Posted by tchalla 1 day ago
Honestly, even though I love the idea of Japan and the idealized vision of Japan that's often presented in the media, I can't help thinking that a lot of this stuff can be found much closer to home in Europe. The BBC didn't need to go all the way to Tokyo - they could find this in pretty much any Spanish city.
I can leave my house at 6 AM and go get fresh bread or baked goods and go sit by the water, or I can leave the house at 7 AM to get groceries if I'm out of something and be back by 7:10.
American cities don't want this because having a huge empty house with a huge empty yard and having to drive 90 minutes to get to work or 30 minutes to get groceries is the American Dream and no one who's been sold this dream wants to believe that there are so many better and more efficient ways to live.
Suburbs are subsidized by economic centres. And the state of affairs in North America - Vancouver included - is we’re not building housing to match demand. That’s true purely in terms of individual units but it’s also true for types of units. Like apartments that aren’t luxury units, but that can fit a family. They don’t build those anymore because city council makes it completely unprofitable for developers.
If you think that apartment living is inherently more expensive I’m sorry to tell you that you have it completely backwards.
If we limit this to downtowns, there are several cities in America that are similar (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego, Austin, NYC to name a few).
Worth noting the US does not have a single city in the top 20 worlds most livable. Honolulu is #25, Atlanta gets #35
That tells you something.
Never mind this has been around for decades.
It actually makes perfect sense. In every metric that impacts a persons everyday life the us is almost always dead last among OECD countries. So of course the cites are too.
The thing is that these cities aren't pricy for swiss people, with a swiss pay-cheque (err, direct bank-to-bank money transmit). It's all a result of decades long higher inflation there, that now has this extreme price difference. And with prices did their wages increase ... but not yours, visiting Switzerland. At least the country is so small you can just drive through. You don't need to go into one of their supermarket and see that all the stuff is 2x as costly as north, east, west or south of it ...
But yeah, prices play probably a huge role in this "livability" index.
Zürich (Zurich) is at place 3, while Wien (Vienna) is at 2. And I guess this has something to do with the spectacular low flat rents in Wien. They have lots of non-profit cooperatives that own the houses and take rent so that they can refurbish the houses and build new ones (1/4 of all flats in Austria is build by such cooperatives). All over Austria, 16% of all flats/houses are owned by them. But I guess in Wien it's even higher.
There are comparison sites that say that in München (Munich) you pay in average 1249 € for rent, while in Wien it is 872 €. Okay, I select the most expensive german town, so maybe this is rigged. But even with capital vs. capital Wien is cheaper.
https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/munchen-vs-wien
https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/berlin-vs-wien
The nicest town isn't "livable" if people can't live there because it's only for DINKS.
I wonder if the USA will go down the same route eventually.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Its more likely that they simply value all the convenience they listed over having their own backyard, larger living space, living in a quiet safe neighborhood for kids to run around in, and being surrounded by nature.
I will admit my ignorance here however and acknowledge there are likely myriad other variables at play here that I'm not considering.
You can definitely see affects of the poor economy lately (lots of pawn shops popping up, replacing expensive cafes/restaurants), but housing is still reasonable for now.
Also, if you're trying to save money as a local, moving just 3–4 train stops away often makes a noticeable difference in rent or hotel prices.
Vancouver is great, just wanted to call out the bias and massive overgeneralization in your statement.
Yeah this is precisely the exact opposite of what the article is talking about.
The US does not have a single city in the top 20 worlds most livable for a reason. (Many, actually)
Unfortunately there is no such thing as utopia and there are always pros and cons.
But you can get that in the states, you just need to pay for it, although the prices are something Vancouverites can surely emphasize with. And frankly, Vancouver area has some wicked unhappy commute opportunities as well.
The nice thing about living in China was that it was easy and cheap to live urban.
It is not that cheap when you adjust for the average hourly salary.
and imported goods are disproportionly expensive when you need them
I have a nature area, gym, pharmacy, grocery store, numerous restaurants, bar, and a bunch of other amenities you just listed. I live basically on the rail line so I can get to the rest of the city in 30 minutes (with more of said amenities) and am at the intersection of two major highways which means I have even more travel options. I'm 2 train stops from a smaller downtown which has every botique shop you can imagine.
I do live in a place that was specifically designed for this but these places are designed and aren't that unheard of in US cities. When I lived in the suburbs I had similar options a few minutes walk from my house.
In the last ~20 years Vancouver has almost always been the number one or number two worlds most livable city, so this makes perfect sense.
One of the insane aspects of this is it's genuinely easier to deal with foreign countries than other parts of the same country . . . but I digress.
I’ve spent considerable time in both - seen something around 46 states and all but two provinces and territories. I’m actually an immigrant from a different OECD county.
On the surface, the US and Canada are fairly similar. Once you live and go to work everyday, the differences are stark.
Every single person in Canada has healthcare. Medical bankruptcy does not exist. People are much kinder, much less prone to anger and violence, and happier. There is vastly less crime. People care about the collective good, not just themselves.
The US is a dog eat dog world. Canada is a work together world.
I’d been living and working in the US for 6 months, and came to Canada for the first time. After 30 minutes I felt more at home and happier than I did at any time during six months in the US.
They are NOT the same. Anyone that thinks they are should live in Canada for a few years and see how they feel.
If you're ok waiting 6-18 months for basically everything that's not life threatening.
The reality is that people either suffer in our system or go abroad for medical treatment.
> I’d been living and working in the US for 6 months, and came to Canada for the first time. After 30 minutes I felt more at home and happier than I did at any time during six months in the US.
Of course, you were on vacation. Wait until you find out that the median Canadian income is ~$33k USD and s typical apartment is ~$2500 per month for 2 bedrooms.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111002...
I’ve had surgeries, my wife gave birth, plenty of friends have been through the ER and doctors (we mountain bike, ski, snowboard, etc)
Please, please stop making stuff up.
https://thehub.ca/2026/01/21/over-105000-patients-left-canad...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/atlantic/article/4600-atlantic-canadi...
https://www.maplemedglobal.ca/destinations/mexico
https://www.benefitsandpensionsmonitor.com/news/industry-new...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/i-had-started-saying-g...
Yes, it's fine if you fall into a category where care absolutely can't be delayed or it's life threatening.
And before you accuse me of lying, here's the literal fucking CMA saying wait times are too long and worse than peer countries: https://www.cma.ca/healthcare-for-real/why-do-canadians-wait...
For example, both myself and my 2 year old son had to get surgeries considered "elective" in Canada. Both quoted over a year wait time. I went to an EU country got it done in 3 days, got his surgery done in a couple weeks. He's been recovered for half a year and no one even called back yet to schedule his surgery in Canada.
But yes, I guess when he was born they made space for us in the hospital. Of course he ended up getting most of his yearly checkups and vaccines in the EU as well since over there you can get an appointment in a day here you have to book months out.
And before you call me a liar why don't you check one of the thousand sources that corroborate what I say, or at least a couple I put in this comment.
Also, the thing with medical care, it's fine until it's not. I never needed any medical care until I was 39 so of course I thought it was fine.
Edit - let's also not forget that 23,000 patients die waiting for surgery in Canada per year. That's more than the amount of people murdered in the US per year and not per capita (would be equivalent of 200,000+ Americans dying waiting for surgery).
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/more-than-23000-canadi...
Is it the best on the world? Clearly not.
Is there lots of room for improvement? You bet, and people like my wife are working hard at it. The Canadian system is vastly better than the us system for the vast majority of people. A system where everyone is covered and there is no concept of medical bankruptcy is obviously better out of the gate.
Also really odd you’ve gone so hard on healthcare when that was just one of the many points that differentiates Canada from the us. I mean, you wanna talk about paid leave days? Maternity leave? Crime? Inequality? Cost of healthcare v outcomes, life expectancy….?
Maybe because 34% of ALL government money in Canada goes towards healthcare. So this means I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars per year for healthcare that I haven't been able to use. Maybe it's bad luck that my family has required several "elective" (note that elective doesn't mean optional) procedures in the last few years, but it's a kick in the teeth to have to pay out of pocket for healthcare in another country when so much of our taxes go towards it here and we can't opt out.
> differentiates Canada from the us.
Not going to lie, the constant US boogeyman is what keeps Canada so fucking mediocre. There's 38 "rich" countries in the world (OECD) and a ton of them are ahead of us. Why aren't we striving to be more like Switzerland, Germany, France or Norway? Why is it some binary of USA or not USA? There's a ton of countries that are safer than CANADA (nevermind the US), get more maternity/paternity days, get more vacation days, get better healthcare, better income, less inequality and a better income/cost ratio. Even the laggards in the EU have better productivity (GDP per capita) growth than Canada and even the most dangerous EU countries are safer than Canada and even the worst EU health systems are better than ours. But we're just going to ignore that because some aspect of the US is worse (also half your points the US will still win because lots companies still provide those things even if they're not required).
If every Canadian spent a year living in central or northern Europe they'd be radicalised enough to overthrow this government. Of course the reality is that Canadians who do move abroad just stay there (more Canadians live abroad than any of our peer countries) so the people that do stay here are the ones with little ambition. For better or worse I was born in Canada AND have a residence in central Europe so it's pretty easy for me to see how Canada has fallen and is being left behind by our peers. If we didn't have resources and easy access to the largest market in the world we'd be a 3rd world country (or more likely would have just never become a country).
Yep, that’s how it works in every country with healthcare for all. Remember you’re paying less than Americans pay, and you’re getting better outcomes. [1]
I also pay for police and firemen and a ton of other stuff I’ve never used. But I’m happy my community gets that safety net, and it will be there if I ever need it.
> There are 38 "rich" countries in the world (OECD) and a ton of them are ahead of us. Why aren't we striving to be more like Switzerland, Germany, France or Norway?
I agree with you 100%
Canada is not the greatest at many things, and has a long way to improve. I’m happy people are working hard to do that.
The original point above was that Canada is essentially the same as the US, which I refuted. At no point did I say Canada is the best or has nothing to improve.
I’ve spent significant time in 65 countries, worked in a handful. I chose Canada. I wasn’t born here, I hold three passports (one EU) and could leave anytime.
That's what you think... My previous home also burned down in a wildfire that claimed 2000 other people's homes... A wildfire that was warned about for 20 years and for which zero precautions were undertaken.
This year other people's homes have burned down and more are at risk near Vernon.
Canada is a joke of a country, the only good parts are the camping, skiing and proximity to the US for business (assuming you don't need venture capital of course).
I’m happy to hear you agree with my original comments, and the point of this entire thread. Canada is not “just like” the US.
The only reason anyone at all moves to Canada is that the US has per-country immigration quotas...
This whole comment chain exists because way up someone said Canada IS the US, just with metric and people that talk funny.
I’m glad we agree that is not the case.
It probably has a lower homicide rate (and a vastly lower vehicular homicide rate) per capita than your 'nice US suburb'.
That same 'nice US suburb' is also, for some reason, packed to the gills with terrified people who have an inexplicable desire to own guns for 'self-defense'. Self-defense from what..?
Having been to quite a number of what I would call 'nice US suburbs', and knowing people from them, a significant fraction of them act like they are living in some lawless Mad Max hellscape. How do you square this circle?
This. When my Japanese girlfriend finally visited my small hometown in Spain, she was surprised how lively the city was. Not Madrid or Barcelona, but just a small 100k city. In Japan the big cities are cool, but small cities are ugly and boring.
That's a horseload of bullcrap. For a start there are plenty of pickpockets in many spanish cities (not just Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia). Then there are people visiting houses: don't tell me it doesn't happen for I had my house visited by thieves the one time I forgot to put the alarm on (because I had to run to the ER for my daughter was between life and death).
I happen to know both Spain and Japan very well (I've got family in Japan): there's not anywhere near the level of safety you have in Tokyo in spanish cities.
Not even close.
I agree it'd be hard for almost any other country to match that general sense of "safety" in Japanese society - we've probably all read the stories about wallets full of cash being dutifully handed in to the lost property office, and so on.
But the idea that Spanish towns are seething with pickpockets and everyone is creeping around in fear is also "bullcrap", imo.
My family is from Spain and I've spent a lot of time living and visiting there. Before she passed away, my 90+ year-old mum was out with her friends every single evening - playing cards, walking around the streets, mixing it up with families and small children strolling and playing outside long into the night.
I'm pretty amazed some robbers somehow knew your alarm was off that one time you had to rush out. That was pretty bad luck.
They are all in a rush to get home or work or school.
I feel sorry how little time they actually get to do things they want to do on their own schedule.
Sometimes our infrastructure and zoning are awkward, and we're too reliant on cars, but I still think there's hope.
> The smell of fried croquettes
But yeah, this description matches the city I live in here in France.
The genius of the BBC is to gloss over that in a culture that isn't Japanese these things all easily become negatives.
Who wants the smell of other people's food, maybe from a cuisine you hate? Or new local businesses cannot start because they can't buy property limiting options for consumers? And public transit stops become noise and litter parties.
> Or new local businesses cannot start because they can't buy property limiting options for consumers?
Are a lot of new local businesses starting up in America's suburbs? Is it a problem to have the same shops operating in the community for decades if they serve the community's needs?
Even in Manhattan I saw 'shops' which seemed to have a similar square footage to my bathtub; if there's an opportunity people will find a way.
> And public transit stops become noise and litter parties.
If you have garbage cans at your transit stops and your populace are respectful towards each other then this is also not a problem. If your idea of a transit stop is somehow also some kind of rowdy social event then the problem is not urban planning.
Fundamentally though this is a common American attitude. Look at something that's new and different and say "This would be bad for these reasons", ignoring the fact that dozens of other Western and Eastern countries with dozens of different cultures and behaviors all do these things and it all works out fine.
It's the same as the argument about health care. Socialized medicine would be bad for reasons X, Y, Z, even though if you look at countries which have socialized medicine and a similar standard of living you'll see that not only do those countries not have those problems but also those countries have better health outcomes, longer life expectancy, and more efficient healthcare.
You say that none of this stuff would work in "a culture that isn't Japanese", but what you really mean is that it wouldn't work "in a culture which is American", so maybe that's a good place to start looking for things to change.
Among the other bits of wrongness in your comment this is spectacular. Americans are utterly addicted to novelty.
Japan being a well functioning society is not "new and different".
Get to the bottom of why that is and you'll probably have a good understanding where the problems to address are.
As western tourists always seem to find out when they land with their gigantic suitcases, many Tokyo train stations require stairs to enter or exit.
...and we haven't even discussed the fact that riding the train with a wheelchair typically involves reservation of a staff member on each end of the journey, to help you get on and off.
I live here and have eyes. But tell me more about "disinformation."
Tokyo metro's standard for accessibility is to have one route that is accessible from street level to the platform. That's fine, but it's a far cry from every entrance being accessible, or even just ensuring that you don't require staff support to make it through that route. Consider Takadanobaba [1] -- a major transit point that I know well. Yes, it's technically "one route", but just taking into account subway station exits (and not Seibu or JR line transfers, which are harder), it qualifies only because it has a single elevator that goes to ground. Literally every other exit is inaccessible.
[1] https://www.tokyometro.jp/lang_en/station/takadanobaba/index...
(i use a wheelchair.)
Well, first, I'm talking not just about the subway, but all rail lines, which is a higher bar.
Setting that aside, what I meant was what you've inferred -- there's typically one elevator path that will get you out of an "accessible" station. Yes, that (usually) requires one elevator per platform to work at all, but it still leaves most exits inaccessible in the average case.
I started this subthread only by saying that Tokyo is not particularly wheelchair friendly. If you use one, I don't know how you could possibly dispute this. It's a land of staircases, and I've been repeatedly foiled just trying to move heavy luggage.
I grant you that in Japan they will usually bend over backwards to make something work, but I really feel for disabled folks here.
tokyo more broadly: it's improving, but yeah, it's nowhere close to 100%. obviously i won't disagree with you there.
and i didn't mean to come off as too harsh. but i imagined someone reading your comment and being deeply discouraged (as i might have been, many years younger) when in reality tokyo has possibly one of the best and most accessible subway systems in the world.
it's not all roses, but outside of the US, most of the world is not so wheelchair-friendly (in my experience and talking to disabled folks, at least). (and don't get me started on NYC, which is just wheelchair-hostile.)
Fair point. And I should apologize for being a bit snarky in response -- I get prickly when accused of "disinformation".
I admit that I'm used to the US ADA version of things, and that colors my views. But yeah, by the standards of the rest of the world, that's probably a pretty high bar.
> (and don't get me started on NYC, which is just wheelchair-hostile.)
Oh, definitely.
on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff provides is truly excellent. most lines have nearly level train-to-platform gaps, but if i feel like i need a ramp, i can ask the attendant at the gate, and they will arrange for someone to quickly unfold a portable ramp when the train arrives, and for someone to do the same at the destination, exactly where i arrive. (coming from the US, can i imagine this level of service at any US city? uh, yeah, no.)
I get that, and I also don't think they need to plop an elevator at every staircase, but there are so many stations where they could have ramps or some other minor improvement to make more exits accessible. And if the one path drops you on the wrong side of the tracks from your destination, that's often more than a five-minute problem -- my own home station has one elevator on the north side of the tracks, but if your destination is on the south, you must exit, cross a busy intersection, and cross the tracks at grade.
> on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff provides is truly excellent.
I agree. I just made a similar comment on your other response. Compared to many places in the world, they're at least trying.
It seems like many times "society vs individual" discussion comes down to a cartoon like straw man discussion, but, living in Japan a long time, the difference in balance point feels quite tangible every day. I won't claim that this is a good tradeoff for everybody, but each society has quite serious benefits as (at times grating) restrictions.
It can be quite difficult to do something too outside the norm in Tokyo, but I am always surprised by the kindness, thoughtfulness and humane-ness I have been shown over the years. In places like San Francisco, a wild variation of individual expression is encouraged, but it sometimes interactions with other people can feel quite jarring and little recognition for simple, calm coexisting humanity.
It really comes down to personal preferences.
The only people in the background that I could see were people, young and old, travelling to and from school, offices, workplaces and so on.
The video was long and if i were to travel one day to Tokyo i would definitely follow the same route. Fresh air, nature, backstreets, all sorts of engineering and views.
How is it possible that a city of 35M in the heart of Tokyo, he barely passed a few bicycles and people outdoors enjoying life during a trip that went all over the place for hours ?
Is that living ?
US's #1 priority is to separate out the undesirables from living next to you. This was accomplished by zoning (big lots, min construction size, HOAs, laws), suburbs, must have car, etc -- all of which are only accessible to the super rich.
If you read through the description, what they talk about is that the culture is built around the idea of the individual being part of something bigger, and that consideration and respect for that something bigger (other people), is core to your own identity.
That's not hard for a lot of cultures, but it's almost impossible for most cultures in the Western hemisphere, and to change it would require a cultural reset that would run against the grain of many things that make those cultures what they are.
If it were possible though - and there are times when certain subcultures had standards of etiquette different to those widely accepted today in the West - it wouldn't need 100% of people to "sign up", just enough to make it ostracising to not conform. And then the outliers would conform.
We do this already: it's OK (albeit illegal), to cycle through a red light where I live, because lots of people do it, but if you were to try and get served ahead of your turn in a pub, you might get into an argument, because nobody does that without expecting a problem.
I feel like half your post is dancing around not saying this.
I'm saying that culture spreads through fear of being ostracized and the cost of not conforming to that culture. This is true in any country. It seems Japan has a "broader" and "firmer" culture that is rooted in respect to others, but it would take some serious effort for a similar culture to take hold in Europe or the US, I think.
A sense of "non conformity" leading to issues is not unique to Japan though, in Europe it is described as a problem with "multiculturalism".
The British (of which I am one), have spent thousands of years stealing the best bits of immigrant culture but seem to have forgotten that (or have been unable to absorb, for whatever reason), for the last ~60 years. That's leading to a rise in far-right sentiment and a growing desire for mono-culturalism. I can see evidence of that in Germany, France and other European nations. I could easily imagine it appearing more in Japan.
Enforcment is a matter of encoding the rules and then applying a carrot and/or stick -- same as any other rule.
It takes humans years to learn how to do this. Entire books are written on the subject. A major medical disorder affecting millions of people includes a persistent difficulty doing this specific thing. Even normal people have to put serious effort into this if they visit a place where societal norms are different from what they're used to.
If it's not complicated, then I'm sure you can write down the rules for some specific situation real quick. Go ahead....
"Put trash in a trashcan and not on the ground"
That wasn't complicated. And took 30seconds. Are there a lot of rules? Of course. Is knowing them all in advance possible? Of course not. Don't confuse that with 'complicated'.
Fine people who litter. Have an ai voice chide people who stand on the wrong side of an escalator. Both simple.
https://myjrpass.com/ja/blog/Escalator_Rules_Japan
> However, each region in Japan has a different side to stand. In Tokyo, people stand on the left side and in Osaka, people stand on the right side.
I'm surprised to find this sentiment on a site filled with computer programmers. The most important and difficult lesson of computer programming is that simple-sounding rules have a lot of details that we take for granted.
I think this way of thinking, being obtuse on purpose to try to win an internet argument (without a prize, no less), is the more unnecessary thing. What point does that argumentation try to prove other than that a hypothetical version of you, as opposed to most humans who live in large cities, are an inflexible idiot?
Most people are not 100% unaware of the context in which they are engaging. We know to apply escalator rules when we're at an escalator. We know to put things in bins when we have things to put in bins. What we don't know, we can learn through observation, reading the atmosphere, and making at least a minimal effort not to showboat our individualism and, apparently, any obtuse refusal to engage with our context.
(By the way, I don't actually think you are an inflexible idiot.)
There are some less obtuse issues with your universal pronouncement. There are escalators where it's too narrow to pass. There's no need nor expectation to stand to one side on these. The same goes for escalators that are so long that nobody's walking up them to accelerate their progress, or when nobody is around, or when it's so crowded nobody's able to pass anyway. And, at least in the places I'm familiar with, it doesn't apply in places where people aren't going to be in a big hurry. Stand right, pass left applies to subway stations but not malls.
Maybe this all seems obvious. Well, go to a tourist-heavy place with escalators and observe how much of this is learned behavior that takes repeated long-term exposure to understand.
Manners are really complicated. The escalator thing is a relatively simple example compared to something like, say, paying for a meal in a restaurant with a group, and it's already pretty deep when you dig into it.
It's not so complicated that you assume you need to run out at this very moment to find the nearest elevator just to prove a point. That's moronic.
> There are escalators where it's too narrow to pass
So you see what everybody else is doing and do that. Presumably, if it's that narrow, everybody's just standing in the centre.
> The same goes for escalators that are so long that nobody's walking up them to accelerate their progress
The fact the staircase is so long is exactly why people would be walking up an escalator, to save the most time.
> or when nobody is around
Then it clearly doesn't matter.
> or when it's so crowded nobody's able to pass anyway
If everybody's on one side, it's not too crowded.
> it doesn't apply in places where people aren't going to be in a big hurry
Alright, that's fine for where you are familiar. It won't take long at all to notice that's not the case in Japan, there are enough elevators all around the place.
> Manners are really complicated
If you're completely unobservant yet somehow think you need to be on edge at all times, which seems contradictory, I'm sure it is.
Or if you think that they're inflexible edicts without nuance. They're manners, not morals.
All you’re really saying here is that our big brains are sufficiently capable to make sense of the complexity, which I mostly won’t argue with.
Caving on manners to avoid the "struggle", or rather, caving on manners because one benefits from doing so is just a reflection of how much one values the values. This is simply saying that more often than not we can maintain them, it just might not be worth it to us.
My experience living in an incredibly multi-cultural immigrant dense area, is overwhelmingly "No". People like their "home" cultures (generally they believe its the best), and they tend to carry some degree of resentment for their new society for not recognizing that. It creates endless friction at the edges (whereas core values tend to be pretty similar globally).
Japan doesn't really deal with this at all, and what immigrant ingress they have is usually fueled by people trying to live a Japanese like life.
Before reading the article, I guessed that it would ultimately be about human cooperation. Most discussions about human activities seem to come back to how people work together and respect shared spaces.
I also think this idea extends to environmental problems. In the end, they still boil down to human cooperation. If we want to solve environmental problems, we first have to solve problems of human cooperation. Simply put, to reduce conflict between humans and nature, we must first reduce conflict among humans.
Is that respect ?
Yes, it still exists. It is also slowly going away, just like mandatory drinking parties.