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Posted by earcar 19 hours ago

Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice(paolino.me)
567 points | 692 commentspage 8
sph 18 hours ago|
Is it as tortuous to open a self-trader account with VAT ID, or is it just to found a company (the German equivalent of an ltd)?
stymaar 18 hours ago||
Do you really need for the legal process to be completed before invoicing?

In France you can do it as soon as you started the process.

CodesInChaos 16 hours ago|
At least for reverse charge you'll need a VAT ID.
procaryote 14 hours ago||
Don't start a company in Germany. There are many better european countries
jayess 13 hours ago||
I love these stories. The timeline is precious. And the comments from folks saying "gee, you picked the most complicated business entity, joke's on you!"

Just looking at my own state (Michigan) I can form the most "complicated" entity for $60 filing fee. Using a fill-in-the-blank form online. And have it approved the same day for an additional $50. Get an EIN online from the IRS in 10 minutes. Walk to a bank and open an account in about another hour. Annual renewal fee is $20.

In less than a day and for $110, I have a corporation, EIN (federal tax registration number), and bank account. Open for business. An LLC is the same, just a different form filed with the state.

I can then open credit card accounts online in the business name, register for sales tax online (get the license in about a week), and open a stripe account.

Oh, and a businessowners general liability insurance policy is costing me $205 per year. $1 million in liability coverage.

PaulHoule 17 hours ago||
Outside of some kleptocracies, Germany has long had a reputation as the hardest place to found a firm.
lucamark 18 hours ago||
Europe will suffocate under the weight of its own bureaucracy. The sad thing is that it is not new to me, I've heard so many stories like this one. This is the kind of friction that makes founders incorporate elsewhere.

Also, a founder spending months coordinating lawyers banks and tax advisors is not talking to customers or building the product. The opportunity cost here is huge.

Anyway, you are pretty close. One more push, don’t give up. :)

tikotus 17 hours ago||
Germany is not EU though. Very different bureaucracy in different EU countries. Up to a point, EU doesn't add a single bit of bureaucracy to the stack. Only once you reach a certain limit you will have to enroll in an international VAT system, which is not too bad.

EDIT: Just re-read your message. I thought it said EU. But the point stands, Germany is not Europe either.

lucamark 15 hours ago||
In many other european countries, the story doesn't change much - with some exceptions. The irony is that the EU is now discussing EU Inc. a law to let startups incorporate online within 48 hours, for at most €100, under a single optional corporate framework across Europe.

That is exactly the right direction. But for now it is just a proposal

gregorygoc 17 hours ago||
Ah yes, Germany == Europe.
lucamark 16 hours ago||
Do you think that stuffs are different in Italy, Spain or France? Just to cite some others
gregorygoc 14 hours ago||
Yes, it is different in Netherlands, Sweden, Poland.
lucamark 11 hours ago||
Expections occur
noosphr 18 hours ago||
When these threads show up it is always funny that Germans are shocked anyone expects anything else and everyone is shocked at Germany.

Luckily with how the current German economy is doing this is a problem that will solve itself. It's like the last half a dozen German governments look at the Morgenthau Plan plan and thought it was an amazing idea they must implement.

pell 17 hours ago|
I really didn’t have the feeling that Germans are shocked about some of these inefficiencies at all. Typically they’re just a result of long processes thus difficult to change. I do agree that Germany and the EU as a whole should not make this process so cumbersome. It shouldn’t be easier to found a US foreign LLC from abroad than a company in one’s country or residence. The proposed EU LLC might solve some of those issues if it comes to fruition.

Regarding the economy though, Germany is still the third richest country on earth. I think this talking point about their huge regression is mostly FUD.

DeathArrow 15 hours ago||
Just a little taste of the European bureaucracy.

The whole reality is much worse.

thomas_witt 15 hours ago||
As much as I would like to agree with you about how non-digitized and rotten and crooked the whole notary etc system is - as someone who has incorporated and invested in dozens of German companies (UGs, GmbHs, and GmbH & Co. KGs), I’d seriously reconsider the UG & Co. KG structure for a one-person software business.

The tax explanation in the post is oversimplified.

Examples: With a KG, if the business earns €100k, that profit is attributed directly to you and taxed as personal income, whether you distribute it or not. At higher income levels, that’s roughly 45% including solidarity surcharge (and potentially church tax).

With a UG or GmbH, the company pays Körperschaftssteuer plus Gewerbesteuer, typically around 30% combined (depending on where its incorporated). On €100k profit, about €70k remains inside the company. If you later distribute it, you’ll pay capital gains tax based on the Halbeinkünfteverfahren on the distribution - which is 25% + Soli, bringing the total tax burden to roughly the same level as the KG.

The key difference is that with a UG/GmbH you can leave profits inside the company. That money can be reinvested into the business, other startups, ETFs, stocks, etc. - most often with only 1,5% effective tax while the money is working for you. You defer the second layer of taxation until you actually take the money out.

Also, you can pay yourself a salary. Whatever portion you pay out as salary is taxed personally just as it would be in the KG structure - but this time its company expenses, so no double taxation here either.

A few other points:

* A GmbH no longer requires €25k - its only 12,5k€ - and its also not to be locked away forever. The money can be used for legitimate business expenses immediately after incorporation.

* A decent tax advisor can usually get a VAT ID much faster than described in the article.

* A UG is widely accepted in the startup ecosystem. I’ve never seen customers reject an otherwise attractive startup because it started life as a UG. For investors, it's routine.

* Converting a UG into a GmbH later is routine, if you want to start small. If you have the 12,5k€ money, do a GmbH to save administrative hassle.

* A UG & Co. KG creates significantly more administration: two entities, two annual accounts, additional bookkeeping, additional filings, and additional advisor costs.

Of course there are valid reasons to use a GmbH & Co. KG, especially for complicated co-investment arrangements, but from what you wrote, that's not the case here. Therefore, for a solo software founder, I’d question whether the additional complexity buys you anything meaningful.

Bonus tip: You MIGHT want to consider owning your share in the Software UG not directly but through another UG, paolino UG or so. When you foresee to sell your business for significant money later, then you'll have exactly the same advantage, the money can stay in the company for reinvestment and you don't have to give up 50% of your capital gains in the moment you sign the sellers agreement. You CAN't do this easily later.

Not legal or tax advice. Just my personal experience.

stubbi 18 hours ago|
Yeah very relatable unfortunately!
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