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Posted by zaikunzhang 5 hours ago

AI boosts research careers but narrow the span of ideas explored: study(spectrum.ieee.org)
107 points | 85 comments
dahart 3 hours ago|
> Scientists who adopt AI gain productivity and visibility: On average, they publish three times as many papers, receive nearly five times as many citations, and become team leaders a year or two earlier than those who do not.

To me this effect doesn’t seem to reflect on AI very much, it seems to reflect on humans. Like maybe this is more evidence of the Babble Hypothesis and the incentives in research than AI, no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babble_hypothesis

bloqs 2 hours ago||
This is superseded/proven by basic psychometrics it seems? Big Five Extraversion is roughly equivalent to "social dominance", how well an individual implements themselves in a social setting. "Extroverts" or people high in the trait are of course more likely to see progression on the basis they are superior at presenting value in a social setting in terms of social ability, which is often (falsely) accepted as a proxy for overall competence. This is why they end up running orgs as well
cyanydeez 2 hours ago||
id say extroversion likely correlates inversely with bullshit detection and its merely quantity over quality.

the last decade of US politics demonstrates just how powerful willingness to produce put strips all other critical skills.

AI exacerbates this and exposes fundamental human heuristic frailty.

natsucks 2 hours ago|||
"Perhaps, says Evans. But he doesn’t think that the problem is baked into the algorithmic design of AI. More than technical integration, he argues, what may matter most is overhauling the reward structures that shape what scientists choose to work on in the first place.

'It’s not about the architecture per se,' Evans says. 'It’s about the incentives.'"

koe123 3 hours ago|||
You reckon there could be any selection bias? Some means justify the ends reasoning.
sieabahlpark 1 hour ago||
[dead]
Labo333 4 hours ago||
> “It’s not about the architecture per se,” Evans says. “It’s about the incentives.”

It would have been useful to check whether less original work was already getting more citations before AI adoption. That could reflect broader trends and network effects: heavily cited research areas attract more authors optimizing for citations, so high-productivity researchers end up clustering on the same topics.

beepbooptheory 2 hours ago||
The actual paper is linked there if you are curious.

But also just thinking about your point for one second: in your mind, how else would they argue for the conclusion if not by checking the trend over time? Like what is the precise implication here?

Diogenesian 3 hours ago||
They did. The article explains tbat this is a trend which has been getting worse for years, specifically pointing to search engines as a major turning point. Your comment is completely off the mark.
skeledrew 4 hours ago||
As with other fields touched, AI is merely amplifying what was already there. The aim of many scientists isn't discovery in and of itself. Discovery is a side effect of their primary drive to publish and - hopefully - become well known. And establishments only make things worse, because it's the things that are most likely to produce tangible results (the papers, or economically valuable products) that get the most funding.
matthewdgreen 37 minutes ago||
It's a little more complicated than that. If all you're interested in disovery, you can wander off into rabbit holes or disappear into areas that are only interesting to you. Publishability is useful because it gives you useful external feedback into whether a community thinks what you're doing is "worth discovering". Like any metric, you can find yourself gaming it (intentionally or unintentionally) and it has a slew of other failure modes. Still, you can prize discovery and also care about what other people think.
Ekaros 32 minutes ago|||
I wouldn't even be certain about being well known. I would guess there is lot of pressure to stay employed or get the next funding. So optimising for this is the new goal and lot of publications and citations are metrics that help with that.
throw94949499 3 hours ago|||
You could also argue the opposite:

The aim of many scientists is discovery, publishing is a side chore to survive and to get funding. Automate paperwork and you get more time for discovering.

_alternator_ 2 hours ago|||
Seems to me that both perspectives are true, and the relative importance of the metric incentive vs the discovery incentive varies. But the metrics and rewards are critical to the perpetuation of the scientific discovery system; its really hard to disentangle.
skeledrew 2 hours ago|||
Well the paperwork is automatable, and things are being automated. But still there're the findings that the article points to: it's leading to far more publishing (and ladder-climbing) than novel discoveries.
DrewADesign 2 hours ago|||
You’re overgeneralizing a smidgeon.
skeledrew 2 hours ago||
Speaking from experience and conversations.
DrewADesign 1 hour ago||
So am I. I worked in academia for a couple of decades.
skeledrew 1 hour ago||
OK cool so you have a far larger sample size than I to generalize from. Can you explain then what're the root cause(s) of the findings in that article?
analog31 3 hours ago|||
Do you know any scientists?

Disclosure: Physicist.

skeledrew 2 hours ago||
I do, and through conversations have learned that they enjoy what they do and publish patents (they're PhD in industry), but ultimately what they seek is "fame and glory" (literal quote).

I was also in academics myself up to the Master's level (research track), and personally had to deal with the politics of getting support for what I wanted to work on; that experience helped to discourage me from going on to a PhD, as I'd rather have proper leeway to work on what I really prefer and take avenues I find interesting.

cliglot 33 minutes ago|||
> but ultimately what they seek is "fame and glory" (literal quote).

lol how old are these people? You have better chance at fame and glory if you started a stupid YouTube channel.

analog31 1 hour ago|||
Oddly enough my experience is the opposite. I live in an academic town, and many of my neighbors are scientists. They view the "fame and glory" as something that maybe someone else has a chance of achieving, but not a realistic pursuit for themselves. Pursuit of funding (which now includes suing the Federal Government) is at best stressful drudgework for them.

I work in industry. In that case, nobody who meets me would ever know that I have patents. I would consider them to be a useful add-on for my resume should I ever need one, but it doesn't define me.

goldenarm 3 hours ago||
100% agree. You could make the same argument for Hollywood : funding & revenue was always the goal, and we've been producing slop before AI was even a thing
radarsat1 2 hours ago||
"boost research careers".. seems like a pretty drastic conclusion to draw based on a technology that has existed for like 3 years and only lately is any good..
fnordpiglet 36 minutes ago|
Yeah that was my instinct too. What sort of career defining trends are visible with this much historical data? Feels like someone wrote clickbait research to get published.
aborsy 2 hours ago||
A new breed of academics has appeared whose jobs is to put their names in every paper possible. Literally, their job is to work on frameworks to buy co-authorship.

They do this in various ways, like establishing paper pipelines, collecting rents on labs and committees, focusing on money layer, using their profiles and citation count to help with acceptance of papers of other people , etc. You talk to them and they can’t explain their papers beyond a superficial introduction.

They collect huge citations, travel and give talk on the winner horses, collect credit, which feeds back into this fraudulent scheme. A scientist used to be a scientist not long ago, not a credit collector.

I wonder if Google could invent a new metric to expose them (weak ratio of first authorship, etc).

matthewdgreen 32 minutes ago||
A lot of this is downstream of compensation schemes that explicitly reward dumb metrics, like raw paper-count without subjective evaluation of contribution or quality. I don't want to generalize, but this seems to be more common in countries that are not the US or Europe.
washadjeffmad 1 hour ago||
It's not new, and entire disciplines exist because of these dependent structures. It doesn't do to unseat and discredit the connected and well regarded, but you might enjoy some mild comfort in security in numbers through a little citational flattery.

It's a game of cultural tribalism. The only thing worse for one than not engaging is to upset the status quo unblessed.

koe123 2 hours ago||
I enjoy using AI loads. Yet I would be keen to see numbers on actual productivity increases. This reads as yet another datapoint similar to what I’ve experienced: maybe code was the bottleneck at some point, maybe now it isn’t but in my lived experience the bottleneck has simply shifted. Its easy to create “more” but to actually hit the business goals… I don’t see a 2x TRUE productivity boost in anyone in my company.

Please feel free to disagree with me! I am keen to hear more anecdotes to get more datapoints.

rbartelme 47 minutes ago||
As a bioinformatics person that's spent time in and out of industry/academia, I agree with some of the article's thesis. While I don't think LLMs or AI are going away, I do think it will allow people in academia to pump out a bunch of inane papers and continue to prop up predatory scientific journal publishing via tenure and promotion. In fact outside of how utterly useless Fable 5 is via their aggressive guard rails for my work, I quite like using statically typed and/or functional languages with other LLMs since there are some baked in guardrails via compiler + type system.

I think the flattening of progress is the most interesting dimension to the article. For an example a useful biological product discovery with a nonlinear path to get to there, look at the Taq polymerase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taq_polymerase). Without some NSF funded exploratory ecological research by Tom Brock in Yellowstone Hot Springs to test the theoretical limit of life at high temperatures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermus_aquaticus) we never get to the Taq polymerase, we never get reliable/robust PCR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction), which is now a gold standard method in both clinical and environmental testing! It is rather improbable to think that large language models would associate those domain connections across the topic (molecular biotechnology + ecology + microbial physiology). I also did some exploratory work with text embedding models people might use for RAG and challenged them with an open source scientific MCA question dataset, generalist embedders performed worse vs. domain specific embedders trained on scientific corpora (doesn't surprise me at all). However, if everything regresses to the median of the universe of possible knowledge, it seems like scientific leaning frontier models would get locked into this asymptotic flattening before turning cashflow positive for model vendors OR they become so locked down that only big pharma, state actors, or big ag can afford the API rates and vetting process.

dickersnoodle 4 hours ago||
This isn't a real surprise to anyone who knows how "AI" works.
jurschreuder 2 hours ago||
Ironically it's also written by AI :)

I like LLM's but this writing style is like eating the same dish 4 times a day.

Nevermark 4 hours ago|
Any flattening of discovery due to AI, but will be temporary.

We tend to think that obvious potential is the same as realized potential, for new technology.

For any specific context, there are generally innumerable smaller adaptations and capability thresholds that have to be crossed. And the price for that journey is often temporary loss off overt productivity.

Arainach 4 hours ago||
No, this is significantly more permanent. LLMs are autocomplete generators based off current context, and training generations of people to always ask the planet burners instead of learning to think for themselves - and never having the experience of having to slowly think over the same thing for an extended period - may well mean a permanent cap to human knowledge and a dramatic slowdown or end to new knowledge.
CuriouslyC 3 hours ago|||
You act like humanity doesn't exist in a competitive environment. If you think AI codegen is a mistake? Just relax, keep writing code by hand and wait for the pendulum to prove you right while showering you in wealth. There are plenty of people making this bet, and I wish the best of luck to you because I'm 99% certain you're on the losing end of it.
adalacelove 3 hours ago|||
The very point of the article is that you can win individually and lose as a colective, and that the competitive nature of the field goes against the greater good. And the people betting against AI will be ripped off.
rightbyte 3 hours ago||||
> the pendulum to prove you right while showering you in wealth.

This seems like some variant of "why don't you short the market and become rich". It doesn't work like that.

Arainach 3 hours ago||||
The market can remain irrational longer than any of us can remain solvent. The market is not any good at strategic or long-term thinking, particularly if it takes a generation to realize the scope of the damage, as seen by America abandoning its ability to manufacture things in chase of short term profits.
abalashov 2 hours ago||
This is exactly the right answer. The supposed "rationality" of capitalism can ruin us before we get a chance to dazzle the world with our contrarian insights.
rightbyte 2 hours ago||
I hate how that very argument has been used by people riding the tide to rationalize the irrationality. Money talks or something. If you don't like it here why don't you leave etc. It is a grifters goto statement.
claytongulick 2 hours ago|||
Alternatively, you can walk away from your career in disgust, taking your skills and experience with you, as many people are.

Should be interesting to see what happens to the programming profession when there isn't anyone around anymore who actually knows programming.

spongebobstoes 3 hours ago|||
when a parent answers their child's question, does it decrease the curiosity of the child?

many children have an unlimited capacity to ask "why?". many adults are the same

if the abilities of AI are finite, then we will continue to have burning curiosity, questions to ask, and discoveries to make

Jtarii 3 hours ago|||
There is two different types of learning people are talking about.

The first type happens when you are enthusiastically engaged in a topic, which LLMs will likely enhance.

The second type happens as a by-product of solving a, perhaps deeply uncomfortably, difficult problem. This is what people are talking about when they say LLMs will hamper human cognition. Instead of sitting there for an hour and struggling, people will instead reflexively give in and ask an LLM to solve it for them.

spongebobstoes 3 hours ago||
it's an interesting point. is it worthwhile to struggle through an incidental task that has been solved before? we all stand on the shoulders of giants

I think in most cases, understanding is the point. we don't expect students to derive general relativity before doing astrophysics. re-invention is only a tool for understanding

Retric 2 hours ago|||
“Understanding” without being able to use that knowledge for anything isn’t useful for getting stuff done.

The flip side is even more interesting. There’s a great number of electrical engineers with significant physics backgrounds who don’t really understand how electricity actually works, but they can still solve useful problems. By understanding I mean they can describe what underlying physical phenomena reactance represents etc.

rznicolet 2 hours ago|||
Small counterpoint to your analogy, as someone who studied astrophysics: I actually did have a requirement to understand general relativity! Deriving all of it independently from scratch wasn't something we did, but there _were_ derivations involved. And it was definitely worth working through -- it _is_ a good tool for understanding. (I've long since left the field, but I don't regret the work I did.)
Arainach 3 hours ago|||
> when a parent answers their child's question, does it decrease the curiosity of the child?

When the child is able to go to YouTube and find a tutorial rather than having to puzzle it out, yes, it absolute does. We've seen this for decades now.

claytongulick 2 hours ago||
Richard Sutton apparently disagrees [1]. He argues that it's impossible for anything novel to come from a LLM.

[1] https://youtu.be/kEbVTcncuX0?is=gEMe5zD9sXWD4ONy

Nevermark 1 hour ago||
Actually:

> its output can be novel or good, but rarely both at the same time.

> rarely

That is not a viewpoint they can't do something useful and new.

With that criteria, he could be talking about anyone.

I find it rare that people critiquing AI today, actually hold people to the same standards. Or are as enthusiastic about referencing ways machines keep surpassing us, as for ways they have not yet, when speaking about limits for progress.

claytongulick 57 minutes ago||
LLMs are the tech in question, not ML (AI?) in general.

LLMs are fundamentally limited by their architecture to only return a token predicted by a statistical inference, essentially lossy decompression.

It's like arguing that taking an image, compressing it with JPEG and low quality, then decompressing it into something blurry with some random color values thrown in is creating new art.

No one is arguing that everything a human has created is good. No one is arguing that LLMs can't be useful.

Sutton is arguing that it can't be novel. Cherry picking a couple of words doesn't change his argument, which is very clear.

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