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Posted by surprisetalk 5 hours ago

Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)(arxiv.org)
73 points | 53 comments
klik99 4 hours ago|
I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on harmonics and overtones which can be explained objectively, you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics. Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect. It then becomes part of what you expect in the future and music evolves.

Ultimately minor sounds sad because it's been used that way for a long time and it's what we expect. I was listening to Trout Mask Replica and my wife said it sounded like her home town funeral music (I later heard some myself and yeah she was right) - Captain Beefheart doesn't sound sad to me, but it does to her. The funeral music uses major 5 note scale.

And on "But I've Been a Musician All My Life / Studied Music In College and I've Never Heard Any of This Before!" - ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee. This article is good for the objective parts, but really self-congratulating for the subjective/experiential part of it.

ScotterC 3 hours ago||
Right on. In my experience across different art fields, I’d say the only generalizable facet of ‘good’ art/music/etc is the “it sits just outside of what we expect”.

These days I liken it more to the idea of ‘surprise’ in information entropy which denotes an informative signal then to revealing any sort of objective truth.

klik99 3 hours ago||
You might like the book Emotion and Meaning in Music - it starts from some outdated psychological ideas (that emotions are only intensity and that we assign positive/negative valence post-hoc) but ties that to early information theory and makes a really compelling theory of music that's all about the interplay between expectation and surprise, across both the physical harmonic ratio stuff this paper talks about and the cultural associations too.
foobarian 3 hours ago|||
I find the major/minor thing so fascinating. I remember it having the "happy"/"sad" vibes from my earliest memories and have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural. But if it's not cultural, then why? Also is the fact that major 9ths have a beach/island vibe cultural due to Brazilian jazz? :-)
kansface 20 minutes ago|||
> have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural

I played in a gamelan ensemble in college. The music was completely foreign. A piece that sounded like a funeral procession was played at weddings. I have a hard time believing the arrangement of music is not cultural - or, at least partially culturally bound.

klik99 3 hours ago|||
Yeah, that's really getting to the heart of why the idea of a totally objective theory of music seems legit. Major/minor doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's a lot of other signifiers in the music that are highly correlated. It's not just the major triad, it's the energy of the beat, playing, singing, the bright instruments. If you were a 2 year old and just heard a major chord played on a piano, then a minor chord, then you probably wouldn't get "happy" or "sad" from it. Maybe by 3 or 4 you've already picked up the correlation between "happy music" and "major triad". You pick this stuff up really quick and it's part of your core memories/mental model, so it can feel inherent. It's like the fish that doesn't know what water is.

I've been working with some people building a music model from scratch and it really surprises me how much correlation there is across different features. It's been difficult applying that to general sound effects, because music is highly correlated in ways more general sound isn't.

tshaddox 3 hours ago||
> you cannot make a fully scientific theory of harmony since cultural expectations factor in just as much (and maybe even more) than the expectations around harmonics.

That's only true if you're expecting a "fully scientific theory of harmony" to mean "a theory that can precisely predict how popular/enjoyable any given piece of music will be." But I don't think that's a reasonable goal, since (as you say) individuals are complex and culture is even more complex.

It's not unlike, say, pain or discomfort, which we can also develop scientific theories for. We can discover how pain works physiologically and psychologically, but our theories are never going to fully explain why individuals or cultures might welcome and even seek out certain types of pain in certain contexts.

klik99 3 hours ago|||
I meant "fully scientific theory of harmony" in the same way your second paragraph does, not as predictor of popularity but predictor of what kind of effect it raises in the listener. A big part of how music effects the listener is sociology, which sure is scientific, but I tried to use scientific in the way the article uses the term, IE from objective first principles and not culturally specific/learned response.
crdrost 2 hours ago|||
It's worse than that though -- the things that you are born enjoying, are loud oceanic white-noises and a deep thumping backbeat with occasional muddied high-pitched vocals.

I had a similar dream as a freshman in physics, I had learned that the organ of Corti was a spiral-shaped transducer in a little special bone and I dreamed of snail shells and proving that harmonies formed interesting geometric patterns on the darned thing, and how maybe people who seemed chronically tuneless might be shown to have malformed ear bones -- until I finally got to see images of them in a bio textbook and realized that my dreams had to be crushed, this blobby thing, whatever else you say, is not working geometrically.

So a science of how music works physiologically and psychologically, is able to explain why rock and later certain forms of ambient and trance "felt good" to folks -- it took them right back into the womb: the distortion on the guitars felt like the swishing amniotic fluid, the four-on-the-floor sounded like a heartbeat, the indecipherable high-pitched vocals sounded like Mama's voice peeking through the noise. But beyond that, it's our experience with twanging strings and air blowing through wind instruments and the like, which informs what sounds familiar to our grown ears. And the proof is how robotic and alien pure sine waves sound: this is a part of your organ of Corti complaining, "hey, when these hairs are tickled usually those ones also tickle -- but they're just standing flat, what the hell is going on."

Lots of everyday things tickle the organ of Corti in patterns that resemble a major chord, so that sounds familiar to it. When you play a minor chord you deprive it of stimulation to some of those hairs but stimulate the ones a little more outward, and the organ says "there's something off, this thing is lower than I'd expect" and it's some sociology that you can do to say "when people are hurt they can communicate this most effectively to other pack animals through lower more mournful cries" and so there are semi-biological semi-cultural expectations that govern "lower = sadder" especially at low tempos. But you can do the same in reverse, play a sus4 chord, and it sounds weirdly brighter and you feedback through those semi-biological expectations in reverse, weird but with more energy than expected. But you can also just play minor scales uptempo and then they also change, the minor scale at a higher tempo has somehow more energy and less sadness than the major scale -- indeed rock music is full of minor pentatonic licks that nobody would ever describe as sad or painful or discomforting.

simonreiff 4 hours ago||
I studied harmony and music analysis many years ago as a piano performance major in school. One thing I will say is that harmony really is not an abstract set of symbols on a page representing chords, but rather is a taxonomy of common specific sequences of simultaneously sounding pitches, abstracting away instruments or larger structural considerations and providing a dictionary that defines the most common patterns. Here's an example: Perhaps you're familiar with the idea of major and minor, but you might be unfamiliar with a Picardy third, where a composition is in a minor ("sad") key throughout but ends in that same pitch but on a major ("happy") chord. J.S. Bach used Picardy thirds regularly to end his compositions, but the Picardy third became rarer after Bach's death. Still, it's a beautiful and striking harmonic progression that continues to appear now and then. And now you know EXACTLY why that 1967 song by the Turtles, "Happy Together", has that really nice and memorable ending; that's a modern pop example of a Picardy third. Again, harmony is not abstract; it's the names musicians have given for specific sequential combinations, many of which have been named centuries ago. It's not about nicer or worse; sounds are sounds, but some are combined more often than others and those combined most frequently have well-known names that can be used to explain concisely the "harmonic" aspect of a piece of music.
bollu 1 hour ago||
where would I learn a taxonomy of such motifs? I trained for classical piano as a kid, and I'm slowly trying to learn jazz piano as I ease back into it! I'd love to learn more about these types of harmonic ideas and motifs as I get back to playing
duped 1 hour ago||
I think the word "taxonomy" is a really good way to look at music theory. Really, the study is about giving names and notation to things in music so we can write and talk about it at all.

There's an interesting idea though that there could be a deeper why specific sounds and their combinations are the things we create names for, but that's an intersection of cognition/physics/culture that goes beyond elementary music theory.

TheOtherHobbes 3 hours ago||
There are much better overviews of this from Sethares and Tymoczko.

Consonance is somewhat frequency-dependent. For more, Google Critical Band and ERB.

The happy/sad idea is pretty much a high-school oversimplification. It's true for beginners, not at all true beyond that.\

It's quite rare to find music with straight major and/or minor triads with no other colours.

pitchlatte 2 hours ago|
to add, all of this doesn’t account for music outside of that which is a direct descendant of 15th and 16th century contrapuntal music, aka the sort defined by exactly the medieval texts it pokes fun at. any fusions are outside scope, let alone entire non european cultures of music. incredibly ethnocentric and blinkered premise.
PaulDavisThe1st 4 hours ago||
I personally consider this to be a better intro, albeit in video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCsl6ZcY9ag

This is a more recent paper (2019) that I think is better constructed and more aware of the in-field work than TFA:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7006947/

okzgn 4 hours ago||
The logic that something sounds worse simply by combining dissonant notes is questionable, because music constantly combines elements—notes, chords, even different rhythms—without that necessarily implying displeasure for the listener. Convincing.
pier25 4 hours ago|
"Worse" is definitely a subjective appreciation influenced by culture and personal taste.
dhosek 3 hours ago|||
In the 00s, I sang in the Holy Name Cathedral choir and we did a lot of 20th/21st century choral works with harmonies that strayed very far from the classical tonal vocabulary to the point where when I was doing my own composition work, I realized that I didn’t hear dissonance any more.
okzgn 4 hours ago|||
That's why it's questionable, because it's subjective. It would be factual to find the keys to determine what sounds "worse" across the majority of subjective opinions, independent of culture and personal taste.
BigTTYGothGF 2 hours ago||
I agree that there's a lot to be desired in the pedagogy of music theory, but this is pretty bad. There are so many little things wrong with it that if I started trying to address them all I'd be here forever.

Anybody interested in this stuff would be better off with something like Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale (https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/ttss.html) or Music a Mathematical Offering (https://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/d.j.benson/pages/html/maths-mus...)

toolslive 3 hours ago||
I only skimmed the article. There's a lot of good stuff (debunking a lot of classical harmony) but they miss some important things too. There's nothing about repetition. Repetition legitimizes. Our brain is really good at pattern recognition, and as soon as it can predict something you're more than half way there to make it sound good. There's plenty of chromaticism that works because the brain "gets" the sense of direction.
montebicyclelo 4 hours ago||
I was wondering whether this might have an explanation for why I don't really like major music, preferring minor / modal / non-functional harmony... it does:

> Throughout this derivation of different chords, you will note that a gradual progression or degradation from high-theme/low-complexity (Major Triad, Harmonic Series chords) to low-theme/high-complexity (Minor and Ambiguous chords). This progression is suggested by our measure of interestingness from Section 2.4 "Interestingness: Just Enough Complexity". That is, as we progress, more and more of the theme of the Harmonic Series is lost and more and more complexity is introduced. Notice that this progression seems to mirror that of musical sophistication as well: musically untrained listeners like Major chords while more musically trained listeners are more tolerant to loss of theme and more interested in complexity. (I met a signal processing engineer who had played piano for something like 18 years and who simply did not like Major chords at all.) Other fields seem to progress similarly: white wine is preferred by new wine drinkers, whereas more "complex" red wines are an acquired taste.

breezybottom 1 hour ago|
Consider that you're not actually hearing major and minor intervals, you're hearing approximations of them due to 12TET.
analog31 16 minutes ago||
Depends on the instrument. That's mostly applicable to keyboard and some electronic instruments.
skew-aberration 4 hours ago||
I have to highly recommend the book 'Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics' for mathematical/physical explanations of sound and music. Bells having multiple resonant modes, tuning kettle drums, how string materials and plucking methods changes harmonic profiles, why having lots of high frequency harmonics sounds bright (and electric guitars, pianos optimise for this), why sounds without high frequency harmonics sound hollow (nylon strings), virtual pitch, acoustics of rooms, etc.

My impression is that most sounds have their effect on us due to psychological association with familiar sources of those sounds, and that melody and harmony are fundamentally more subjective - they depend on looser associations with motion, mood, the human voice, the changes and developments of sounds in our environment.

schroffl 4 hours ago|
Are you talking about "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade? I'm interested in buying the book, but I'm not sure which one you mean. Do you perhaps even have the ISBN?
dr_dshiv 4 hours ago|
Harmony has always been a principle that refers to more than music, let alone chords. Here is a recent review: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240587262...

It also refers to the “first” scientific experiment: an empirical test of the generalization of a mathematical model of harmony — from ratios of string lengths to ratios of chime thickness (as recorded by Aristotle’s student Aristoxenus)

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