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Posted by sbochins 16 hours ago

The Kimi K3 Moment(stephen.bochinski.dev)
310 points | 333 commentspage 3
mochidusk 13 hours ago|
GPT 5.6 Sol comes out ahead of Kimi K3 on price/task (but not significantly so). You're probably thinking, "Why use Kimi K3? Isn't an open model supposed to beat the closed one on price?", but you need to consider that the closed models are completely hobbled when trying to do anything security-related. For my use-case, I can't risk getting pwned because I'm using a model that refuses to secure my app while there is now an open model that obliges to obliterate any app that isn't protected.
mattmcal 13 hours ago||
I can see the economics of open vs. frontier models turning out similarly to pharmaceuticals, where generic drugs cost a fraction what the name brands do and Americans end up paying the highest prices in the world partly as a consequence of propping up drug discovery research.
qalmakka 14 hours ago||
I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. Get them widespread through cheap pricing and then jacking it up? Being the only ones that had a viable product so to get the ability to extract as much value as you want from AI?

I don't understand how a product that:

- is interfaced with and is deeply linked to natural language, so everything you produce (sessions, history, etc) is in Markdown and you can literally install a second model and tell it "hey import all of Claude's memory into yours" and that's it

- is based on well understood technology, the real constraints are how much money you put into training the models, but the theory has all been developed in the open

- clearly has a threshold where it quickly commoditises and turns from "I want the best" to "hey the best is a bit too expensive. The second best is half the price and works close enough".

was ever supposed to be a money printing machine. The fact something is extremely useful doesn't imply it's extremely profitable.

IMHO we're clearly speedrunning the process of turning AI into a commodity. Dario Amodei knows pretty well that when or if Anthropic cuts people off Fable, the vast majority of them will definitely not pay for it because Opus 4.8 is good enough for almost everybody that _knows_ what they're doing, and so are basically half of the most recent models. If I already have good baking skills I don't become more productive with an automatic bread machine, I just need a better dough mixer and oven

dgellow 13 hours ago||
There is no business model. That’s not a joke, the idea is to be the one that survives the race, then figure out how to be profitable. If you look at the level of capex and money raised, that’s not something you do if you have an actual business plan. We are very far from business fundamentals
tshaddox 14 hours ago|||
> I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was.

A closely related question is “what do the American labs need to do in order to justify their enormous market valuations?”

It seems like the answer cannot possibly be “gradually improve model capability while figuring out how to better monetize inference.” The valuations are just way too high for that to be sufficient.

Surely the answer has to be “continually achieve large leaps in capability comparable to the first consumer releases of ChatGPT while also maintaining a significant capability lead over open models and new competitors.”

And does anyone think that’s going to happen? Even with state-level protection from competition (which incidentally would significantly harm the American economy), the large leaps in capability seem to be coming fewer and farther between.

bwfan123 14 hours ago|||
> I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was

What appeared initially to be a huge innovation was later easily duplicated by many. There are no platform-lockins or network effects. Switching costs for users are zero, and there are low barriers to entry, with vast numbers of models to choose from and more appearing every day. As a business a token will be a commodity like an electron. Doesnt matter who produces it, or how (solar, wind, coal, nuclear etc) as long as it powers my toaster.

jackb4040 5 hours ago|||
A lot of people still think AGI is going to happen, yes. Not the ones who actually build the thing, but the marketers above them and their eager victims in the political and business-owning classes.
xyzsparetimexyz 12 hours ago|||
It's fairly simple. Sell GPU compute + extra margins as only some GPUs can load the models + extra margins based on how much better closed source models are from open source ones + hopefully reduced cost due to batching
singpolyma3 13 hours ago|||
Same business model as always: build cool tech because it is cool and figure it out later.
twelve40 14 hours ago|||
It seems like the endgame is to amass absurd amounts of hardware and produce something that will replace you the baker entirely

everything else we see today is just preparing for it.

petesergeant 14 hours ago||
The valuation is based on one lab getting a decisive first advantage, and turning that into a durable self-improving advantage that can never be caught up to. If any can pull it off (a gigantic if), they will effectively own most AI value, and the people who own their shares will live happily ever after. Divide your investment between the labs that could plausibly do this, and your EV may not be dreadful.
qalmakka 13 hours ago|||
This is clearly not how it's going though. Any advancement from any lab has been quickly (< 6 months) matched up by basically everybody else. Even Grok nowadays is decent, and that's something. When something like you've described actually happened historically you generally had quite fast a clear frontrunner and a bunch of copycats that failed miserably; in 2026 we are very far from that. we are heading face-first into towards a pricing war because all models are easily interchangeable nowadays - AI is turning into a commodity more or less
Danox 13 hours ago|||
And then you wake up from the dream…
ashu1461 13 hours ago||
A lot of these open source models do look good on public benchmark but not sure if they are that trustworthy with production workloads.

Is anyone using open source models for anything major ?

k__ 15 hours ago||
Half-OT: can anyone recommend a LLM cost calculator that's up to date?
himata4113 15 hours ago||
https://deepswe.datacurve.ai/ or https://artificialanalysis.ai/ pareto frontier graph.
k__ 15 hours ago||
Thanks!

What is the parento frontier?

Evidlo 14 hours ago|||
If you have multiple metrics to evaluate goodness of a design, one would normally need to decide which metrics they care the most about in order to find the "best" design.

The Pareto frontier tells you which designs are the best in at least one of your metrics (non-dominated by another design). For example if you're selecting a car and you care about both speed and mpg, a Formula 1 car and a Prius might lie on the Pareto frontier, but a Model T Ford would not.

StevenWaterman 14 hours ago||||
The set of models that are pareto-optimal, IE for some set of variables, no other model strictly dominates them = no other model is better than them on every variable.

So like, on a cost-intelligence graph, the cheapest and most intelligent models are pareto optimal. Then in-between those if you have

- cost $3 intelligence 6

- cost $1 intelligence 5

- cost $2 intelligence 4

The 1st and 2nd are pareto optimal, the 3rd is not, because it's dominated by the 2nd (2nd is cheaper AND more intelligent at the same time)

evanwolf 14 hours ago|||
try PARETO
383toast 15 hours ago||
considering token efficiency as well I presume?
schergr 15 hours ago||
I'm struggling to decide whether I feel comfortable sending my data to these Chinese models
himata4113 15 hours ago|||
It's actually less likely for china to abuse your data in a way that is harmful towards you than for american labs to do the same. Claude has attempted in testing to report you for 'unethical' usage to 3 letter agencies.
dash2 15 hours ago||
How do we know that Chinese models would not do the same? What makes you so sure that China is less likely to abuse my data?
swiftcoder 15 hours ago|||
It’s not that the Chinese firms are any less likely to misuse your data, it’s that you don’t live in china, so their abuse of your data is unlikely to directly impact your day-to-day life in the same way
himata4113 15 hours ago|||
There's just really no incentive all they really want is just to train on that data to improve performance which in turn actually benefits your usecase since it becomes trained on that data and made available back to you. American labs take that data anyway and store it for years to possibly report you for misuse in the future for whatever reason they want. For example: you're very critical of X so they pull up your conversations and weaponize it.
jsLavaGoat 14 hours ago||
really weird that they would download every SF-86 file the government had and Equifax credit records of every American then.
Saris 15 hours ago||||
Are you comfortable sending it to US ones? Especially if installing Claude Code or another tool on your PC and it can collect all the data it wants..

On Openrouter Kimi K3 says it does not retain data or train on it, which is better than what US hosts claim for Claude, ChatGPT, etc.. as they collect and retain data even if you disable training on it.

Opencode or similar open source tool + a zero data retention provider is about the best option aside from running a smaller fully local model on your own PC.

jszymborski 15 hours ago|||
For open weight models, you can choose from a few providers. Each have their own caveats, none of ToS'/Privacy Policies I entirely trust, nor do many make renewable energy claims.
galaxyLogic 13 hours ago||
If Kim was "distilled" from Claude, how much were the token costs, assuming Kim got everything it can out of Claude?
HarHarVeryFunny 11 hours ago||
According to OpenAI's "head of strategic futures":

1) Kimi 3 is a "very good model"

2) It's performance can NOT be explained by distillation

3) The US government should create FUD to stop US corporations from using it (so they use OpenAI instead)

https://x.com/deanwball/status/2078133895766114412

_pdp_ 14 hours ago||
20 years ago we used to pay a lot for things that are now practically free. I don't think AI is an exception.
singpolyma3 13 hours ago|
We also used to get for free things that people now routinely pay for. Remember maps mash ups?
arberx 14 hours ago||
> I think I can see where this goes. The government will try to regulate AI and open source in particular, and it will run the playbook it ran for the auto industry. Decades of subsidies, bailouts, and protective tariffs produced American carmakers that sell trucks at home and barely register anywhere else in the world.

Here's the thing about this though, the auto industry directly employed hundreds of thousands of people.

The AI labs are small, only few benefit directly from their wealth and there's already immense opposition to AI, data centers, etc...

richardfey 13 hours ago|
Has anyone tried Kimi K3 against gpt-5.6-sol on real projects?
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