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Posted by mooreds 3 hours ago

Mag 7 starting to underperform [pdf](www.apollo.com)
150 points | 120 comments
throw0101d 3 hours ago|
Historically stocks that had a good run then tended to underperform:

> […] Since 1926, the median ten-year return on individual U.S. stocks relative to the broad equity market is –7.9%, underperforming by 0.82% per year. For stocks that have been among the top 20% performers over the previous five years, the median ten-year market-adjusted return falls to –17.8%, underperforming by 1.94% per year. Since the end of World War II, the median ten-year market-adjusted return of recent winners has been negative for 93% of the time. The case for diversifying concentrated positions in individual stocks, particularly in recent market winners, is even stronger than most investors realize.

* https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4541122

dheera 2 hours ago||
> Historically stocks that had a good run then tended to underperform

This is more of a mathematical axiom than a financial effect, because you're defining "underperform/overperform" with respect to an average that contains them.

throw0101d 4 minutes ago|||
> This is more of a mathematical axiom than a financial effect, because you're defining "underperform/overperform" with respect to an average that contains them.

Most stocks suck:

> We study long-run shareholder outcomes for over 64,000 global common stocks during the January 1990 to December 2020 period. We document that the majority, 55.2% of U.S. stocks and 57.4% of non-U.S. stocks, underperform one-month U.S. Treasury bills in terms of compound returns over the full sample. Focusing on aggregate shareholder outcomes, we find that the top-performing 2.4% of firms account for all of the $US 75.7 trillion in net global stock market wealth creation from 1990 to December 2020. Outside the US, 1.41% of firms account for the $US 30.7 trillion in net wealth creation.

* https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3710251

> Four out of every seven common stocks that have appeared in the CRSP database since 1926 have lifetime buy-and-hold returns less than one-month Treasuries. When stated in terms of lifetime dollar wealth creation, the best-performing four percent of listed companies explain the net gain for the entire U.S. stock market since 1926, as other stocks collectively matched Treasury bills. These results highlight the important role of positive skewness in the distribution of individual stock returns, attributable both to skewness in monthly returns and to the effects of compounding. The results help to explain why poorly-diversified active strategies most often underperform market averages.

* https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2900447

And this certainly can have a financial effect on your finances: having the "wrong" stocks in your portfolio (i.e., most of them) and not have the "correct" ones will mean a (e.g.) comfortable retirement or not.

gruez 41 minutes ago|||
>> Historically stocks that had a good run then tended to underperform

>because you're defining "underperform/overperform" with respect to an average that contains them.

Why is this true? For instance, if you're comparing the GDP growth of countries in the G7, why is it that one country (eg. US) can't consistently overperform year after year?

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...

Or if you want make it even more clear, you can construct a index consisting of two countries: a normal country (eg. US) and a basketcase (eg. DRC):

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...

antoinealb 25 minutes ago||
Shouldn't you look at the YoY change instead, to compare to stock returns ? Otherwise that's like comparing market cap, and then it is obvious that a big company tends to stay big.
gruez 1 minute ago||
>Shouldn't you look at the YoY change instead, to compare to stock returns ?

This might work for the G7 case, but not the US vs DRC case, where it's an obvious case of sloping up vs sloping down. Granted, the case is contrived, but the original claim was that it was an "mathematical axiom", so it should still hold.

M3L0NM4N 2 hours ago||
I mean these stocks have been performers for decades. If you posted this 10 years ago you'd look really wrong.
throw0101d 21 minutes ago|||
> I mean these stocks have been performers for decades. If you posted this 10 years ago you'd look really wrong.

And Japan performed ridiculously well for over decades and then stagnated for decades after that, but it averaged out between the two periods:

> Ben Carlson: It's just a really long mean reversion. You got like 22% per year from 1970 to 1989 in Japan. Small caps in Japan did 30% per year for two decades.

> It's insane. The returns almost had to be poor after that. If you put them together, the boom with the bust, it's like almost 9% per year.

> It's kind of crazy. Over 50 years, the long-term worked. It's just that over that 20 or 30-year period, it didn't work so well.

* https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/412 (~4m20s)

Annualized 9% per year is pretty good: the S&P 500 has average 10% since 1957 (70 years). Is there anything preventing US equities from doing the same thing: great performance from 2010 until now, and then 10+ years of stagnation starting (theoretically) tomorrow. If you look at 2000s S&P 500 you got zero returns, and the only thing that would have saved a US domestic (only) investor was having a bond allocation:

* https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2010/09/13/its-not-real...

This is why diversification is important. People talk about "US stocks" doing well, but have US industrials done better than non-US industrials? US finances or energy done better than non-US? Or are "US stocks" doing better simply because tech stocks specifically have done better? Perhaps a US allocation is really a tech sector play:

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/should-your-portfolio-be-100-us...

Lerc 2 hours ago|||
Yes, but when their run ends they tend to underperform.

Every time.

nvme0n1p1 2 hours ago|||
If a stock market observation has no predictive power, then it's worthless.

I look forward to your weather report too: "It's always sunny outside until one day it starts raining. Every time."

tjwebbnorfolk 2 hours ago||||
ye, the stock market isn't magic, it's just a collection of what people think. and people can be very wrong in a big way.
nradov 2 hours ago||||
Buddy I think you missed the joke.
EA-3167 34 minutes ago||||
Not at all, if someone tells me that "This stock is historically likely to regress to and beyond the mean," it's information I can use to evaluate my risk tolerance. Just because a piece of information doesn't let you time the market like a psychic doesn't make it worthless, it's just not what you were looking for.
andrewstuart2 2 hours ago|||
Off topic, but I love your username.
tjwebbnorfolk 2 hours ago||
hey he hacked my computer his user has a home folder inside of /dev
eternal_braid 2 hours ago||||
Many people who replied to you seem to have missed your joke. I appreciated it.
Lerc 2 hours ago||
It is my curse.

Years ago, My daughter's science teacher said that school should teach a love of learning.

I replied 'I thought the point of school was to make productive worker units in society'

And while he explained to me why I was wrong I was thinking to myself 'great, now he thinks I'm a terrible person'

It seems I deadpan too effectively.

bluGill 4 minutes ago|||
Productive workers in society need to learn new things all the time. I can't think of any career that hasn't changed in my life. I recall a garbage man (sexism probably wasn't required even then, but I never recall females) hanging off the back of the truck while the driver drove to the next house - the driver today needs to know how to operate the arm on the truck that lifts my can. Fast food used to be cooked within 10 minutes of when it was thrown, now they obviously are keeping things warm for a lot longer.
rightbyte 19 minutes ago|||
Poe's law apply to real life too.
ertgbnm 2 hours ago||||
Once you lose, you have lost. Ok, but how does that help us predict when something will lose?
nradov 1 hour ago||
Yes, it is predictive. But only retroactively.
c22 1 hour ago||||
Sometimes people bring me things that are broken 'cause I like to fix stuff. They always say "it was just working!"
davedx 1 hour ago||||
Tautologies 'R us
pkilgore 2 hours ago||||
well I laughed
ohyes 2 hours ago|||
“When the stocks don’t go up they don’t match the market which generally goes up”
zerobees 2 hours ago||
I am invested in some of the companies that are downstream of the capital expenditures of Big Tech (e.g., COHR), so I have nothing to complain about.

I am really struggling to see what's the investment thesis behind Google valuation increasing 2x in response to AI, though. Assuming no magical AGI singularity, by the end of the day, they're still selling the same services, but the services have gotten more expensive for them to provide. Everyone was already using Google Search, but now, provisioning AI summaries on top of requires more compute. Everyone was already using Google Docs and Meet, but now, AI features cost Google more. Etc, etc.

The only place where they stand to make money is selling AI compute to enterprises. But with the current supply-chain challenges, the margins there are probably getting thinner.

haberdasher 2 hours ago||
`I am really struggling to see what's the investment thesis behind Google valuation increasing 2x in response to AI`

Google is basically Nvdia (TPUs), Tesla (Waymo Self-Driving), Hyperscaler, Netflix (YouTube) and a massive VC (Anthropic, Databricks, SpaceX, etc.) all rolled into one.

Their valuation isn't really a 2x'ing so much as a reversion from halving.

cik 2 hours ago||
It's frequently said that vonglomerates usually carry through as their valuation, the multiplier of the lowest holding. If that's the case, Alphabet is worth more broken up. Similarly that makes their current valuation (and nay any valuation) theoretically too low.
scarmig 6 minutes ago|||
Google has a compelling story for many AI scenarios: it has lots of outs. It's the only frontier lab for which that's true. A massive bubble bursting wouldn't be existential for Google; it would be quite painful, but survivable, and even offers some potential upside (picking up assets and researchers from the wrecked, mangled corpses of other frontier labs on the cheap).
Legend2440 36 minutes ago|||
>Assuming no magical AGI singularity, by the end of the day, they're still selling the same services, but the services have gotten more expensive for them to provide.

Well, they're hoping to sell new services on expensive $200/month subscriptions.

The hope is that agents have more value than traditional software, because they do the work for you instead of just enabling you to do the work.

nradov 2 hours ago|||
The investment thesis is a torrent of cash arriving to index funds and retirement target date funds has to go somewhere.
blehn 1 hour ago|||
Google is a good bet because if AI continues to boom, they're in a good position (frontier lab, vertically integrated). If the bubble bursts and the frontier labs fail, they might do even better.
epolanski 2 hours ago|||
I know several non tech companies that use Gemini and NotebookLM heavily (banks, insurance, consulting).
senordevnyc 2 hours ago|||
Google is a money printing machine, and their Q1 revenue and profit were up significantly vs last year.
solumunus 2 hours ago||
The market runs on memes, hype and fraud. Fundamentals haven’t mattered for a long time.
neogodless 8 minutes ago|||
You're half right.

The market sets prices, and they are set based on multiple things. One of those is fundamentals. Consider the value of assets, whether tangible or intellectual property, human resources, binding contracts, etc. that add up to reasonable revenue forecasts and so forth.

And the other aspect of prices is based on conjecture, speculation, meme-joiners, believing hype, and in some cases, fraud.

The secret sauce is always going to be the one who can figure out, between the two factors going into price, what's right, and when.

BUT... just saying that all stock market pricing is based on unreliable factors? That's not a useful, actionable statement. You can certainly stay out of investing in that market, but is that going to be your best course of action?

senordevnyc 2 hours ago|||
I guess Google’s Q1 earnings of $62 billion were just hype.
ponkpanda 2 hours ago||
Yes, earnings are essentially hype/BS.

Focus on cash/cashflow.

kaonwarb 17 minutes ago||
$64B trailing twelve months free cash flow. (https://s206.q4cdn.com/479360582/files/doc_financials/2026/q...)
bwfan123 3 hours ago||
I like that the invisible hand of market is slapping the Mag-7 for capex which is the only way to discipline them. Investors are waking up to say: hey, you are spending all your profits on data-centers, where is the return for me ? But, it surprises me that there are vast pools of capital which we collectively call the "market" that makes these calculations, or maybe a simpler causal explanation is the missing stock repurchase bid. At some point, one of the hyperscalers (msft ?) will break from the pack and announce reductions to capex and increase stock repurchases to stem the decline.
ares623 3 hours ago|
Why is Apple included though?
twoodfin 18 minutes ago|||
You can simultaneously believe that the hyperscalers are becoming capital-intensive long-term in a way that’s bad for their profits and that as a result will be raising the COGS of Apple’s business in a way that also hurts profits.
eitally 2 hours ago||||
My perception is that the market lumps companies together into sectors whether they have similar business models or not. When one is punished, other associated firms tend to be, too. You see this in any industry (not as a guaranteed rule, but in general).
DaedalusII 1 hour ago||||
because $100bn annual revenue, high FCF, high margin. Its a monster.
tomrod 3 hours ago|||
Share repurchases also aren't great I guess?
TravisJamison 2 hours ago||
Markets generally love buybacks.

The market is both happy that Apple didn’t spend all its cash on AI build-out, but also at the same time angry that Apple is “missing AI”.

Not to mention the grumblings that Apple has peaked.

mixedbit 2 hours ago||
Could outperformance of largest cap companies be partially explained by dividends paid by smaller caps? Reasoning behind this:

* Index investing raises in popularity, with index funds that automatically reinvest dividends being often preferred due to their tax efficiency.

* Large caps prefer to repurchase stocks, stock repurchases contribute fully towards a given company share price increase.

* Smaller caps still pay dividends, these dividends are then reinvested by index funds and the reinvestment is weighted by capitalization, so large caps share price benefits more from repurchases done with dividend cash paid by smaller caps. When dividend is paid, share price of a company that paid it is reduced, which further widens the performance gap between large and smaller caps.

gruez 39 minutes ago|
>* Large caps prefer to repurchase stocks, stock repurchases contribute fully towards a given company share price increase.

That doesn't work because indices are typically market cap weighted. A stock buyback might increase nominal stock prices, but not the market cap, otherwise it'd be a free money machine.

jnwatson 2 hours ago||
While I agree with other comments indicating that the headline is drawing on a small period of data, other data in the deck is pretty compelling.

Page 25 "The number of data centers in the US" gives an interesting insight as to the magnitude of the data center boom. 60% more data centers are being planned or are under construction. This might actually be underselling it in dollar amount, as I believe the average data center size under construction is larger than the average data center already constructed.

Page 27 "Cyclically adjusted P/E ratio near all-time highs" is certainly concerning and points to a near term correction.

mattas 2 hours ago||
Apollo should be smart enough to know that you can't draw any conclusions from 1 month of market data (especially when there was a big, relevant IPO).
bradfa 2 hours ago||
Right, but they're smart enough to know how to manipulate the market short term with such "research" and then take advantage of it, all without breaking the law.
jackb4040 2 hours ago|||
I'm astoundingly unimpressed by the quality of this slide deck. There's no analysis except that crammed into slide titles, like it's designed to bombard a room full of analysts with so many graphs that they shut off their critical thinking. Could a freshman business student not make this? Could a freshman business student with an LLM not make something more convincing than this?

I agree with the headline, but this really feels like analysis-slop. It's only remarkable in terms of who is publicizing it.

mattas 2 hours ago||
This was my reaction, as well. It's almost entirely technical analysis mumbo jumbo.
vb-8448 2 hours ago||
Actually it's almost 2 months /s
Danox 2 hours ago||
Nothing wrong, necessarily, but Tesla doesn’t belong to that seven they never have.
abirch 2 hours ago|
What TSLA lacks in cashflow, they more than make-up in TAM. Make-up as in create out of thin air. We'll have self driving cars in a few months, robots, semi-trucks, etc., etc.
flowerthoughts 2 hours ago|||
Elon is missing the bigger TAM here. Once they've created a time machine, they can not only sell all these things backwards and forwards in time, they can also start making industrialization come way earlier, which will lead to exponentially turbo charged growth. Plus importing future designs into the now.

It makes sense to focus all effort into building a time machine.

ajmurmann 2 hours ago||||
Always a few months away. The nuclear fusion of products portfolios.
duped 2 hours ago||||
Don't forget that no auto manufacturer in the world, and certainly not in China, is poised to capture any of that TAM.
jknoepfler 2 hours ago|||
Maybe they'll buy a failing AI company and update their grift portfolio.
gabriel-uribe 33 minutes ago||
So many chart crimes, but aside from that.

Seems like we're seeing margin get eaten up by companies upstream of the buildout, and the costs have not been fully passed downstream yet. Eg most consumers still get free/cheap AI.

It'll take a few years to see what happens at scale when prices go up and purchasing behavior changes. Hardware, services etc all downstream of the buildout and supply constraints.

gandalfgeek 3 hours ago||
6 months ago when Mag7 was overperforming everyone was worried about it being too high a fraction of the S&P500.
andxor 2 hours ago|
Exactly. As usual people are bullish at the top and bearish at the bottom.
jstanley 7 minutes ago||
Is this the bottom?
andxor 2 minutes ago||
You shouldn't take financial advice from me :)
TravisJamison 2 hours ago|
Markets are obviously, rationally, not happy about the overspending.

But what gives me pause is that a some of the mag 7 (think Meta) could change their mind on AI build-out tomorrow, and 1-year from now have the same amazing free cash flow they always did.

2748484848 1 hour ago||
I don't think most people quite grasp the sheer size of the debt obligations Meta and specially Oracle have gotten into. Meta has done some clever tricks to keep it off the main books, but it IS there. If no AGI, its gonna drag them down for a decade.
infecto 2 hours ago||
I tend to agree. I suspect if we look back a few years from now that there was some overspending but I still believe the risk of not investing and missing out is greater than the current historical trend of capex spend. I have not looked recently but has demand of compute started to slow down. It was just a few months ago when companies like Anthropic were throttling users because there was not enough of it.
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