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Posted by Kaapeine 3 hours ago

24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)(people.xiph.org)
60 points | 87 commentspage 2
rz2k 1 hour ago|
My good enough amplifier and DAC combo claims up to 24bit/192kHz, I use a cheap optical interface from my computer that claims up to 32bit/192kHz, and the streaming service I use serves most albums at 24bit/44.1kHz.

It would have cost the same for the entire stack to be 16bit/44.1kHz at every step, but with excessive resolution I can control the volume anywhere. The bits right before the analog conversion at the end are essentially the same whether I turn down the volume in the software player, the operating system, or the DAC/amplifier.

HelloUsername 2 hours ago||
(2012) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3668310 316 comments

(2014) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8689231 424 comments

(2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10520639 228 comments

(2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15127633 428 comments

(2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19318898 314 comments

me551ah 2 hours ago||
Nobody downloads music these days and everybody just streams. Audio at 24 bit still takes a small fraction of the bandwidth that 1080p video takes, so I don’t understand the hate for it.

I use a DAC by focusrite which can do 24-bit, and if I want to listen to higher fidelity audio on my planer headphones then I should be able to. Why should I limit myself to 16-bit

mingus88 1 hour ago|
Counterpoint: bandcamp is doing well. Vinyl sales are doing well.

If I like an artist that I find on streaming, I buy an LP and get a lossless download for free. I still have a music library and I will never rent my favorite music.

Artists prefer to connect directly with their fans and BC is probably the best platform for people who care to pay and support acts directly. They have high res downloads and I import them.

glimshe 2 hours ago||
Just get one of those "hi fi" valve amplifiers from Amazon you see under $100. The valve already distorts the sound, so you don't need to bother paying more for low distortion anywhere else in the audio chain. Saved you thousands of dollars, done!
PcChip 2 hours ago||
I'm curious if the audio was being sent bit-perfect to the DAC for all of these tests (ALSA direct), or if it was being run through the audio mixer and being resampled

I can always tell if my 44.1 songs are being resampled to 48 because they're being run through the OS mixer

dist-epoch 2 hours ago|
Proper audio resampling should not be identifiable. Of course, the OS mixer probably doesn't do proper (CPU expensive) resampling.

But a quality audio player should account for this and do it's own.

PcChip 30 minutes ago|||
I'm also one of those audiophile crazies that obsesses over which metals to use in cabling, power filtering, swapping opamps, and builds their own DACs, amps, and speakers
rasz 1 hour ago|||
"proper" resampling was expensive in 1997 when Intel was introducing fixed sampling AC'97, but was below noise floor of CPU load meter in 2007 when Microsoft released Vista killing hardware mixing.
LarsAlereon 1 hour ago||
The main benefit for me is that digital watermarking becomes completely inaudible with high-res audio, but I can sometimes clearly hear it in standard resolution.
hackingonempty 2 hours ago||
@xiphmont also made an amazing video response to the many responses he received to this article. Using analog equipment he busts a bunch of myths and demonstrates what really happens with digital audio.

https://video.xiph.org/vid2.shtml

or on YT if you can't play it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

speak_on 2 hours ago||
At a minimum, anything above 16/44.1 requires far more than just files: monitors, a treated room, listening position, DAC, etc... but most importantly - a trained ear. That last one is the most uncomfortable truth.
Blackthorn 2 hours ago||
Are you, per chance, a dog posting on the internet? Since 44.1khz sample rate is already past the range of the human ear, regardless of training.
MertsA 2 hours ago|||
You need at least twice the frequency range for sample rate in order to represent the original signal. That's slightly misleading though, that's from the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theory and it's a mathematical fact but that is true for exact numerical samples, once you add in quantization that muddies the water a bit. Taken at the extreme, it's straightforward to see why a 1 bit quantization per sample at 44.1 kHz would not capture a perfect representation of some analog signal even if there's only a 1 kHz frequency component to the signal. If we instead decide to sample at 10 MHz but still one bit quantization, now that 1 kHz frequency component can be much more accurately represented even though we're still using the worst quantization possible. Don't think of quantization like a square wave or a step pattern, think of it as "the signal is closer to here than any other discrete value".

Now in terms of realistic audio encoding, 16 bit at 44.1 kHz is designed to be a faithful representation as far as human hearing is concerned. Can someone with a trained ear potentially tell the difference between that and 24 bit at 192 kHz? In a studio environment it's possible. Most audiophile claims are dubious and a blind A/B test catches them out on most of it but the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem does not directly apply to quantized samples, it's about exact samples and with quantization, sampling rate is intertwined somewhat with the quantization depth.

move-on-by 2 hours ago||||
I don’t have great hearing, so I’m not sure I can really weigh in here (thanks punk concerts in my teens). I remember similar arguments around screens and 60Hz vs ‘the human eye’. I think a lot of people, myself included, can easily perceive the difference between 60Hz and something higher- given the right conditions. I would not be so quick to disregard claims of more sensitive hearing.
clawlor 2 hours ago|||
Max representable frequency is half the sampling rate (nyquist-shannon theorem), which is still a bit above normal but IIRC the extra headroom has something to do with eliminating aliasing
Blackthorn 2 hours ago||
Indeed. And what is the max frequency that a human can hear?
Rotundo 2 hours ago||
Depends on age of the listener, on average, 30 to 50 year olds hear a maximum frequency of 14 to 16 kHz.
Blackthorn 2 hours ago||
Right. Which are quite below 1/2 of 44.1k!
UtopiaPunk 2 hours ago|||
If you want to hear the difference between an audio file recorded at 44.1 and 88.2kHZ, then you need slow the audio playback down. Otherwise, a trained ear cannot physically hear the difference.
scns 2 hours ago||
A treated room would be the most impactful, DACs the least.
yellowapple 2 hours ago||
The DAC is pretty impactful if it's outright incapable of outputting anything beyond the usual 48kHz :)
dijit 3 hours ago||
huh...

So I guess the programmer equivalent is distributing .pdb's (or, symbols)

Blackthorn 2 hours ago|
Pretty good analogy. Thing is though, the person who receives the 16-bit, 44.1khz music file can always upsample it to 192khz and not lose anything in the process (heck, lots of audio stuff oversamples internally to this level or beyond, for extra aliasing headroom!). I'm not sure about expansion from 16bit to 24bit though, downward expansion isn't necessarily perfect.
gizajob 2 hours ago||
You’d be adding 150khz and 8bits of nothing.
dist-epoch 2 hours ago|
The whole audiophile industry is built on stuff which doesn't make any sense

My favourite: "audiophile-grade" audio players which allocate a single continuous buffer of RAM into which they load/decode the whole .WAV/.FLAC file, because supposedly the CPU "jumping" between "fragmented audio" causes audible "jitter".

Of course, they don't know that what looks like continuous memory to user-code is probably discontinuous in kernel/physical RAM.

Didn't check in many years, I wonder if they created kernel level players to account for that, to have "true continuous memory"

platinumrad 2 hours ago||
Don't forget: "most players use malloc to get memory while new is the c++ method and sounds better."[1]

[1] https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/pcaudio/119979/

lmc 2 hours ago|||
> My favourite: "audiophile-grade" audio players which allocate a single contignuous buffer of RAM into which they load/decode the whole .WAV/.FLAC file, because supposedly the CPU "jumping" between "fragmented memory" causes audible "jitter".

Thanks for the laugh... this is absolutely bonkers. In case anyone is wondering, before sound hits our ears it has to go through a digital to analog conversion, which takes place on hardware independent of the CPU, operating with its own clock and buffers etc.

justsomehnguy 1 hour ago|||
Am486DX/100 was enough to decode and listen an MP3 at 22KHz (and maybe mono?) and was more than enough to listen for 44/16/2 PCM. It's 31 y.o. today.
wat10000 2 hours ago|||
In addition to that, while it is possible to hit a delay and run out of buffer because memory access is slow (the most obvious would be if the input got swapped to disk at an inopportune moment), but the audible effect is really obvious. This isn't some subtle "oh my music sounds ineffably worse" effect, it's "my computer is glitching and my music is unlistenable."
billyjobob 2 hours ago|||
I can tell when my CPU usage spikes because it causes a hum through my speakers, so this does not seem that far-fetched.
justsomehnguy 2 hours ago||
It's just means you have a shitty audio tract with not enough shielding. Move to SPDIF/TOSLINK.
bellowsgulch 2 hours ago||
The latter is probably true, but the former does actually happen, and it's easy to accidentally do--lossless or not.
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