Top
Best
New

Posted by weli 10 hours ago

Half-Baked Product(weli.dev)
1049 points | 313 comments
TrackerFF 5 hours ago|
One important part of the story is in the very beginning: The founder’s motivation. To become wealthy.

You see this in the startup world a lot. Founders with 5+ failed startups in different sectors, because said founder picked the fields mainly by doing some market analysis. Not domain expertise.

There’s then a big mismatch between what the founder thinks is possible, and what the domain expert thinks is possible.

The defense is of course that some people can do that - Musk did it, so why not?

Another defense is that blindingly naïve optimism is sometimes needed to move the needle, as the concept “that can’t be done” simply doesn’t exist to some people.

I’ve sat through some pitches like that, where it is very obvious that the founder/CEO has limited knowledge and expertise in what they’re pitching, where the product is limited, but their enthusiasm is off the charts.

EDIT: The very latest happened only a couple of weeks ago. A startup had reached out to my employer as they’re developing a platform in our domain. Higher ups liked what they’d seen, enough to arrange a real meeting.

Startup is only 3 months old, and the moment I opened the platform I recognized a vibecoded (likely using clause) platform identical to almost all other launched on a daily basis.

So I probed a bit about data sources, serious questions regarding security, etc. but the guy was pretty fluent in consultant (turns out he had worked as a management consultant before launching), and the CTO was just nodding along.

In the end they wanted our data, and promised the moon on features - but as mentioned, I’m sure the whole product was entirely vibecoded.

thih9 2 hours ago||
> they wanted our data, and promised the moon on features

I know a company that fits this so well that I almost want to check the names. It's older than 3 months though.

kekqqq 4 minutes ago||
I also know a company that fits this very well. I wonder how many such companies are out there.
smallnix 4 hours ago|||
> I’ve sat through some pitches like that, where it is very obvious that the founder/CEO has limited knowledge and expertise in what they’re pitching, where the product is limited, but their enthusiasm is off the charts.

And for all the talk of investing into people, what was your opinion?

lionkor 3 hours ago||
Not OP, but overconfidence is not a quality I would invest in.
sph 47 minutes ago||
You must not be from California
teiferer 3 hours ago|||
> The defense is of course that some people can do that - Musk did it, so why not?

If you think that Musk did his endeavors in order to become rich, you are likely mistaken.

trinari 3 hours ago||
What drives him then? Power?
hobofan 3 hours ago|||
Seeking approval. It's apparent from everything he posts on X + the memeing + the whole "I am a elite Path of Exile"-saga.
thih9 2 hours ago|||
Interesting, I didn't know; context:

> His character, at the impressive level of 95, reflected not only a significant time investment but also a high degree of expertise.

> Musk’s performance has sparked skepticism about whether he genuinely leveled and equipped his character himself.

> The prevailing sentiment in the gaming community is that Musk doesn’t typically invest much time in video games, but instead leverages gaming achievements to draw media attention.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Elon-Musk-embarrasses-himself-...

usefulcat 39 minutes ago||||
I think "self promotion" is a better description than "seeking approval".

IMO people who are seeking approval tend to not go out of their way to be assholes quite so often ("pedo guy" incident, for example).

Shacklz 1 hour ago||||
> + the whole "I am a elite Path of Exile"-saga

That was the most "the emperor wears no clothes"-moment I've ever witnessed in my life. I play more PoE than I care to admit, and it was obvious within mere seconds that he has absolutely no clue what's going on.

It was absolutely surreal to watch.

rustystump 15 minutes ago||
It started with d4 before poe and was painfully obvious then. Poe was just icing on the cake as it is not for the casual.

It is also so bizarre to brag about rankings for games where the grind to end game is a massive time sink. It wasnt like he was some LoL god where there is no grind only skill.

sph 45 minutes ago|||
> Seeking approval

Yea, that’s called narcissism. Their only drive in life is to be admired, and it’s much easier to lie and deceive to reach that goal, than doing something that’s truly praiseworthy

sscaryterry 3 hours ago||||
Spreading his seed.
TacticalCoder 1 hour ago||||
Some people are just driven. A friend of mine who failed at a first startup (in a domain in which he had lots of expertise) then succeeded with his second startup: very nice exit but that's not why he was doing it.

He's an action junkie.

In both cases he saw inefficiencies and just wanted to spend the energy he's always been overflowing with to improve things. I don't know about Musk but my friend hates mediocrity and saw everything as something he can improve.

In another case I was in car, for a long trip, with someone else (who was working to become an... Ambassador: hardly the tech type!) and that person would constantly comment on what could be done enhanced.

Something something about personality types, the builders, etc.

Those who only ever want to spend the money of --and benefit from the wealth created by-- others are going to dismiss it all as "people who are after money" but it's more complicated than that and you can't generalize people.

I know several doctors for example: two of them are clearly money-driven (one of them literally told me "I'd never ever teach medicine, I'm in this only for the money") but most of the others I know are just happy to help people be more healthy.

I've got another friend, not rich at all, he's working an additional job as a firefighter: sure it brings some money, but that's not the reason. He's also an action junkie. He was there driving ambulances during Covid: to be helpful, for the action, etc.

It's not all about money. Thinking it's only about money is a mindset that often comes from those who want the money of others (through taxes).

philipallstar 3 hours ago|||
Going to Mars.
stickfigure 3 hours ago||
I'm convinced this is a schtick. Not that he doesn't genuinely want that, but it's not the root motivation. I suspect it's something more like wanting to be perceived as a real-world Tony Stark. The cave rescue capsule episode is illustrative. The guy likes attention.
fragmede 6 minutes ago|||
Armchair analysis would also mention that Jeff Bezos is going for the Moon with his space, and how do you beat that guy with that ambition? Get to Mars, first. From a scientific perspective, the Moon makes more sense, but if we frame it as billionaires trying to out do one another, what comes after who's got the bigger yacht? So a competition between billionaires on who's better also makes sense as his true motivation.

End of the day though, why does it matter his true motivation? If I was working at one of his companies, as long as the paycheck cashes and the stock options are legally mine, if his motivation is money-based or attention-based or he's a true believer, I'm getting money and I can feed my kids.

It's not like I'm going to get the chance to talk with him personally and get to know him and sus out what it is, either, so it's all just pointless theorizing. What we, the general public "know" is a result of various people with their own agenda pushing their owna viewpoints? Does the man know anything at all, is he a total charlatan, or is he smart and gets it? Hit refresh on a different subreddit and get a different answer.

paytonjjones 2 hours ago|||
> wanting to be perceived as a real-world Tony Stark

The thing is, he _had_ this. He had all of Reddit worshipping him. He had the press. He had the tech-internet.

Then he knowingly blew it all up overnight to ally with Trump.

I think the reasons why are pretty clear: a son-who-loves-me became a daughter-who-despises-me and his companies got repeatedly hamstrung by California Democrats.

But if his root motivation was truly just approval, he would have taken it on the chin and accepted slower growth of his other ambitions. So it's a little more complicated than that.

otterley 40 minutes ago||
> Then he knowingly blew it all up overnight to ally with Trump.

He blew it up years before that with his "pedo guy" false accusation drama.

ErroneousBosh 2 hours ago||
> Founders with 5+ failed startups in different sectors, because said founder picked the fields mainly by doing some market analysis. Not domain expertise.

You mean the moment when someone says "It's Facebook but for dogs! That should be easy, right? I had the idea, that's the hard bit, you just need to write it!"

stevetron 2 minutes ago||
He should have started his own pizza restaurants with his own ovens. Maybe then he'd learn more about baking. Especially pizza.

Restaurants wouldn't even need dish washers if they switched to paper plates. The pots and pans have to be washed by hand anyway. I was a dishwasher in a restaurant when I was only 14. I'd work a 12-hour shift on Saturdays because none of the 'real' dishwashers were available. The only perk I got was that I could have an occasional pipsi on-th-house. I also worked as a young adault in my father's restaurant. I'd come home from 'my' job every day, working on an electronics production line only to be shown the huge pile of dishes that had accumulated during the day. The production line paid me $2.50 per hour. My dad didn't pay me anything. But he let me park my 20-foot trailer in his back yard, which was adjacent to the restaurant property, and in the winter I had to refill my propane every 3 days.

sixtram 8 hours ago||
Oh, I'm glad I don't work in the oven business. We're just starting a stealth startup that's revolutionizing dishwashers, and the prototypes are amazing. They use less water, less detergent, and this weekend we're hoping to solve the last remaining issue: occasionally, they break glasses.
quijoteuniv 5 hours ago||
Oh, I’m glad I don’t work in the oven or dishwasher business. We’re just starting a stealth startup that’s revolutionizing coding assistants, and the prototypes are amazing. They write code faster, explain it better, and this weekend we’re hoping to solve the last remaining issue: occasionally, they deploy to production.
vntok 2 hours ago||
This issue does not come from the coding assistant. In fact, humans will occasionally do the exact same thing as long as their tools have enough permissions to deploy to both local and prod from the same environment.

Fix it by separating the tools (different non-interconnected VMs, etc for dev/qa/preprod/prod environments) and the permissions (different accounts, sessions, tokens, etc for the run/debug/test/deploy loops).

MarioMan 7 minutes ago|||
Reminds me of this monstrosity: https://youtube.com/shorts/YQ-6JTmF-Z4
flowerbreeze 7 hours ago|||
It sounds like you're joking, but I've long dreamed of a different type of dishwasher. One that washes instantly. I don't need it to fit more than a single plate at one time. Just put something in from one end, and out comes clean and dry plate on the other end. Like a car wash.

I am quite certain these exist already large kitchens and I seem to remember one from a school diner from maybe 35 years ago, but I've always been wondering why they don't exist on smaller scale.

Waterluvian 6 hours ago|||
Restaurant dishwashers use an enormous amount of water. They require a hot water supply that’s much hotter than residential heaters typically supply. They require a more complete manual pre-rinse and scrub. They only accept kitchenware that’s made for them and destroy the rest.

Restaurants cycle dishes a lot during a single mealtime. Homes don’t. I don’t think “I can’t wait 2 hours” is typically a real problem.

Skwid 5 hours ago|||
Those I've used in the UK aren't so bad, they're cold fill only with a heating element in the sump. It takes maybe 15 minutes to fill and get up to temperature at the start of a shift, after that each cycle is ~2 minutes.

The hot water is recirculated during the wash, the rinse uses fresh water from the tap with the excess going out an overflow. A little sump water gets replaced every cycle, but enough stays that it's back up to temperature before you've emptied and refilled it. There's also a small peristaltic pump to top up the detergent directly from the bottle.

Not much benefit in a home setting unless you fancy having it hot and ready 24/7 though.

swiftcoder 5 hours ago||
They also have the clever system of standardised, removable baskets. Need to increase dishwashing throughput? yank the clean basket, line them up on the counter to dry, and run a new basket through

This is probably the one trick consumer dishwashers should emulate

hilariously 4 hours ago||
The problem in basically any consumer kitchen is storage - having racks and racks of stuff under your big stainless steel commercial countertops is no problem.
emj 3 hours ago||
So sell small scale scullery, sink, storage and sorting systems to save and subvert storage solutions.
iterateoften 5 hours ago||||
Those Restaurant “dishwashers” are sanatizers. A dishwasher is a person in a restaurant. They are the ones removing and getting the dish clean.
Waterluvian 5 hours ago||
Dishwashers? How dare you. We preferred to be called “Sanitation Engineers - Dishwashing Division” Even had bossman put it on our paystub (he was so tolerant of us kids. I think he was just happy that we were into buffoonery and not meth).
bckr 2 hours ago|||
Engineer? Wow, that’s high falutin. Sanitation Technician is as high as I got.
vntok 2 hours ago||||
Dishwasher? I hardly know her!
fwipsy 2 hours ago|||
Did this actually happen? That's pretty wholesome lmao.
Waterluvian 2 hours ago||
It was definitely one of the more tame activities at work. We would golf rotten potatoes into the field behind the restaurant. Play Celery Generals with traffic, make Concoctions and get the waitresses to test and rate them, and we had an entire WWF wrestling league (that was exclusively judged by the entrance strut and banter; there was never any actual wrestling). Sometimes we’d make new pizza recipes and present them to the kitchen staff of the pizza shop next door. Their contribution to the bit was to act incredibly Italian in their wholesale rejection of our pie. Sometimes we’d even do work.
doubleorseven 2 hours ago|||
the real problem with home dishwasher is that it extend the duration of the task.

the task is prepare food, eat, clean. when you leave the kitchen and come back the next day the task is now different, its unpack, prepare,eat,clean.

you are constantly not finishing today's tasks. it lives to see another day. if you can fix it, bound it to the workflow, you will be a billionaire

jayd16 2 hours ago||
Easy. Just keep your dishes in the dishwasher instead of the shelf.
doubleorseven 1 hour ago||
oh yes, the two dishwashers solution
paufernandez 1 hour ago||
A friend of mine actually did it, and he is quite happy.
Leonard_of_Q 5 hours ago||||
> I've always been wondering why they don't exist on smaller scale.

Because they need space, they need even more nasty chemicals than domestic dishwashers, they need a stack of trays to load the dishes on and a crew to load and unload them.

If you want a dishwasher which doesn't require unloading after use you can get 2 of them, one of which is "clean", the other "dirty" or washing. When the "dirty" one is full you turn it on and let it wash while you take whatever you need from the "clean" one. Once the formerly-dirty one has finished it's cycle the roles are reversed and it becomes the "clean" one.

jason_s 3 hours ago||||
That's called a Hobart. https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/commercial-dishwashers

I've used these while working as a volunteer in a camp kitchen during work weekends, where we had maybe 20-40 guests eating a meal. You put dishes/silverware/pots/pans/whatever in a square tray, push it into one side of the Hobart, and pull down a lever to close the doors and start the cycle. They take a number of minutes that you can count on one hand... I seem to remember 90-120 seconds but I'm not sure. Stuff comes out clean and hot on the other side, and you want to pipeline this so it's one person with dirty hands feeding stuff in, and one person with clean hands (and thick gloves) pulling the square trays out, letting them cool, and putting the clean dishes/etc. away.

They release a huge amount of steam and they're wonderful for this kind of volume (20-40 people at a meal + all the cooking implements to support this). Larger than home use, though --- unless of course you had a mansion with servants. And I get the sense that maintenance and operating costs would be a lot higher than a regular plain dishwasher.

raddan 2 hours ago||
When I was a teenager, my very first real job (after being a paperboy) was being a dishwasher in a popular local seafood restaurant. Minimum wage at the time was $4.25/hr but they offered me $5.50/hr. Boy howdy!

On one shift I was paired with a ex-convict. With the exception of the cooks themselves, most of the kitchen was staffed with high school students and ex-cons. The ex-con I was paired with was a dead ringer for Roger Daltry. I was on the "dirty" side and he was on the "hot" side (because there is a pecking order in even the worst jobs), and for some reason, he wanted _me_ to control the opening of the door. I think the reason is that this guy was high all the time and would space out unless something grabbed his attention. Anyway, I made the mistake of opening the door a bit too soon, when the machine was running, and it blasted this guy with steam. I remember him yelping in pain and then glaring at me angrily. One of the line cooks said something along the lines of "we try not to kill our dishwashers" which probably stopped the guy from punching me.

It's a beast of a machine. A little out of place in an ordinary household kitchen...

mhb 5 hours ago||||
I've dreamed of a dishwasher for people who prioritize clean dishes quickly and quietly over the incremental savings from using asymptotically less water or energy. See also low flush toilets and clothes washing machines.
theoreticalmal 5 hours ago||
Too bad the government demands you prioritize the latter
askvictor 7 hours ago||||
I've long dreamed of a dishwasher that can detect when you remove the (cleaned) dishes from it, and presents a display saying 'load dishes' or something like that. And after finishing a cycle, says 'unload dishes'. Should be pretty easy to achieve with some load cells in the feet, but haven't seen any like that.
Sheeny96 5 hours ago|||
We had this at my old work, except it wasn't a display, it was a circular piece of paper with "clean" on one side and "dirty" on the other. When it was done, you rotate the paper so it was clean side up. Should we have gone for series A? It was a pretty great MVP after all, albeit manual, but automation of the paper flipping would of course come on the second iteration
ValentineC 11 minutes ago|||
> We had this at my old work, except it wasn't a display, it was a circular piece of paper with "clean" on one side and "dirty" on the other. When it was done, you rotate the paper so it was clean side up.

The downside of low tech solutions if many people touch it (i.e. not just the janitor or rostered staff) is that someone can still add their shared mug to the dishwasher just after a cycle's complete, causing the entire batch to be considered unclean. Or in your example, someone deciding to flip the sign but not emptying out the dishwasher.

Then again, these are little things that people have learnt to make do and just live with, and I'm not sure it's worth paying 2x or 3x, or even 20x the price just for fancy feet, like what the article thinks people might do with a fancy oven.

klondike_klive 5 hours ago||||
I would for sure be that rookie who is paralysed with indecision over whether to read "clean" as an adjective or an imperative. Is it telling me that it's clean or that it needs cleaning?
Feathercrown 1 hour ago||
Given "dirty" would make a strange (although valid) imperative, it would likely be referring to the state of the dishes
Skwid 5 hours ago||||
There's also the upgrade path of 2 dishwashers with a single 'clean' token moved between the two. Cupboards are an legacy product holding back progress.
DANmode 4 hours ago|||
Bezos has magnet versions.
briHass 6 hours ago|||
Many modern ones have a door open sensor that allows for the dishwasher to display that dishes are clean after a cycle until the door is opened and fully closed again.

That doesn't help, however, if users are lazy and don't unload the dishwasher after opening it to grab a clean plate or whatever.

It's a nice feature that can be added with existing sensors and one line of logic in the uC. Another one I noticed recently is garage door openers with the photo transmitter/receiver ('beam') to stop the door if someone blocks it can use that same beam to turn on the light if broken when the door is up. Handy if entering a dark garage from outside.

wgd 4 hours ago|||
Some dishwashers add a simple timer-based heuristic so if you open it for just a few seconds while you lazily grab something the "clean" indicator stays lit.
TowerTall 6 hours ago|||
I used to have two dishwashers. One for clean. One for dirty.
afandian 7 hours ago||||
I don't know the first thing about dishwashers, but it seems obvious to me.

The cycle-to-volume ratio is as bad as it could possibly be. Conventional dishwashers recirculate water as they wash and rinse. I imagine there's an mx + c formula to how much water is needed (c = enough water to prime the pump or whatever). So compared to a normal size load, you'd be wasting that constant amount of water.

The wash is also likely going to follow mx+c (c = time for grease to break down, time to rinse, time to dry etc). You can wait a few hours for a whole set of crockery. Can you wait a few hours for a single plate?

Commercial "passthrough" dishwashers work very differently. Manual mechanical action with a spray, plus a quick wash, sterilise and rinse. At that point why not wash your single plate by hand?

aequitas 5 hours ago||||
What you really want is 2 dishwashers! That way you never have to unload the dishwasher because you alternate your dishes between the two. The one that has just completed the cleaning cycle has now become a cupboard with the clean dishes and the other one becomes the dirty dish storage and vice versa.
HelloNurse 3 hours ago||||
It can be accurately simulated with appropriate brushes and rags, water and soap, and a sufficient number of hands.
chasd00 5 hours ago|||
The answer is obviously paper plates and plastic silverware /s
BobBagwill 4 hours ago|||
Then someone has to remember to buy them and take out the trash. The canonical solution is for you and your lazy roommates to eat straight from the pot over the sink. When done, fill the pot with water, to discourage the ants and roaches. Occasionally, you end up with a drowned ratling, but hey, wachagonna do?

One pot, no dishes. Each roommate has to keep track of their private spoon. Greedy "clever" roommate who shows up with a liter ladle triggers a spoon fight in the kitchen. Eating from pot by hand is corrected by rapping their knuckles with your spoons. Eventually, all the glassware ends up broken, and some bozo threw out all the used red solo cups, but luckily, the kitchen faucet has a spray attachment.

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”

― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Airman's Odyssey

ValentineC 3 hours ago|||
[dead]
sumitkumar 20 minutes ago|||
And the broken glass breaks the dishwasher. It is a feature: planned obsolescence.
jayd16 2 hours ago|||
In bars that cycle a lot of glassware they actually do seem to use high heat and break a lot of glasses. But it's fine, the restaurant just buys cheap (easily broken) glasses so it all works out.
Tyr42 3 hours ago|||
That's handwashing right?
teiferer 3 hours ago|||
I hope you are planning for a rotating base as a core feature.
kordlessagain 4 hours ago|||
I'm 6'7".

I absolutely hate bending over to unload the dishwasher. When I open a dishwasher, it should slide out and lift itself to cabinet height. And it should just hold an entire bottle of detergent so I don't have to put it in each time.

DANmode 4 hours ago|||
Are you really doing this?

I’d like to speak with you, if so.

moffkalast 8 hours ago|||
I hope it's not the approach of using less water by not rinsing properly in the end, so people have to either eat soap or rinse everything manually afterwards, wasting far more water. I swear Bosch is so terrible at this.
afandian 7 hours ago|||
The innovation here is clearly edible soap.

And the 'less water' claim is technically correct, but it doesn't mention the decamethylcyclopentasiloxane. Just because it's complicated to spell, you understand.

broken-kebab 5 hours ago|||
>edible soap

Sodium bicarbonate residue won't kill our customers, so consider it technically edible. The issue of taste and efficiency will be approached after MVP

afandian 4 hours ago||
Luckily our investors helped us out with the regulatory capture, so we don’t need to worry about the safety, just the palatability.
jodrellblank 7 hours ago||||
from L'Affaire Siloxane? ( https://mceglowski.substack.com/p/laffaire-siloxane ) (subtitle: "How antiperspirant fumes nearly got NASA to evacuate the space station")
afandian 6 hours ago||
Wow!

(No, from dry-cleaning)

pyrale 6 hours ago|||
Edible soap?! The solution is clearly edible dishes!
afandian 6 hours ago||
Too late, already been done!

https://stroodles.co.uk/collections

I bought some edible cups out of curiosity a few years back. Nice for coffee. I did end up eating them all, although some of them were still dry at the time of consumption.

I think edible soap has better behaviour-adjusted shelf-life here.

tdeck 7 hours ago||||
Perhaps a match for the UK market? From what I've read they often don't rinse the soap off of dishes there (I wish I were making this up).
afandian 6 hours ago|||
Maybe it's the cause of our "bad teeth".

(I heard the rumour too. But no-one I know fails to rinse the "washing up liquid" (as we call it) off their plates)

camtarn 2 hours ago||
Sadly it's true. I've seen people just put the dishes in the dish rack and let the soap bubbles slide off them.
lmm 5 hours ago|||
If there was enough soap residue to matter you'd notice the taste.
ericpauley 7 hours ago||||
Do you use rinse aid?
sfn42 6 hours ago|||
I recently learned that you should add detergent for the pre-wash rinse as well. May dishwashers have a separate pocket next to the detergent pocket, often there isn't even a lid on it or the lid has openings so the detergent falls out as soon as you close the door. If they don't have the symbolic pocket you can just pour some extra detergent anywhere, like just spill some outside the main pocket or pour it into the bottom.

This allows the pre-wash cycle to get rid of most of the grease and stuff before the main cycle so the main cycle is more effective and the water is cleaner so the final rinse works better too.

euroderf 4 hours ago||
> less water, less detergent,

I achieve the first two goals by simply scrubbing+rinsing dishes after most uses and letting them dry. No glued-on food to go gnarly. They go thru the dishwasher once in a while. It's my personal strategy for being eco without getting food poisoning, but I've never seen a paper that evaluates this method in comparison to more-typical workflows (i.e. in-sink wash-using-soap or in-dishwasher wash-using-soap).

brap 4 hours ago||
We keep seeing this. If you had to point out the fundamental problem, what would it be?

I think it’s the disconnect. Each persona is an expert in their own field but is completely oblivious to other critical areas.

The founder knows how to raise money but doesn’t really understand the customers. The engineer knows the tech but doesn’t really understand what it takes to keep the business afloat. The salesperson knows what customers want but doesn’t really understand what’s possible to make. The investor knows the numbers but doesn’t really understand how poorly the business is run.

I suspect if you look at successful startups you’ll often see a very small (1-3) group of founders who are very close, each can do more than one thing really well, and their combined expertise means that together they have very few blindspots.

cm11 6 minutes ago||
People have different strengths, but I consistently see teams that have people who are decent or better at their non-expert skills and their comments play a very small role in the discourse. This is loosely T-shaped. Sometimes they are louder and sometimes not, a lot of the ones who make it manage to (learn to) just not care. I think there are many teams where the person is not actually better at their role than the other team members.

I mostly see the leaders or the product people telling the engineers or designers that they don't understand business—implying that the latter aren't reasonable people who can advocate for things that balance the various dynamics that have been brought up in a meeting, that their view results from only considering the thing technically or aesthetically. It's a hand-wavey maneuver that's always there, said without any specifics. This is particularly so given you've provided specs and designs and they rarely show business or market analysis. I've worked with many PMs to propose our work to stakeholders—they swear to the audience they've done the business work, but in preparing the presentation, they just googled a couple very broad things (one example, "the collaboration market is a $70B market"). I've worked with others, who I've tried to learn from, to teach me the basics of that analysis and they didn't know.

Product managers and product people in general have very little background in product management. It's not a degree or anything. Sometimes they come from backgrounds that are helpful, but we oddly have junior and entry level ones. This doesn't make that much sense, given they are formal or informal leaders of teams. What could they be bringing to the table? A (sad) exception is when access to meetings or information is gatekept, so then they're bringing that. Sometimes it's argued that PMs are good at seeing across things, but that has not been my experience. The problem with the each person is an expert in their own field is that in a lot of teams, the expert is frequently not better at their thing. The decision maker is not actually better at business or seeing across things or making decisions.

red_admiral 4 hours ago|||
To me, the fundamental problem is what Paul Graham pointed out here: https://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html

"The way to get startup ideas is not to try to think of startup ideas. It's to look for problems, preferably problems you have yourself.

Why do so many founders build things no one wants? Because they begin by trying to think of startup ideas. That m.o. is doubly dangerous: it doesn't merely yield few good ideas; it yields bad ideas that sound plausible enough to fool you into working on them."

Finding a problem _you have yourself_ also increases the chance that you understand the problem space.

whstl 4 hours ago|||
I dunno, going back to the article, at some point customers are getting exactly what they're asking for:

"their kitchens are custom-built, so they need ovens with specific dimensions. Oh, and a rotating base like the one they already have."

“My oven at home connects to the fireplace. Does yours?”

“I make a lot of wedding cakes, what have you got for me?”

“Do you have a Ramadan mode?”

Those are all problems.

But are they problems worth spending time? I dunno.

dijksterhuis 3 hours ago|||
> But are they problems worth spending time?

They're not problems people need solved. They're problems people think they want solved. need != want.

the high street bakers needed reliability with improved efficiency at an affordable price (cost of risk). they didn't need improved efficiency, less reliability and still really expensive.

singron 3 hours ago||||
Pre-purchase, the customers are just looking at lists of features. Post-purchase, they realize the ovens burn bread and cake 10% of the time and pizza 100% of the time, and they just want a good working oven that doesn't burn food.

It seems like most customers are returning the oven, which would normally be an extremely strong signal that there is a quality problem. In the SaaS world, the equivalent would be churn, but it's not always as straightforward since if users quit before they sign up (e.g. by reading a review or using a free trial), then they don't show up in that metric.

andyfilms1 3 hours ago||||
The key difference is the founder built a product in search of a problem to solve, rather than the other way around.

The "secret" is just to talk to people in the field they're trying to "revolutionize," and ideally observe them work. Often, people become blind to workflow problems and workarounds become normal process. They never even consider to look for a better way to do something. Those are the opportunities for founders to solve.

But what I've seen a lot is founders just arbitrarily coming up with an idea that sounds cool on paper, raising money, and only realizing too late that there is zero actual market fit.

gmueckl 1 hour ago|||
A lot pf good products are a combination of features that customers need and use and features they think they need and ask for, but never use. But the sales wouldn't be as good without them. It's a bit comical once it becomes apparent, but it is a widespread pattern.
korrectional 36 minutes ago||||
Wow I never heard about his blog but just spent the last 3 hours reading it and wow its a treasure trove
__MatrixMan__ 4 hours ago||||
...which is why none of the best software is a product or a service. The best software is always a tool, made by people who have a problem for people who have that problem.

Occasionally the business types come along and make it worse by turning it into a product or a service. Other times they make bad products and bad services from scratch.

The people in this story are focusing at the wrong layer (as are many of us). They need to stop trying to sell ovens and start trying to sell baked goods. Maybe once they're good at that, they can also sell whatever oven they came up with along the way.

paulryanrogers 4 hours ago|||
> Finding a problem _you have yourself_ also increases the chance that you understand the problem space.

If most founders are wealthy, or even reasonably comfortable, it's possible they're too out of touch to identify a problem shared by enough people.

christina97 2 hours ago|||
This may apply to B2C firms, but B2B firms are more likely to be run by people similar to them.
__MatrixMan__ 3 hours ago||||
Which is why income inequality is so insidious. The more successful your rich people are the less effective they become.
teiferer 4 hours ago|||
Depends what kind of market you are going after. Mass market for end users, sure, your argument applies. But there are lots of other types too.
willturman 3 hours ago||
> Enterprise sales isn’t about ovens.

The handshake comes first. The requirements come later.

terminalbraid 4 hours ago|||
> The engineer knows the tech but doesn’t really understand what it takes to keep the business afloat.

This is assuming there IS a way to keep the business afloat. It's this framing of thinking that has caused more suffering, frustration, and bad will in all the places I've worked at which are just reskins of this article.

A business is entitled to it's model but it is not entitled to success. This story which is more than just a strawman or anecdote gets it right: The engineers are doing their job the best they can with unreasonable expectations set by people who do not feel they need to be constrained by reality and just have dollar signs in their eyes. The engineers do not share the same type of blame as everyone else at the company. Their failure was enabling nonsense and greed.

icedchai 3 hours ago||
Yep. I've worked at a couple startups where engineering built a thing, sales was able to sell it but had to give a huge discount. The resulting economics just didn't work. But, each sale was seen on its own as a success even though the generally lost money. Often there was a discount plus some promised bespoke feature that required additional development to close the sale. There was never enough volume and often that additional engineering work never applied to another customer. Nobody wants to say "maybe this deal just isn't worth making" and move on.

In a couple of these cases, the company was ultimately sold in a fire sale. The early investors, founders, and employees got nothing. The acquisition is still celebrated as a "success", of course.

codingdave 1 hour ago|||
> The salesperson knows what customers want

No, and neither does anyone else in these scenarios. Almost all startups are trying to build something new that they want people to want. But customers almost universally do not want your product. They don't give a crap about you or your product. What they care about is delivering their own product and/or achieving their own goals. Your product is a tool. If it is a tool that helps them for a reasonable price, they will buy it. But never be fooled into thinking "They want my product". They don't. They want an effective tool to to meeting their own needs. Your product wins when it is that tool.

msteffen 4 hours ago|||
I read somewhere that almost every very successful person’s results can be attributed to 2-3 tricks that they consistently apply to great effect.

With Elon, I think one of his is “build it as cheaply as possible, and then you can afford to only sell to people who are purely excited about the tech.” I don’t know when he learned this (I actually wonder if it was a lesson he learned from Eberhard/Tarpenning at Tesla, who were only selling the roadster to sports car enthusiasts who cared more about 0-60 than fit & finish, or range, or cost, or anything else).

Anyway, my current interpretation is that the pizza guys shouldn’t have sold to pepepizza (or friends and family, probably). I know startups do this all the time, but whenever I’ve seen it, it always seems to turn into a distraction from the Big Idea that is the company’s thesis. Then Big Customer gets hung up on ancillary requirements and Cool Startup doesn’t really get to test their thesis at all. Maybe the key is to stay small, focus on finding people who really care about the new oven tech, and size the company to that market until you’ve solved enough problems to expand to people for whom the cool tech is concern #2 or #3.

ryandrake 1 hour ago|||
Every startup/SmallCo I worked for seemed to fall into this trap. Sales finally finds a BigCustomer, and the company instantly transforms from a product company into a custom engineering contractor for BigCustomer. We're no longer building our own product vision: We're cramming everything BigCustomer is asking for while they hold a carrot tied to a stick in front of us. We no longer have a general product that can be sold to anyone. We have BigCustomer's wish list and they still haven't bought more than a handful of units.
felix-the-cat 3 hours ago|||
> I read somewhere that almost every very successful person’s results can be attributed to 2-3 tricks that they consistently apply to great effect.

This entirely. I've been CTO at a handful of startups, most recently one that sold for a very large sum of money — and the successful ones are almost always led by people who keep things dirt simple: focus on the customer, execute quickly, communicate clearly, keep costs low, and keep the technology simple. That's basically it. Just a few simple things, applied relentlessly.

The ones that failed were always the total opposite — not listening to their customers, poor communication across the org, blowing their runway on "we need Google-scale infrastructure," switching languages or frameworks halfway through the project, and so on.

__alexs 3 hours ago|||
The problem is that people are not listening to each other. Part of this is just working together is hard, but a bigger part is that there is status associated with being "in charge" of things as founder. The desire to feel like you are controlling the outcome and people need to take instruction and direction from you rather than working together to find a path through the forest.
ranyume 4 hours ago|||
Your solution is to fire CEOs, shareholders and only make employee-owned businesses? I mean I'm on board.
dexterdog 4 hours ago|||
Sounds great until a hard decision has to be made.
PhageGenerator 3 hours ago||
Just because a business is employee owned that does not mean it lacks leadership.
mpyne 4 hours ago||||
Nothing is stopping employees from banding together to create these obviously-superior businesses right now and eating the VCs' lunch. Right?
whstl 2 hours ago||
This is incorrect. Concentration of wealth is definitely stopping them.

Most people can’t just stop working and start working for no cash.

I might be missing some obvious sarcasm, though!

singpolyma3 4 hours ago|||
CEOs are employees...
sarchertech 3 hours ago||
Except that they usually sit on the board and frequently chair the board.
eapressoandcats 1 hour ago|||
It seems to start with the fact that the founder doesn’t understand the business domain at all:

How do people actually buy ovens? What actually matters for customers, not what do they say matters? Who are the competitors and why do you think you can actually do better than them in at least some niche? What culture actually works for an oven producing company?

post-it 2 hours ago|||
The fundamental problem is that reality has a surprising level of detail (as described in an article by the same name). The founder is the same kind of guy that believes the government should just get rid of inefficiencies.
lsaret1257 4 hours ago|||
Isn’t a large part of fundamental problem the lack of clarity and mental discipline to stay focused on MVP and if it’s clear it’s necessary then pivot but still stay focused? It seems clear to me that real problem is lack of focus and discipline.
gedy 3 hours ago||
Yes, but the subtle issue I've seen in companies is "MVP" easily ends up interpreted as: "add this one small thing since it's quick and easy to implement". Then before they know it you've got this mousetrap-like product that goes in all sorts of directions.
stickfigure 3 hours ago|||
Balance the power between business, engineering, and sales. I suspect this is at least partially why PG likes founders with an even equity split.
charm137 3 hours ago||
There are two fundamental problems: one is the inability to admit mistakes and shed the false aura of omniscience in front of customers, investors or employees. The second (almost a corollary of the first) is overpromising and, as a result, underdelivering because those who face the customers/investors want to appear infallible.
phtrivier 4 hours ago||
This article could have been written 20 years ago (source : I was there), probably 50 years ago, and will probably be written for ever. (Although future éditions will have fun about AI.)

What I would love is to read more of the story from the perspective of the salesperson (we're all too sympathetic to the engineers, and potentially ceo - but I suspect their part of the story goes beyond "I'll just say yes to everything and cash my variable share of the deal". Otherwise, pour rational next move would be to all become salesperson and build oven on the side for fun.)

Also, I would love to read the perspective from the customer side ? ("What do you mean they sell oven that don't rotate ? We clearly specified that we needed an ISO-98765 compliant oven !!! OF COURSE it has to rotate !! why did the boss just went with the cheapest supplier again ?")

Or even the perspective from BigOven ("guys ! I read on linked in that this little startup has built a candle button, why don't we have that already ?")

More seriously - do you know of startups that got away with salespersons saying "no, sorry, we can't make rotating ovens, you should see our competition, or come back in three years." Aren't those dead as dodos, by virtue of not having any customer to pay the bill ?

engeljohnb 4 hours ago||
I'm a healthcare worker, so I'm not immersed in this world at all. I can only speak as person who has to use the oven, but doesn't get to pick which oven is purchased.

My bosses don't buy the ovens that are the most dependable, the most efficient, nor ones that are even compatible with the other steps in the cooking process.

They're impressed by the AI oven that cooks the pizza mostly right 30-40% of the time. "It'll be more consistent if you let the oven decide how long to cook." But we ignore that because of how stupid it is.

They buy ovens that suck because sales people impress them with baking jargon they don't understand. At least, that's how it comes off when they talk about it. I'm sure getting a good deal is a much bigger factor than they say.

They don't eat pizza. They can't even tell whether it's burnt. They tell me "soon the oven will do everything for us and you won't be needed."

They don't seem to comprehend that an oven can't knead dough or mix ingrdients. And that's even ignoring the fact that the auto-cook features are wrong except in the best of conditions.

The ovens break constantly because of the humidity levels needed to keep the dough nice. They spend more on repairs than they ever did on the ovens. We keep telling them to get the moisture-resistant ovens. They say it's too expensive.

ryandrake 3 hours ago||
It's amazing how much of the world runs on confident CEOs convincing gullible investors to give them money and confident salespeople convincing gullible customers to buy their junk. I wish I re-did my character creation and put all my skill points into charisma.
simpaticoder 2 hours ago||
No. When the chips are down and your back is to the wall, I don't want the charisma guy, I want the indefatigable reality guy.
fwipsy 2 hours ago|||
"Aren't those dead as dodos, by virtue of not having any customer to pay the bill ?"

Not if they're building inverting ovens for another big corporation. If you do one truly worthwhile thing better than everyone else, do you still need to chase after marginal opportunities to stay afloat? I'm sure there are many, many small companies (not "startups") who are just quietly filling a niche.

dirkc 2 hours ago|||
For me the worst scenario is when a kitchen sink of non-existent functionality the customer never asked for was sold. And in all likelihood it will never be used. But some project manager is hellbent on getting it through the pipeline and checked off!

I (maybe idealistically) believe that when you give the people building agency and connect them with the end-user, you get better outcomes.

Tactile6700 2 hours ago|||
Seller here. There’s no justifying the sales fails in this story. It’s strictly cautionary.

In this story specifically they needed to bring technical stakeholders to Mallorca.

mepiethree 2 hours ago||
from my friends in sales, sales perspective could be: going from meeting to meeting just getting yelled at.

- previous customer yells at you for not delivering required features. You ask the engineer about the status of that feature

- engineers write a manifesto on #general complaining about you for asking them about the status of the new feature

- PM calls you in to yell at you for trying to jump the roadmap

- you start prepping for weekly call with the CEO. at least doubled your numbers this quarter!

- while you're prepping you get a response to one of your cold emails from the day prior, someone calling you "gauche" and "annoying"

- go into CEO meeting. CEO yells at you for being 80% under the quota, because the psychotic quota was set to 10x last year's numbers.

- long day! go home. husband yells at you for working late

etc.

ogoffart 7 hours ago||
Similar story here.

Even though our ovens actually work fine, the problem is a new competitor: OpenOven. Their oven is completely free, and on the Italian forum everyone talks about them. It has even way more buttons than ours (most don't work very well, but the community loves it).

We almost sold to MrBaguette, one of the biggest bakery chains in the world, as they wanted new oven supplier for their next generation of kitchen. Their chef tried our oven and loved it. But in the end they went with the pricier one from Corporate Oven, because some VP thought we were too small and worried we wouldn't supply them in 20 years.

hwh 3 hours ago|
I started OpenOven in my free time of which I had a lot when I was still studying law. Ovens were always something I was interested in and I created FunkyPizzaHeater, as it was named when I started it, only to play around with the tech. I published it on the Italian Oven forums and it really hit a nerve, there were immediately 2 people who took the design a bit further. People tried building them and posted photos, there was a lot of discussion and eventually we agreed on a new name and moved the OpenOven project to github. It was still a project for oven enthusiasts who liked lots of buttons, until it was miraculously featured by a slightly weird but lovable YouTuber with 2 million subscribers who suggested OpenOven to anyone to finally get rid of corporate big oven.
jenadine 1 hour ago||
I just saw the news that you raised another 1.2 billion. Congrats!

If I may ask how do you actually plan to make money? Because as far as I can tell, you're still losing a lot of money on every oven you give away.

xg15 6 hours ago||
I found the part about the engineer's motivation interesting:

> The founder offers [the engineer] 20% of the company and total freedom to build the perfect oven. The salary isn’t great, but there’s the promise: [...] And something more important than money: he’ll finally get to build the oven of his dreams.

That turned out to be a complete lie. Not necessarily a deliberate one - I think it's quite possible both the engineer and the founder were initially believing it - but it was still a situation that never existed in that way.

Essentially, they weren't aware of all the constraints that existed for their oven design and then mistook a situation where the constraints were unknown with one where there were no constraints at all and they could just build whatever they wanted. But the real constraints were set by the market, investors and corporate customers and those were already there before they even stated the company.

(I don't think it means you have to submit to those slavishly and can never bring anything of your actual vision into your products, but it feels naive to be completely unaware of them.)

nikanj 3 hours ago|
It's some variant of chesterton's fence, where you believe all of these huge, established companies in a space are just stupid and refuse to release a product thats 10x better
stickfigure 3 hours ago||
This situation does exist though; otherwise startups and new products would never succeed. Big companies have blind spots.

Netflix, Google, Airbnb, Uber, Slack, the iPhone, Github, Stripe, Dropbox. Big players at the time could have built their products, but didn't.

iamjackg 2 hours ago||
How many of those are "the exact same product, but better" though? Definitely the iPhone, and possibly Slack. Everything else you listed was a drastic change in the way an existing service (taxis, home media, backups) was delivered or priced, to the point where they feel like either an entirely different product (or an unsustainably priced one that wins by virtue of being cheaper at first, see Uber and Airbnb).

I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you -- but I think there are some things where "everybody has clearly been doing this wrong the whole time" doesn't pass the smell test: ovens have been around for millennia, including through the whole industrial revolution and recent exponential modernization of technology.

BoxFour 1 hour ago|||
> Everything else you listed was a drastic change in the way an existing service (taxis, home media, backups) was delivered or priced, to the point where they feel like either an entirely different product

Doesn't this still line up with the original point though?

The incumbents had the exact same opportunity to capitalize. Blockbuster could've leaned into streaming hard before Netflix.

I do think that's become a bit harder recently, though, so the original point is slightly less relevant (though obviously still exists, see for example OpenAI vis-a-vis DeepMind). Big companies are much faster on chasing trends, even if they end up amounting to not much. See crypto, for example. I do think part of that reason is because the current wave of companies capitalized where incumbents faltered, so they're desperate not to make the same mistake.

stickfigure 2 hours ago|||
Google was definitely "exact same product, but better". It was a search box.

However, I think Anova would be a better direct counterpoint. They started in sous vide, replacing existing products that did the same thing but better. But now they are literally trying to replace ovens. That effort started after the Electrolux acquisition in 2017, but they do seem to be pretty successful. A friend of mine really likes their steam oven, and if I had more space in the kitchen, I would be tempted.

nikanj 30 minutes ago||
But what were the huge, established companies that had refused to deliver a better product before Google came along?
marvinstrauch 7 hours ago||
Uncomfortably accurate, but a fantastic read. Somewhere between the candle button and "It doesn't rotate clockwise" I stopped laughing and started remembering.
sgallant 5 hours ago||
Agreed. This could be a story about my last startup... A good reminder.
BalinKing 2 hours ago||
Welcome to HN. Just a heads up that, from the site guidelines[0]:

> Don't post generated text or AI-edited text. HN is for conversation between humans.

(I'm not a mod or anything; I just noticed that most of your comments have been flagged/killed, and I suspect this might be why.)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

vntok 2 hours ago||
From the same guidelines:

> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.

thesurlydev 3 minutes ago||
Best line: "Engineering has no time to stop and rethink their approach, because stopping isn’t in the backlog."
clan 8 hours ago|
This was such a funny and refreshing read. Especially to find on this VC fuelled forum.

There was so much truth in this on a Dilbertesque level. If you can learn from this you are winning.

I am not saying "VC bad". I am saying it is a sharp-edged tool which you need to wield with great care. This humorous piece really points out the pitfalls.

Worth the read - do not just lurk here in the comment section (as I usually do!)

weitendorf 4 hours ago||
I had the opposite reaction, this felt like a story that was literally purpose-built for pandering the hn audience without saying anything interesting.

Good fiction teaches you something you hadn't seen before, or challenges your perspective, or articulates a point of view or personality that you had never before considered. If it's just "some guy went to work and it sucked and he was right and everyone else was wrong and the Green People did classic Green People bullshit", and there's nothing else complicated or humanizing it, and no real-world lesson or stranger-than-fiction details to it, then what value does it have?

Like, what would happen if you asked a redditor with 10 years of experience reading about startups, but no real exposure to that culture/experience beyond the comment section, to write a story summarizing the consensus opinion on reddit of how startups typically work? Of course, because it's made up it's not wrong, but it exists entirely within the socially-contingent reality of the Internet Consensus.

In the real world there's politics, inter-personal relationships, personalities and personality flaws, and too much detail for "startup flails around" to be something you can reduce to "the startup flailed around". Of course it did, but why and how? A story that says "you know how it goes in all the other stories? yeah, that" or "there was a guy like you and he was good, and all the other guys were idiots and they were bad" has no point

clan 4 hours ago|||
I grant you that it might pander to a certain audience.

You are 100% correct on good fiction.

I have the feeling that you will not like Franz Kafka.

Without elevating this piece to that level I think we can still agree to disagree on what good fiction is.

Or maybe your humor is better aligned with the socially-contingent reality of Franz.

But your perspective is valued. I need to shake of my bias and remember that there are no easy wins. For each point there is a counter. And I find it hard to argue against yours as my bias makes your stance feel very dismissive. Everything then turns into wedge issues.

I would have preferred an argument based on why the piece was flawed not how. Then I could counter with my experience and we could have had a conversation.

Enough Internet for me today! ;-)

HelloNurse 3 hours ago|||
One of the points is that, for a startup, not flailing around is very difficult and unlikely: these patterns of failure and "classic bullshit" are the universal norm. This piece "articulates a point of view or personality that you had never before considered": that you and your startup are no better than the characters in the tale, and equally doomed.
weitendorf 2 hours ago||
Yes, that's the Internet Consensus and the reddit comment section every time a startup doing anything is mentioned.

You should never take a risk, business people are all evil and stupid, you should treat every employment or business opportunity as purely transactional because they'll do the same to you, there's nothing you can do about your job or employment, the only way to win is to cheat because everyone else is doing it, the key to happiness is educating other there's not really any cause and effect involved in the way things work unless you, personally, already know it. Just, you shouldn't do anything unless you understand everything about it, and if you don't it's not your fault.

> not flailing around is very difficult and unlikely

This is literally the defining trait of startups. What makes it stupid is that it's always more complicated than "engineer guy did everything he could but got screwed in the end" and that in real life, sometimes people do actually make money or establish businesses because of decisions they made, and conversely that there are real causes and effects behind things that don't go the way you want them to. Telling a story that doesn't contradict in anyway with consensus (so, directionally correct but always wrong) opinion has no point in the same way that there is no point telling a story where a knight rescues a princess by journeying through the kingdom making friends and overcoming challenges, then confronts the evil guy and kills him, the end. This is just that, but "the shady business guy and the screwed engineers"

smugglerFlynn 8 hours ago|||
Sadly it is not unique to VC. Many in-house products of large companies follow exact same story: sunk cost fallacy, investing in expectation management instead of the product itself, risky and expensive bets dressed as 'MVPs', riding on perpetual promises etc.
6LLvveMx2koXfwn 7 hours ago|||
Yeah because developers never wrote a line in POC which made it to prod ;)
pockybum522 7 hours ago|||
Agreed, I have no experience with VC anything, but I was still nodding along the whole time as I was reading.
restlake 5 hours ago||
same. substitute VC with upper management and I (corporate dev through and through) became more queasy as I read. product and strategic mismanagement is the real deal regardless of the source of capital
alias_neo 7 hours ago||
Interesting you found this funny. I didn't find it funny at all, my response at the end was somewhere between a sigh and a gasp.

- Mario

clan 3 hours ago||
Yeah. I find it important to laugh at the absurdities of life. I found this to be a home-run (albeit light-weight).

It really surprised me how it seems to have polarized people. I never seem to learn.

More comments...