralisation at the end becomes more weak. Robinhood is only as "truly vile" as all of wall street.

And anyway, options can play a decent role in financial strategy, most retailers don't use these instruments appropriately. To quote The Big Short, "this is wall street dr bury, if you offer us free money we're going to take it."

TalkingCodeMonk 21 hours ago||||
Agreed. More importantly, this long documented history of massive recurring multi-billion dollar fraud and theft – mostly from domestic and international retirement funds – indicates that America is essentially, for all intents and purposes, a plutocratic dictatorship with the illusion of democracy. Ticking a box every few years, when all your options are pre-positioned to continue a criminal status-quo, is neither "democracy" or "by/for the people". This systemic corruption did not materialise out of thin air recently. It has arguably been present all of history (in every economy). It's just accelerated to psychopathic levels of obscene gratuity over the last 2 decades.

This is why I've voted with my wallet the only way I can, by moving all of my investments (including retirement) out of the American market. The rot is far too deep. The few bad apples have entirely spoiled the bunch. I'm not under any illusion other markets will be safe from the fallout, or that I'll make better returns long term, but I do not care. I'm voting the only way I can given the current system. If I'd moved my investments earlier, when I came to this conclusion, I would have actually made significantly larger gains over the last couple of years.

blini-kot 20 hours ago||
apologies, not putting it directly at you

I've always thought americans had an amendment specifically for situations when voting does not work

I think it's a great illustration of complicated cybernetics at work, i.e. its not enough to give people the right to enact change and own the instruments for it: homeostatic forces will preserve status quo no matter how many firearms are circulating. Can't really think of a clean approach to this predicament though

OutOfHere 21 hours ago|||
Options is gambling only for the vast majority who're inexperienced with them or don't have a sound theory for them. I can trade them in my setup with over a 95% success rate, perhaps even 99%. Of course I am not going to type out my theory here.

Such an overgeneralization ruined your otherwise reasonable comment. Always stop when you are winning.

busyant 13 hours ago||
Explanation 1: You're lying / delusional about your success rate.

Explanation 2: Your trading "theory" is sound, but your theory requires specific and rare conditions to be met before you trade, so your 95-99% success rate only achieves modest gains.

OutOfHere 12 hours ago||
Of course I require specific conditions and I limit the amount at risk. I don't know who doesn't. Regarding me lying, no, but I accept that the pattern can change in the future.
bwhiting2356 21 hours ago|||
what's the point of being vertically integrated if they're just going to rent out their compute (https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/ai-startup-re...). This signals to me they don't have an internal use for it
reverius42 21 hours ago|||
You could say the same about AWS circa 2011 though.
spwa4 18 hours ago|||
It's the reverse. The purpose of AWS was in 2011 was financial internal Amazon use. They had never invested in proper communication between the (many) parts of the Amazon webstore so everything was ad-hoc (like it still is in essentially every other company). If the website talked to an (internal) payment provider, that was one protocol. Another internal payment provider? Different protocol. Mail customers? SMTP (and not transactional like now, unless your website code implemented the transactional part).

That's what the first version of AWS was like. A standard set of interfaces. (you offer compute to the company? You implement these methods. You offer payment? You implement these methods. You offer ... etc)

They hadn't (yet) settled on a single RPC method but that's what it was. Then, as a financial innovation they started offering as many as possible to outside parties so they could use that money to pay for buildouts without loans, and a tax rebate on top. That's how AWS came to be. It had quite a few uses: it would simplify the amazon website, but most of all: it would allow for financial innovation in hosting the website (people still don't understand that when using AWS they what they are fundamentally doing is give Amazon better interest rates on loans to build datacenter hosting for their other activities. People still don't understand that the core of Amazon is not selling, is not AWS, it is financial innovation).

It was very much not a company selling to itself because it couldn't find outside buyers. It was a company selling to outsiders screaming to buy their internal products so the internal products would essentially be built for free and Uncle Sam would even provide tax rebates for building them (think about it: without AWS, Amazon datacenters are for internal use and tax is due on the equipment. With AWS Amazon datacenters are built to rent out and you can deduct any spend on building them ... smart, no?)

(that's also how Google cloud came to be, with very different emphasis and timeline)

thewhitetulip 20 hours ago|||
AWS did not need to buy excess inventory from Amazon because the sales were down

They also didn't need to buy another company lead by Bezos because ot was going cost him very much if certain conditions are met

DoesntMatter22 21 hours ago|||
It signals to me that they like money and people are willing to give it to them at unprecedented levels, and probably still have plenty of capacity for themselves afterwards. Why would you not accept billions of dollars per month?
bwhiting2356 19 hours ago||
they have a healthy datacenter business. Does that justify their valuation?
mgh2 22 hours ago|||
They are buying their time (6 months) before being included in the S&P500s, causing another inevitable surge in forced "demand".
opinion-is-bad 22 hours ago|||
It’ll be at least a year before they are eligible to join the S&P500. They also need to become profitable.
helsinkiandrew 21 hours ago||||
In the next 6 months another 45%-50% of Space X stock is unlocked, increasing the amount of shares on the market ~10 fold.

Although many will be long term believers who won’t sell. I can’t see how this couldn’t deflate the share price further

Ancalagon 22 hours ago|||
Nit: the phrase is “biding their time” FYI

I agree with your statement overall.

lokar 22 hours ago||
Or “buying time”
tialaramex 21 hours ago||
"Buying time" is an ordinary phrase in English but, it doesn't make a lot of sense here because there'd be some activity SpaceX is doing to "buy time". If you're just waiting that doesn't "buy time".
lokar 21 hours ago||
I think they just blended together in the posters mind
rchaud 23 hours ago|||
Pentagon contracts.
kingstnap 8 hours ago|||
If you add up GE Aerospace, RTX Corporation, The Boeing Company, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and General Dynamics put together you get a market cap of about 1T btw.
rchaud 4 hours ago||
Those companies aren't considered "tech" so their share prices observe the laws of gravity. A single tweet about xAI-powered nuclear drones launched from the moon or whatever would probably cause the stock to go up 50%. And pumping the stock is all that matters.
lokar 22 hours ago||||
Until MAGA is out of power
rlt 21 hours ago||
SpaceX is critical to national security and NASA. A new administration isn’t going to change that.
tastyface 8 hours ago||
We simply cannot allow an unstable white nationalist who's deeply enmeshed in global far-right politics to be in singular control of a megacorp that's critical to national security. It's a far bigger risk than divesting from SpaceX and building or doing something else, if not outright nationalization.

Any non-MAGA leader would find this pretty obvious.

thereitgoes456 23 hours ago|||
So? It’ll never pay dividends..
SilverElfin 23 hours ago|||
Morningstar has the most conservative valuation as far as I know, at $780B

https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/spacex-what-investors-nee...

darth_avocado 22 hours ago|||
Don’t talk about fair valuations. Some people will say “who decides what anything is worth anyway”? Let people do what they want. If they lose their money they signed up for it.
Grombobulous 21 hours ago|||
I think the bigger issue is that oligarchs have gotten so powerful that they can just write down the valuation they want and the market will just agree with it blindly.

The issue isn’t that investors will lose their money, the issue is that in some cases like Tesla they never do. The oligarchs are propped up by their own power over the behavior or the market — a power which is disproportionally larger than the objective value their companies bring to the economy.

SpaceX is a company with the same revenue as Dick’s Sporting Goods.

DoesntMatter22 21 hours ago||
I don't get the complaint about Tesla. It's profitable, has little debt and 40 billion in the bank. What sort of "Power over the behavior of the market" do they exert? Like they can force people to buy their cars.

Space X has the most sophisticated vehicle ever created by man. Dicks does not. If you are only looking at revenue then sure, but that would be silly, you have to look at what the potential in a company is not it's current revenue, if not then looking at Blockbuster in 2008 would seem like a great investment compared to Netflix which didn't have much revenue.

Hikikomori 17 hours ago|||
Did their potential go up or down when their CEO started heiling?
slumberlust 6 hours ago||
Considering that led to turning the white house lawn into a car sales lot, I'd bet it went up.
jojobas 21 hours ago|||
I don't think most people signed up for it by just having some money in their pension funds.
nh23423fefe 8 hours ago|||
They literally did. Investing in a broad market index means you want to own everything because you can't pick winners.

You just imagine you can pick for no good reason.

jojobas 42 minutes ago||
Pension funds are forbidden from picking winners and are required to buy into these indexes though. At best you can choose which index.
dgellow 21 hours ago|||
SpaceX isn’t in indexes yet… That will be included later this month in NASDAQ & co.
jojobas 21 hours ago||
The valuation is about to be just as unfair.
dgellow 8 hours ago||
yeah, that's for sure
qq66 21 hours ago|||
One theory is that Elon Musk ends up being able to build AI datacenters faster and more cost effectively than anyone else, which seems plausible given the success of Tesla Gigafactories.
roryirvine 15 hours ago|||
Datacentres are close to being a commodity, though.

There's some stuff you can do with Combined Cooling & Power or other cogeneration schemes, and potential for cost-cutting: removing fire protection, doing without redundant power, reducing security, that sort of thing. But that's all fairly marginal in the grand scheme of things.

The more experimental stuff like running with extreme temperature gradients, extensive liquid cooling, or maybe using CO2 or He instead of air is certainly worth trying out, but unlikely to make much of a difference either.

SpaceX are claiming that they're making a big profit on their deals with Anthropic and OpenAI but that seems to assume that the cost of the compute is zero. I'm not a forensic accountant, so maybe it's okay to have written the value of that down already, but it's not a trick they'll be able to pull off more than once.

Really, the best thing you can say about them is that they've got a big pile of money so can finance capital expenditure cheaply. That gives them an edge of a few percentage points over the likes of Equinix (worth $14.2bn), but not much more than that.

dgellow 21 hours ago||||
That doesn’t justify the valuation in any way
tpm 12 hours ago|||
A few Chinese companies build both batteries and cars faster and more cost effectively than anyone else including Tesla though.
zulux 11 hours ago||
something is going on with those Chinese companies if the equivalent Toyota costs twice as much to produce.

It could be close-to-free labor, subsidies, or a myriad other things... but it's something.

wolvoleo 23 hours ago|||
> Sexbot agents vibe coding on Mars?

Now that I'd invest in :)

BobbyTables2 21 hours ago|||
That’s at least something to look forward to!
paytonjjones 22 hours ago|||
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jimmygrapes 22 hours ago||
I know they broke up but I can't help but feel this is related: (Grimes - We Appreciate Power)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYG_4vJ4qNA

mikelitoris 22 hours ago||
Why don’t they name it: SpaceX + X (twtr) + xAI = SpaceXXXAI
wmf 22 hours ago||
Don't give him ideas.
sscaryterry 21 hours ago||
I would not put it past Elon.
rlt 21 hours ago||
Honestly a little surprised the ticker wasn’t $XXX
qsxfthnkp2322 21 hours ago||
Sadly that exists already.
AndrewDucker 19 hours ago||
Or combine the 3: SpAIceX
phyzix5761 21 hours ago||
This is pretty normal for tech stocks. Most have a big pop on the first few days of IPO and then they drop. After 180 days, insiders can start selling shares so there's another drop around that time due to a higher supply for shares on the sell side.
Yizahi 16 hours ago||
This happens witch such predictability and not only in IT stocks that I started to wonder, if that is not illegal? I mean, illegal in a spirit of insider trading laws, not literally illegal.
carabiner 21 hours ago||
It's Probably Overpriced
dlcarrier 18 hours ago||
Most stocks are. The price to earnings ratio almost never justifies the value.
autophagian 21 hours ago||
Newton’s third law. To get anywhere, you have to leave something behind (bagholders).
grebc 21 hours ago|
Haha I like this!
helpfulfrond 21 hours ago||
https://archive.is/lqPsS
Gud 19 hours ago||
Personally I'm a big fan of Rocket Lab. Peter Beck is a once a generation engineer and is building an amazing company.
ghtbircshotbe 13 hours ago|
RKLB has a price/revenue near 100, not much better than SPCX.
fsuts 21 hours ago||
https://archive.ph/lqPsS

Or direct share price chart https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-search-results/s/spacex-u...

Tl;dr it’s still above the IPO price so the favoured investors still at a profit and Musk is still a trillionaire.

As with Tesla, Musk will keep coming up with ‘profits suck but we are doing x new shiny project so don’t worry’ announcements to keep retail investors believing…

moezd 22 hours ago||
SpaceX + Twitter + XAi + Cursor is the perfect combo to collect government contracts. You want exposure in social media? Use Twitter. Civil servants want AI? Use Grok. Developers want AI? Use Cursor. All space heading business? Contact SpaceX. All under the polished (!), totally unblemished (!) PR image of Musk.

Someone please wake me up if this is a fever dream.

flowerthoughts 20 hours ago|
I think this has been Musk's play for more than a decade. Except the Twitter purchase, which was just weird. It's possible the AI play is for data center subsidies/tax breaks. TBC didn't go too well in terms of California rail expansion contracts, I think, but perhaps he can get some Pentagon money for building military DCs.
ryandvm 7 hours ago|||
Yeah. I love how the guy behind DOGE has benefited more from US federal largess than any other person on Earth.
moezd 19 hours ago|||
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jojobas 21 hours ago|
Didn't even wait until the pension funds buy in?
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