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Posted by shadowtree 6 hours ago

There are a few things that I look back on as my mistakes in the early days(twitter.com)
https://xcancel.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/2069799283369345247
413 points | 207 commentspage 3
cubefox 4 hours ago|
One thing that happened much later, after Carmack himself left, was that id software stopped pushing the boundaries of engine development. Their last great innovation was magatextures, or virtual texture streaming in its more modern form.

Now cutting edge graphical features are mostly pushed by Epic and their Unreal engine. Like ray-traced global illumination, virtual shadow maps, virtual geometry, and fast ray-traced direct illumination.

But id software's games themselves arguably improved after Carmack left, despite not pushing technical boundaries. Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, and Doom TDA all were received very favorably at the time. Not sure whether this had anything to do with Carmack leaving though.

vor_ 5 minutes ago|
Megatexture caused a lot of problems. In fact, it was such a hindrance that it was removed from the engine in Doom Eternal.
grim_io 6 hours ago||
Maybe peak excellence is simply not sustainable.
logicchains 6 hours ago|
Let's let GTA6 be the judge of that.
c-hendricks 5 hours ago|||
Well there was no "id Wives Letter"
bigstrat2003 5 hours ago|||
We don't need to wait for GTA 6. RDR 2 was already a serious letdown from the first game. Rockstar has lost sight of the fact that they are making games, not movies, and that games need to be fun to play. RDR 2 is significantly less fun to play than its predecessor because they are constantly trying to shove cinematic moments and immersion into the game.
stuxnet79 5 hours ago|||
This is a perfect articulation of why even 13 years later, I still have no motivation to beat GTA 5. It worked great as a quasi-movie but not a video game.
WA 1 hour ago||
Happened to me with GTA IV and I have been playing all games since GTA 1. Maybe I just grew too old for these story-driven games, but I never finished it and haven't touched GTA V at all. San Andreas was probably my favorite.
mynameajeff 5 hours ago||||
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at all given how different people's tastes and preferences are, but I couldn't feel any less in agreement. RDR2 was an incredible experience I still haven't come close to completing purely due t my enjoyment of the immersive content you're deriding. It's not a perfect games by any means but the amount of awe I get from the systems in the game and the immersion it gives me is enough to have me extremely excited for GTA 6 as someone who was previously extremely skeptical of it living up to anywhere near its hype.
Maxatar 3 hours ago||||
Any form of media can be criticized, that's the nature of it... but RDR 2 is widely considered to be among the best games ever made.

Is there going to be someone out there who doesn't like it? Sure, take absolutely any game whatsoever and there's someone out there who will tell you it's not good... but by any reasonable measure: critical reception, awards, lasting cultural impact, influence on future games, it's almost across the board on the positive end of the spectrum. You're of course free to dislike it, but claiming it to be a "serious letdown" treats your singular point of view as if it were a consensus, when the actual consensus is overwhelmingly the opposite.

newsoftheday 5 hours ago|||
I enjoyed Deus Ex: Mankind Divided but even it had too many cut scenes, come to think of it, so did Metro Exodus.
stephc_int13 5 hours ago||
The trajectory of id software is interesting.

The company was successful, had one of the most prestigious brand in the game industry, was early enough to capitalize on the rise of PC gaming, incredible talents and tech.

Yet it didn't transform into a Blizzard or Epic.

And it seems that both the early success and stall were the responsibility of one very talented but somewhat obtuse nerd.

vor_ 9 minutes ago||
The loss of the original team was a tremendous blow. After Quake, a common criticism of id was that they put out tech demos instead of games.
sunrunner 4 hours ago||
> Yet it didn't transform into a Blizzard or Epic.

Now what was that thing about living long enough to become the villain.

everyone 6 hours ago||
I've actually been playing some Quake mods recently..

Arcane dimensions

Brutalist Jams 1,2,3

Call of the Machine

Alkaline

But when it came out I found Quake dissapointing. I still feel that DOOM is a more fun game. It's just always way more fun to kill 10 weak enemies rather than one super tanky one. Also the art style of DOOM is more varied and vivid and fun and heavy metal.. Quake is so dull and dour and brown. Even the movement in Quake seems a bit off imo, its too easy for your great honking non-rotating cube hitbox to get hung up on tiny bits of geometry (I know its actually a point, but it works out the same a non rotating cuboid).. Also making new maps and enemies and content just seems so easy in DOOM.. There is some great modern Quake content (mentioned above) but the amount of stuff for DOOM dwarfs it.

pipeline_peak 5 hours ago||
What ruined the company was refusing to turn ID Tech into an ecosystem to compete with Unreal and Source Engine.
_doctor_love 6 hours ago||
Great read. Further proof that we are all victims of each others learning experiences.
casey2 5 hours ago||
They could have, I'm not convinced they would have. It's very difficult for designers to come up with something novel and good. Most of the amazing things you with old tech are backports of ideas that only exist because people using new tech had them.
AtNightWeCode 5 hours ago||
Quake is easily the most groundbreaking game released. Not only was it the first popular game with real 3D. The game play was the first that really took the precision from old games and transformed it into 3D. An excellent piece of tech that many games as of today still are children of.
CamperBob2 6 hours ago||
I agree with one of the comments: "'Coulda been Doom++' hides how everyone wanted the leap back then."

Doom++ was already well under way in the form of Ken Silverman's Build engine. Duke Nukem 3D beat Quake to market by ~6 months as I recall. A shorter timeline on the latter would have put them in direct competition with each other, damaging both.

It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines. He did just that, and shouldn't apologize or second-guess himself.

zaphar 6 hours ago||
I think it's quite fine to acknowledge that you pushed someone or some group of people to hard as a leader. A genre defining game is not the sort of thing that deserves wrecking someone. We may appreciate the game that came out the other end while acknowledging that it may not have been worth the cost.
twoodfin 5 hours ago||
Interestingly, as I read the thread that spawned this reply, Sandy appears to argue that in fact it was worth it, despite being personally “wrecked” and believing it might have been done differently.
ipython 6 hours ago|||
It is super refreshing to hear someone saying sorry. Honestly. In a manner that actually seems sincere and self reflective.

Yes carmack may have been an asshole, but it takes a real man to recognize and own up to your own human flaws. Kudos. We need more of that in this world.

efficax 6 hours ago|||
from my memory of the time the whole promise of quake was that it was going to be a huge technological innovation. that’s what we wanted, that’s what kept my interest and had me playing the leaked alpha and buying on day one. this is an interesting perspective they have because quake was a huge success. nobody at the time thought it fell short of doom. so maybe it broke id’s internal culture, but it put them in a position to continue to succeed. quake 2 was the misstep, it just wasn’t that great of a game, or that’s how it looked from the outside
vkazanov 4 hours ago||
Quake 1 was an unbelievable tech breakthrough: full 3d, quakec vm, overall engine design held up really well. It was not a perfect game but it was ok.

I still hack on the engine and its derivations from time to time.

Quake 2 was a development of that, will a deep focus on multiplayer. And it won at that. As a singlr player game it was boring but LAN play was just amazing.

So quake 3 did rethink the engine but went all in on multiplayer.

As funny as it may sound but in the end, it is quake 1 that just keeps going thanks to its easy moddabilty.

pornel 5 hours ago|||
I was interested in Quake only because of the breakthrough 3D graphics, architecturally stunning levels, and later QuakeC.

I don't care for the story, and I wouldn't play Doom++. Electric polar bears and some Shrub lava mule, whatever. But swimming in deep underwater ruins with full 3-axis freedom was awesome.

I couldn't play multiplayer back then. Dialup sucked and was more expensive than AI tokens. Ethernet was still rare. Lugging a CRT monitor to friend's house was a chore reserved for a once-a-year LAN party.

jorl17 6 hours ago|||
Sandy might remember.
CamperBob2 6 hours ago||
Fair point, I'm going to retract that remark.
nickpeterson 6 hours ago|||
It’s always interesting when people who excel at an activity express regrets about certain decisions. I find it reassuring that being great at something doesn’t mean flawless.
georgeburdell 5 hours ago|||
Exactly. This sort of retrospective is a soft pulling up of the ladder, a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-did mea culpa where the conscience is assuaged but the spoils remain where they always were. We should accept that there is a season to burn the candle at both ends, to exploit youthful energy and to do great things.

Current Carmack would not have been capable of making Quake.

ekelsen 6 hours ago|||
Might matter a lot to sandy. I think it says a lot that decades later one of the things he remembers is someone he (or the larger company) hurt.
paulryanrogers 6 hours ago|||
Id software would've benefitted from the income of another release. I thoroughly enjoyed Build games before and long after Quake.

Demand was high. I doubt they'd have suffered even if released on the same day.

raverbashing 6 hours ago||
> It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines.

Did they really?

Did ID make more money with engine licensing than with game sales?

They needed to ship. I think Quake Engine could wait, and have Doom++ would have given them some slack

This is the opposite to the Boeing problem (shipping the rehashed product instead of the brand new thing)

CamperBob2 4 hours ago|||
There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, maybe you've heard of it.

iD's engines were famously known in the industry as tech demos first, first-party game platforms second. I'm not sure how the revenue picture ended up looking, though. They obviously made a lot of money from their 'tech demos.'

raverbashing 1 hour ago||
> There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life,

Yes and Wikipedia claims it was a "heavily modified" version of the engine

And while I get the tech demo angle, doesn't mean that Quake had to be one of those

retr0rocket 5 hours ago|||
[dead]
orliesaurus 5 hours ago|
Was john carmack the elon musk of that time (minus the political baggage Era)?
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