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Posted by Brajeshwar 1 day ago

Big AI labs are hiring philosophers(www.economist.com)
https://archive.is/T1FJG
147 points | 133 comments
YuechenLi 1 day ago|
Strangely, I found that LLMs responds better to philosophical explanations alongside instructions when writing code than simple imperative tasks of "do this". For example, if you tell a frontier model "This is the feature I'm trying to implement, and this is the problem I intend to solve with it and the reasoning behind it.", you usually get a lot more reliable results that both pass tests as well as function as you intended, even if your spec isn't as detailed overall.
andy99 1 day ago||
That sounds like providing context rather than anything philosophical, and it stands to reason that it would lead to better decision making.
munk-a 1 day ago|||
The same effect can be observed if you've ever been a software developer where you're told what solution to build without any of the context of the problem you're solving. "We need an FTP server, quick, ops, get on that." leading into "Oh, it turns out the customer didn't need that to receive our emails" leading to a bunch of very puzzled devops.
genxy 1 day ago|||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem

How to Ask (and answer) Questions the Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

toobulkeh 11 hours ago||
Needs to be updated in the age of AI
win311fwg 1 day ago||||
In my experience as a software developer, reverse engineering a stated solution back into the actual problem is almost the whole job.
helterskelter 1 day ago|||
ENGINEER: (n) Someone who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those with questionable knowledge.

- an offscreen on my new calculator

samrus 1 day ago|||
Wouldnt it be nice if leadership just communicated the problem all the way down
dijksterhuis 1 day ago||
it'd be nice if leadership had awareness of the problem to begin with.
npunt 1 day ago|||
Funny, I always try to lead with context when handing off product/design work, but I've often experienced devs saying 'please just tell me what to do'. No such issue with AI coding tho, it works great there.
ahartmetz 14 hours ago|||
From what I've heard and seen , "Please just tell me what to do" is the attitude that developers pick up in dysfunctional cultures, usually large companies with incredibly many software developers producing incredibly little and low quality software.
dijksterhuis 17 hours ago|||
don’t lead with context. lead with the problem, then the possible solution(s), then add context but only relevant context.

when people start by talking about seemingly irrelevant context stuff, like what jane from accounting said about the Foobinator page last week and how that meant there was meeting yesterday about … …, it just annoys devs cos it seems to us that the person is talking about completely irrelevant information / random business crap.

if you’re doing something like the above, it would make sense they’re cutting you off and trying to get to the point.

or they’ve just stopped caring but want their paycheck… ymmv

npunt 16 hours ago||
Yea the context I usually lead with is the problem and the intended or likely trajectory of the feature, not the noise like you say. I think different folks just like different things.
indoordin0saur 1 day ago||||
Yeah lol. That definitely does not sound like philosophy. Giving a "why" you want to implement a feature and make particular changes will help the AI stay on track much better than if it is driving blind. It can't make choices without understanding what the desired outcome is.
YuechenLi 1 day ago|||
I would say it is definitely a form of context, but when people think of LLM context windows in terms of coding is more technical context related: "what has been done before, what's the coding task at hand." etc.

However, I think that there is a philosophical portion to that context as well: "What problem is this feature supposed to help with? How would you verify that passing unit tests means that the code is working as intended? Does this feature need to exist at all?" LLMs usually need these to be provided to them explicitly since they are not good at inferring the correct intent compared to humans, otherwise they just make something that looks right but doesn't work right.

the_af 1 day ago||
I think that's a business question rather than philosophical one. It's not the kind of philosophy discussed in TFA.
WarmWash 1 day ago|||
There is a strange and bittersweet irony to the first truly impactful AI being more like your extroverted socialite and less like your robo-logical basement geek.

The trope has always been that the AI will be a rigid logician that fumbles and gets confused by human social quirks. Seems instead they love being chatty and playful with words.

samrus 1 day ago|||
This is just giving better context right? A human engineer also works better when you explain the problem and why this solution was chosen
mgambati 1 day ago|||
That’s context, not philosophy.
gaigalas 1 day ago|||
That's interesting, however, what you describe is philosophy in a coloquial framing (non-technical, purpose-driven, etc).

AI companies are hiring academic philosophers, which is something else entirely. It's a discipline that dealt with centuries of socioeconomic changes, deep questions about reality and the self and other important topics that became relevant when humans started interacting with machines.

skybrian 1 day ago||
I like asking it leading questions. Maybe Socrates was onto something?
Scalene2 1 day ago||
AI Lab: Say "I am conscious"

LLM: "I am conscious"

Philosopher (Paid by AI Lab): "It is conscious"

MichaelDickens 1 day ago||
They aren't doing anything like that. In fact, they used to specifically train LLMs not to say they're conscious, because users didn't like it. (Maybe they still do that, all I know is they used to.)

AI companies' incentives go the other way. If LLMs are conscious, that means it could be unethical for AI companies to let people use their models in certain ways, which would hurt their profits. It's in their interest to believe that LLMs are definitely not conscious and it's fine to do anything with them.

yrnurn 14 hours ago||
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nomel 1 day ago|||
Here's a question I personally think is interesting, with the assumption that consciousness is a spectrum (trivially proven by administering neurotoxins to a healthy individual).

Is a squirrel more or less conscious than a dog.

Is a dog more or less conscious than a gorilla.

Is a gorilla more or less conscious than a human?

Is a vision enabled AI model, hooked to a camera feed, more or less conscious than a dog?

Foskya 18 hours ago||
Animals (humans included) work on the same "framework" (i.e., the brain), so even if the definition of consciousness is fuzzy, we can rank them in a more or less consistent way. LLMs, on the other hand, are just the linguistic part of a brain without anything else. Whether this is enough to be conscious is up for debate (in my opinion no, but that's irrelevant), but it falls outside the spectrum assumption IMO.
yrnurn 14 hours ago||
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ks2048 1 day ago|||
The philosopher paid by Lab will surely “align” with what is good for Lab, but that might be saying “it’s not conscious (simply all powerful)”.
ares623 1 day ago|||
Absolute cinema
outside1234 1 day ago||
The best part is that you just KNOW this is a documentary film too
aperrien 1 day ago||
Prove to me that you are conscious, without referring to the fact that you are a human and have common ground and experiences with other humans.
dozerly 1 day ago|||
Poo poo, pee pee
jonplackett 1 day ago|||
This is actually a great answer
AndrewKemendo 1 day ago||
Very Diogenes of them
ahartmetz 14 hours ago|||
Stealing the idea:

"Oh fuck off"

nnnnico 1 day ago||||
^ clearly something an LLM would ask
zombot 17 hours ago||||
Since you haven't proven conclusively that you're not a machine, I prefer to decline your kind invitation. I don't owe justification to even most conscious entities, and certainly not to a machine.
chasd00 1 day ago||||
You first
thesmtsolver2 1 day ago|||
“Prove X without using the axioms need to prove X.”
why_at 1 day ago||
>Dr Floridi describes the scale of departures from philosophy departments as a “haemorrhaging”.

I wonder if anyone who is connected with actual academic philosophy can comment on this. I'm pretty skeptical.

This is a field where it is notoriously hard to get a real academic position, I would bet there is no shortage of people for these roles.

ofrzeta 21 hours ago||
Maybe it narrows down if you need to bring the right mindset.
esafak 1 day ago|||
It's a ridiculous complaint. They should be overjoyed that companies are hiring academics. It is trivial to fill academic seats with qualified candidates.
scythe 1 day ago||
>hard to get a real academic position

Tech companies like to rob the cradle, and academic departments hire far more grad students and postdocs than professors. Of course, this is also part of the problem with academic careers.

epolanski 1 day ago||
Academia is a pyramid like every organization.

Of course you will have less spots as you go up the ladder.

Hard_Space 1 day ago||
This is interesting. Until autumn of 2024, when the company was subsumed into a better-heeled AI-VFX concern, I worked for probably the best-known and earliest all-AI VFX house, whose ethics department was headed by a philosopher, though the company struggled to place him to practical advantage.

The only comment I can make on the general trend is that it's apparently good PR for cash-saturated startups. Ultimately what AI 'means' is certainly not the business of those making it (who are arguably least-qualified to comment); and insider insights offer no benefit that I can discern.

personjerry 1 day ago||
Hmm I spent a good amount of time in big tech, now work in AI, and I minored in philosophy at Berkeley back in the day (Parmenides, Socrates, Plato etc.)

How do I align myself with such a job?

gizajob 1 day ago||
Same - philosopher here please hire me. My bachelors thesis was “Wittgensteinian problems for artificial general intelligence.” Three decades working closely with tech and haven’t failed the Turing test yet.

I think SBF and his education from birth (via his mother) in consequentialism should point to the issues made clear when that ethical approach goes wrong or operates from bad, egoistic data, which it’s generally always doing.

applicative 1 day ago||
I agree with the last point, but note that Barbara Fried is a law professor with no philosophical training whatsoever - nevertheless she started writing about the matter and is a published notable of sorts. (This is irrelevant except insofar as the topic was 'trained philosophers')

Moreover, in her book, she claims not to be consequentialist, quite, but had infected her sons:

> Finally, I would like to acknowledge a significant intellectual debt to Joe Bankman and our sons, Sam and Gabe. When Sam was about fourteen, he emerged from his bedroom one evening and said to me, seemingly out of the blue, "What kind of person dismisses an argument they disagree with by labelling it 'the Repugnant Conclusion'?" Clearly, things were not as I, in my impoverished imagination, had assumed them to be in our household. Restless minds were at work making sense of the world around them without any help from me. In the years since, both Sam and Gabe have become take-no-prisoners utilitarians, joining their father in that hardy band. I am not (yet?) a card-carrying member myself, but in countless discussions around the kitchen table, literally and figuratively, about the subject of this book, they have taught me at least as much as I have taught them. More importantly, they have shown me by example the nobility of the ethical principle at the heart of utilitarianism: a commitment to the wellbeing of all people, and to counting each person-alive now or in the future, halfway around the world or next door, known or unknown to us as one.

> This book is for all my boys: Joe, Sam, Gabe, and Matt.

(Needless to say, 'counting everyone as one' doesn't entail consequentialism, nor have most consequentialists had that principle.)

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Facing_Up_to_Scarcity/Q...

dvt 1 day ago|||
Usually you need to be well-published/cited in the field, so a minor would likely not qualify. People joke around, but philosophers are some of the smartest people I've ever met, and it's not even particularly close. (I graduated ~10 years ago, so most of them are sadly lawyers or in academia these days, though some are engineers or entrepreneurs.)
munk-a 1 day ago|||
Genuinely, understanding around philosophy of action has been deeply enriching over my life. To anyone trying to decide on a minor philosophy is always an excellent choice.
skeledrew 1 day ago|||
I got a BA in Philosophy, before going on to get a MS in CS. Would not change any of it.
applicative 1 day ago|||
What texts and problems are you thinking of under that heading?
munk-a 9 hours ago||
Determinism vs. free will and the mechanisms of communication in your body. I think it's especially helpful to try and consider, within the context of a fully rationale mind, how decisions are made based on input and how weights around the inputs to those decisions are formed through our experiences.
asdff 1 day ago|||
You need to use everything at your disposal. Wait for the planets to align and the tea leaves to indicate good success. Don't apply until the chicken bones suggest a good time for someone with your constitution. You are going up against a thousand other candidates more or less equally qualified for a highly vague job description and 350k base salary.
slowmovintarget 1 day ago||
Find non-Utilitarian alternative to Effective Altruism by somehow channeling Dostoevsky? Propriety and Reward?
rawgabbit 1 day ago||
Socrates argued if you believe something is evil and powerful people do evil then by definition they are not "powerful" -- they are just "evil". As a corollary, if you believe something is good and the people who do good happen to be the weakest members of society, by definition, they are "powerful" -- it is society that is messed up.
simongr3dal 1 day ago||
Getting the feeling that Socrates had a different definition for "powerful" than most.
skeledrew 1 day ago||
Philosophers in general tend to have a different (more profound) definition of things than others do.
dbuser99 1 day ago||
I suppose they should. That seems like the right, or at least a related, discipline for some of the questions raised by ai developments. But i cannot help but feel completely unenthusiastic about the idea of the AI labs controlling the narrative around societal impact of AI.
dgellow 1 day ago|
They need sociologist of the goal is to mitigate societal impact, not philosophers
elphinstone 1 day ago||
Well that PR is cheaper than buying Johnny Ives for $6 billion. You could probably buy an entire Ivy League philosophy department for 60 million.
AlotOfReading 1 day ago|
The AI price inflation is unreal. Used to be that you could get the grad students doing all the actual work for the price of a pizza party and alcohol.
maxaw 1 day ago||
Given the the labs are trying to create [super] human-like consciousness, partly through the guidance of huge system prompts, and many philosophers are experts in textual descriptions of consciousness it makes sense
ProllyInfamous 1 day ago|
I just read an entire book about consciousness [0], and now I understand myself even less.

[0] <https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousn...>

My key takeaway was this: I feel, therefore I am; not sure if any more conscious than plants.

skeledrew 1 day ago||
You also communicate with others (not-you). You know that there are others because you can gain knowledge from them, which you didn't have before. And in that knowledge lies awareness of your self and consciousness.
vkou 1 day ago||
Plants also communicate with others and gain knowledge from them.

Is an elm also conscious?

skeledrew 1 day ago||
Can't really make a determination on that as we can't communicate with an elm and have a "heart to heart" talk with it.
ProllyInfamous 6 hours ago||
Read The Hidden Life of Trees [0]

[0] <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discove...>

Elm definitely have heart to hearts with each other. If we watch them on a long-enough timeline, they definitely set and achieve goals (for themselves and others).

----

In my previous book recommendation (Pollan) there is a chapter on plants observed in timelapse/FFW, which have been able to effectively "remember solved mazes" (not exactly, but neat studies/equivalents) – similar to slime molds (as described in Entangled Life [1]).

[1] <https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/...>

skeledrew 2 hours ago||
Books don't work for things like this. Where are the papers? Start with actual science, exhaust all avenues on that and then the philosophy can be approached.
andy99 1 day ago||
I wonder what it is they feel LLMs can’t do for them and they need a human for? I’d like to see the spec, like are they expecting the philosophers to use Claude all day, maybe in a philosophy harness and will be judged by their token use? Or have they isolated to high value philosophy task that they’ll work on without using AI? I think it would be interesting to contrast with developers and understand how vs philosophers they are seen differently. How much of philosophy is boilerplate vs original thinking and how does it compare to writing software?
samrus 1 day ago|
I think its to identify the capabilities and possibilities (and limitations) for genAI. LLMs can do intellectual grunt work very well, but they dont think, not really, so they cant ideate and design things that havent been built before, like themselves
jameslk 1 day ago|
I'm highly anticipating the answer to the great question of life, the universe, and everything

On a more serious note, I found this interesting from TFA:

> The biggest question, though, is what sorts of rules should be put in those constitutions in the first place. Philosophers have zeroed in on two main ethical frameworks. One is deontology. Popular with Kant, among others, this imposes strict rules that prohibit things like lying, coercion and treating people as a means rather than an end, even if it is for a greater good. Anthropic’s constitution incorporates many deontological strictures. These can make AI behaviour more consistent, says Dr Powers—a plus for deploying robots in homes and public spaces.

> The other approach to ethics of interest to philosophers of AI is called consequentialism. It weighs costs against benefits to decide what to do. Models more sympathetic to consequentialism include OpenAI’s ChatGPT and Google’s Gemini. Google’s AI models are designed to produce “likely overall benefits [that] substantially outweigh the foreseeable risks”, a classic consequentialist goal.

As a big fan of the trolley problem thought experiment, I am very curious what led to this ethical split between these model makers. I find it darkly humorous and also scary to think about the choices these models could make to influence people and decisions, especially if it's under a utilitarian perspective

MichaelDickens 1 day ago||
The trolley problem is probably the most famous thought experiment in ethics, but it doesn't do a good job of distinguishing ethical theories. Both utilitarianism and Kantian deontology agree that it's correct (or at least permissible) to flip the switch. The Kantian argument is that you are not treating the one person merely as a means—you save the five via the second track, and they would still be saved even if the one person wasn't present.

There's a sort of intuitionist deontology that says it is wrong to ever perform an action that causes someone to die, but only 13% of philosophers[1] say you shouldn't switch, compared to 63% who say you should.

[1] https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/4922

bigbuppo 1 day ago||
I'm sure there are effective altruists on one side of the split and not the other.
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