Top
Best
New

Posted by Audiophilip 2 days ago

Thomann takes legal action against Fender(www.thomann.de)
203 points | 140 commentspage 2
TrackerFF 2 days ago|
The problem is that after their original patent expired, they sat on their hands for too long. By the time they tried to trademark in 2008/2009, their bodies were considered generic in the US. Gibson, on the other hand, did what Fender should have done and applied for trademark (for their Les Paul body) back in the late 80s.

Now other brands are eating their lunch, and Fender is seemingly trying a last hail marry to get this settled. My guess is that if they manage to get a positive ruling in Europe, they'll somehow try to use that as case for US courts.

vondur 2 days ago|
"My guess is that if they manage to get a positive ruling in Europe, they'll somehow try to use that as case for US courts." That's exactly what they have done, they sued a Chinese company that was making knock-off Strat copies and selling them in Germany. Fender sued them, the Chinese company was a no show and Fender took that as a win to go after PRS who is selling a John Mayer Strat style guitar.
lambdaone 2 days ago||
A win that, as I understand it, did not actually set a precedent and is thus of no actual legal use to them.
vondur 1 day ago||
I would agree with you. I don’t think it will be enough for them to win in the US.
codedokode 2 days ago||
On a side note, think how conservative music world is, if people are still manufacturing and successfully sell guitar designed in 50s. You can probably take a 50s guitar and connect to a modern amp, or take a modern guitar and connect to a 50s amp and it will work.

Compare this, for example, to smartphone chargers or headphones and their compatibility.

vitally3643 2 days ago||
Smartphone chargers had legitimate reason to change. Higher power, faster data, and we learned the hard way that micro usb and all the proprietary connectors before it were fundamentally physically flawed.

Audio hasn't changed at all in the last two centuries. An analog audio signal is fundamental physics and there's nothing to gain or change or improve in any meaningful sense. TRS/phono jacks likewise are just so brute force stupid and rugged that there was never a reason to change.

The connectors and interfaces never changed because the underlying signals never changed because there's nothing to change. Digial electronics on the other hand legitimately have gone through real and worthwhile changes, and been radically redefined many times in the last 60 years.

wink 1 day ago||
Mini USB was clunky, but how was it flawed? Unless you count data transfer rates as physical. Never seen one break.
ben7799 2 days ago|||
This is completely true, and there's a good reason.

Almost everything anyone has tried to do to modernize electric guitars in a non-compatible way has had big downsides.

Almost any guitar with a pre-amp or whatever built into it that would allow it to use a cable like an XLR cable ends up needing batteries in the guitar, which then introduce a maintenance/failure point. And very often efforts to introduce this stuff haven't sounded great.

The only place this has kind of changed is super high gain guitars for metal. They are more likely to use active pickups, they'll have a battery, but they still use standard cabling for compatibility.

Anything that is modernized ends up being more expensive and harder to work on yourself. A basic guitar like a Strat or Tele has incredibly simple electronics and is super easy for any guitar player to learn to fix themselves, and most of the parts inside are super cheap. And it all just works really well.

And the audience never cares, they care about the notes you choose to play and the message the musician cares to get across.

HardwareLust 2 days ago|||
Oh yeah, you can plug a guitar made in the 50's to an amp that was made yesterday and vice versa with zero issues.
sampo 2 days ago|||
> You can probably

No need for "probably". That absolutely works.

Rendello 2 days ago||
"Who says you need to buy a guitar?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_F7aiOvdwE

(technically a "diddley bow": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diddley_bow)

quickthrowman 2 days ago|||
Sometimes engineers find the optimal or near optimal design early on in the life of a technology. Jet airplanes haven’t changed much since the 1960s.
BigTTYGothGF 2 days ago|||
Consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius
analog31 2 days ago||
As an amusing aside, Stradivarius could not have known how his fiddles would sound today. Most of them have been modernized, with new necks and bass bar, and some other tweaks. Most are played with metal or synthetic strings, and modern bows.
nemomarx 2 days ago||
why would the connector need to change? nothing has come out that's really better for analog signals
vitally3643 2 days ago|||
I do find it hilarious that the phono jack appeared fully formed and hasn't changed in a hundred years. We got the smaller flavors of TRS sure, but the big honking quarter inch phono jack has stayed exactly the same. Perfect design in one go, no notes.
kevin_thibedeau 2 days ago||
They were originally ball-ended. Some refinement has happened.
jcarrano 1 day ago||||
If signals were based on low impedance current loops as opposed to voltage-based like they are today, interference could be much reduced. This would break phantom power, so power to preamps would have to be send through another set of conductors, which would make the design of the electronics easier as well as safer.

Of course, none of this will ever happen.

zokier 2 days ago|||
xlr?
recursive 2 days ago||
It's not really better. And no, it's not inherently balanced. TRS can carry a balanced signal. I've seen a mixer that had TRS balanced mono outputs.
qwery 2 days ago||
Even if you think Fender is solely responsible for the design, which is frankly ridiculous, the bloody thing's been around forever and now they're suing?

Having a court stop actual counterfeits -- sure, nobody has a problem with that. That's not what this is.

Then there was the headstock thing, Fender was notorious for pursuing makers of guitars with headstocks that had any resemblance to the Strat headstock. Let's ignore how limited the design space is considering the constraints of six strings - six tuners at the end of a narrow strip of timber. Fender was obviously acting in an anti-competitive way at that point. At the same time, the quality of their own products continued to drop. Coincidence?

Now they are going after anything that looks like an electric guitar.

The general "S-style" body form, as popularised/iconified by the Stratocaster is popular for many reasons. A lot of those reasons (I would say most) are practical/functional.

Fender shouldn't be allowed to possess the shape, let alone use it as an anti-competitive weapon in order to coast along for another century just because the brand happens to come with some notable IP.

Fender's monopoly over the shape shouldn't be protected by law/courts. Here's why:

It's a functional design -- a matter of ergonomics and practicality. For a lot of guitarists, the S body style is the most effective, comfortable shape to play.

For a concrete example of an "iconic", yet clearly functional design feature: the top point of the "S" is where the front strap hook is. Having this point protrude forwards (along the neck) helps balance the weight and this provides the player with physical control over the mass of the guitar.

Many of the subtle features of Stratocaster body are obvious practical improvements -- it's the result of filing down sharp edges that were noticed when attempting the play the instrument. Imagine you're starting from a classical acoustic design, what steps would you take to make it more playable and make it electric at the same time?

It's an incremental design built on forms that have been used by luthiers for centuries. It's not a Fender shape -- it's an (electric) guitar shape.

okanat 2 days ago||
No such contempt has one against another in Western culture as much as politicians have against their constituents, and trendsetter companies against the cultural heritage they helped to create.
insaneirish 2 days ago||
In one fell swoop, Fender destroyed every bit of musician goodwill they had. For right or for wrong (and I think for wrong), their claims are baseless.

I wish them (and their PE overlords) a powerful defeat, ideally in a court of law, but if not, in the court of public opinion.

worik 2 days ago||
I am confused. What is this about?
dofm 2 days ago||
1) Fender got someone in Germany to buy a Strat type guitar from a Chinese vendor on Aliexpress and ship it to Germany (I assume this part)

2) Fender sued said small Chinese Aliexpress vendor in a regional German court for selling a "copied" design in Germany

3) The small Chinese guitar vendor didn't turn up, obviously

4) Fender got a default judgement that the S-type (Stratocaster etc.) guitar body shape (which has indisputably been in the public domain in the USA since 2009) is a "functional work of art" in which they have copyright.

5) Fender's weird law firm went on a rampage, in the EU and USA, using said default judgement as if it represents some kind of precedent, warning guitar firms (PRS included) and music retailers to stop selling them, recall and destroy their inventory on sale in the EU, and confirm they had done so, or be sued

6) guitar people, especially luthiers working in the USA who have solid reason to believe the S shape is public domain, took that about as well as you'd expect

7) Fender tried to walk it back, especially the bit about smashing perfectly good guitars

8) Thomann, based in Germany, certainly Fender's largest retailer outside the USA and one of the biggest music retailers in the world, have decided not to take it lying down.

lompad 2 days ago|||
This really reads like some american lawyer used an llm and never questioned whether legal precedent is even a thing in germany aside from the highest courts.

Have seen several like this in the last months, though in much more niche areas and with barely any publicity.

dofm 2 days ago||
The law firm is Bird and Bird, and they are not that small.

So the whole thing really looks like legal bullying.

The S-type body shape has been in the public domain in the USA since 2009. One of the luthiers that Fender sent a C&D has hired the lawyer who secured that 2009 judgement against Fender, and he has been quite withering.

Fender have a huge uphill struggle here, and they clearly do not understand just how much time hobby guitarists with money spend watching Youtube. Big mistake.

eigenspace 2 days ago||||
This is extra bizarre to me, because for most purposes German law doesnt operate on a system of "legal precedent" the way countries which adopted the UK model do.

Am I missing something about Germany following a precedent system for patent/copyright or something, or is this even dumber than it sounds?

dofm 2 days ago|||
It's that dumb.

Sorry, I rushed through my comment and perhaps didn't make it clear.

They have a default judgement only. But they used it to demand US-based manufacturers recall European-bound inventory, destroy it and certify it destroyed.

Even though they know full well that inventory can legally be sold in the USA — which is part of the near-comical gaslighting walkback the FMIC CEO attempted the other day. They are already admitting it's not a USA thing.

eigenspace 2 days ago||
Yikes. I guess we'll find out in a couple months that Fender had replaced their legal department with ChatGPT 3 or something.
12_throw_away 2 days ago|||
As a legal theory, "this default judgement against an anonymous AliExpress seller is binding on literally everyone in the world" kinda reminds me of the Dune nft bros' "we bought a book about Dune and therefore now own the intellectual property rights to Dune."

Except this one is apparently coming from actual accredited lawyers? (Who knows, I'm not a lawyer, maybe it really does work that way and Fender is the first company to figure out how to exploit this)

dofm 2 days ago||
If it does work that way then this is going to get very funny, isn't it?

https://gettrumpguitars.com

Because the only way Trump Guitars can sell an LP-type guitar to US customers is that Gibson also lost a body-shape case like this (to Washburn, if I remember right?)

lokar 2 days ago||||
For (1), not a fender style, a straight up counterfeit
dofm 2 days ago||
Quite likely, I have not seen the specific detail.

But the thing is, if the counterfeit had a Fender logo and a Fender Strat style headstock, they could simply have used trademarks to deal with that — because they do have internationally recognised trademarks and the specific headstock shape is one.

They instead claimed something rather more broad and contentious that has not been tested in court in the EU but is fully at odds with 17 years of guitar industry business built on a legal finding in the USA.

A cynic would say that FMIC knew the vendor would not turn up and fight.

_def 2 days ago|||
aliexpress? Thomann themselves are big in manufacturing guitars in china.
ahofmann 2 days ago||
They didn't sued Thomann and they didn't show up. They sued some Chinese guy who didn't show up and used that default judgement against everyone including Thomann.
dofm 2 days ago||
Fascinating isn't it, considering Thomann, a major seller of Chinese-manufactured S-type guitars, was right there
wander_homer 2 days ago||
Fender recently won a case in a german court, from which they assumed to own the copyright to the famous Stratocaster guitar shape. They then sent out cease and desist letters to many manufacturers who build and sell such guitars in Europe, asking them to destroy their inventory, etc. Among those manufacturers was PRS and also Thomann, which are now taking legal action against that.
nosioptar 5 days ago||
I've always hated Fender. This pig fuckers used to charge about 50% extra for a lefty guitar, assuming you didnt want something like a Jazzmaster, which wasn't available in lefty for decades.

Worse part is that lefty fenders always have something fucked because they put zero care into them, despite charging a premium for them.

Fender doesnt even make a good product. I've pulled strat style guitars out of dumpsters that were better than a fender.

kgwxd 5 days ago||
Good luck, but they've already destroyed the name, all they have left to make money is IP, pretty sure they're only focused on this.
karim79 2 days ago||
I have two strats. Both signature editions. Ed O'Brien and Mark Speer edition. I also have a fender accoustic which is perhaps my most favouritist guitar ever. I fucking love fender and will forever.
j4kp07 2 days ago|
[dead]
More comments...