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Posted by ughitsaaron 1 hour ago

Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work(jacobin.com)
58 points | 61 comments
jamestimmins 37 minutes ago|
As a California tech worker (where the article is focused), I have zero interest in joining a union and firmly believe that much of what has been possible as a tech employee (high paying, interesting career) is in part because we don't have unions, and instead employees own equity and get valuable skills.

Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind. I see no upside in killing the goose with the golden egg.

superfrank 4 minutes ago||
> Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind. I see no upside in killing the goose with the golden egg.

I agree, but that's actually one of the strongest arguments for why tech workers should unionize now. Wages are high because employees have leverage due to 10-15 years of demand for skilled workers being higher than supply. If you wait until that leverage is gone to form a union then you've lost a lot of the leverage to negotiate for better conditions as a union.

For the record, I've been in a union in another industry much earlier in my career, and I'm pretty on the fence about a tech workers union, but I think your argument is pretty short sighted.

hackthemack 20 minutes ago|||
These topics are just so difficult to debate. They are filled with feelings and one person's perspective or anecdote, and it is difficult to drill down into what is true or what is not true.

You wrote "Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind".

How do you know?

And, for the sake of argument, let us say it is the best deal in the history of humankind, does that make it fair that the big tech companies did the following...

As a small rebuttal of sorts, consider

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

You are making less money than what you would have been making if that illegal arrangement had not been made.

bko 3 minutes ago|||
Look at other unions. It's a "union" of workers so they need to have some guidelines.

Teaching for instance you know exactly how much money you'll be making over the next 20 years. Add a masters (which may or may not contribute to you being a better teacher) get a bump.

Do you believe there is a direct correlation with how long someone was working there and how productive they are? Would you like to live in this rubric? What kind of people do you think are interested in this kind of rigid rubric? It works in some places that are commoditized. A toll collector does the job, and maybe there is some merit to rewarding someone for loyalty. But programming is not that kind of job.

The best people want to work in a place where they're valued (and paid) on merit. Why shouldn't a better engineer with less formal experience be promoted above someone who has been filling a desk for the last 20 years?

adamisom 8 minutes ago|||
>How do you know?

Well, if a European dev asked me how I could possibly know if they'd make more in a less regulated environment, I would point to American salaries.

Agree it's hard to know things and that antitrust arrangement was bad. If we're talking policy, we are implicitly accepting counterfactual reasoning (because otherwise why would we change policy).

hnav 15 minutes ago|||
The underlying thesis for the valuation of all these AI labs is that 80% of tech workers can be replaced with automation.
satvikpendem 5 minutes ago|||
Then why are these labs actively hiring engineers?
kxjwidjwjdj 13 minutes ago|||
Except they can’t and these AI labs know that very well, which is why their marketing push is always so overpoweringly annoying: they have to convince you because they know they are wrong and their product will not deliver what they are promising.
DiscourseFan 29 minutes ago|||
Yeah just wait until you get laid off
jamestimmins 28 minutes ago|||
I've been laid off. It was fine because software is literally the most marketable skill in the world.

Edit: But also, this was a pre-profit VC-backed company. If those companies can't lay people off, it's not like you make good money with more job security. Either the company just has less runway (so I still lose my job, just later and with everyone else) or they adapt by hiring fewer people at lower salaries.

Apocryphon 26 minutes ago||
Within the last four years?
hylaride 14 minutes ago||
I was canned early last year. Looking for a new job was mostly fine. It wasn't insanely easy like 4 years ago and I had to network a bit, but there very much is still demand for qualified people.

Would suck to be in this market as an entry-level engineer, though.

missedthecue 17 minutes ago||||
Most tech workers I have met with parent commenters opinion have been laid off at various times in their career.

I think it's important to note that unions aren't very good tools to avoid layoffs. If there is a company specific hardship, the union can't simply force the company to maintain headcount all the way into bankruptcy. On the other hand if there is a secular change across the industry, the unions can't prevent that change either. Easy example is how Big 3 automakers were 100% unionized in the 1970s and have since shed about 500,0000 American jobs despite producing more automobiles than ever.

Unions tend to be good at bargaining for better pay and benefits, but the current status quo is that most tech workers already have decent pay and benefits anyway.

triceratops 14 minutes ago||
> most tech workers don't have bad pay or benefits anyway.

But what if they could be even better? This is an industry with 75-80% gross margins, quite unlike any other industry in history.

missedthecue 11 minutes ago||
But despite those margins, it's also an industry with a LOT of unprofitable businesses, unlike any other industry in history. From many people's perspective, if they already earn well, why rock the boat in a high effort high risk way so that the union can negotiate an 8% raise instead of a 4% raise. I don't need the money. And the bad to worst case outcomes could give me serious irreversible buyers remorse.
triceratops 3 minutes ago||
> I don't need the money.

I promise you, management doesn't think that way.

throw-the-towel 27 minutes ago||||
It's still not clear to me whether union protection is going to be worth the decrease in job creation. There's a reason Europe has way less IT positions with worse salaries.
braiamp 6 minutes ago|||
Salary isn't even be all end all. In fact, higher salary might be worse, because in total you have to pay out of pocket for things your europeans counterparts. Therefore they should have more discretionary income compared to a US worker (I don't think I have to source this).
satvikpendem 4 minutes ago|||
Actually it is, because you can make money in the US and then retire in Europe or wherever else you want and live like a king, as many people I know have done.
throw-the-towel 4 minutes ago||||
This gets trotted out every time, but let's be realistic: you can't pay your rent in European good vibes.
DiscourseFan 3 minutes ago|||
No, the benefits Europeans get do not translate to any equivalence to the money an Average American makes. The per capita income is like 100k a year now.
DiscourseFan 4 minutes ago||||
I think you’ll find that at the very least unions preserve jobs in contracting industries, which software is clearly in the process of.
eatYourFood 15 minutes ago|||
[dead]
alephnerd 28 minutes ago|||
Unions don't help with that as can be seen with Volkswagen or much of Detroit.

Or, from an IP-driven industry perspective, the offshoring of Hollywood following the SAG and WGA strikes.

If IATSE couldn't stop VFX from being offshored, then tech unions wouldn't be able to either.

Edit: can't reply

> Without film industry unions, might the offshoring have been undertaken even earlier?

Not really. VFX was already largely offshored by the early 2010s despite only starting as an industry in the 1990s.

Melatonic 6 minutes ago|||
VFX workers did try to unionize along with software engineers. Major tech companies colluded illegally and were caught doing this. This was way before the AI boom
Apocryphon 9 minutes ago||||
Without film industry unions, might the offshoring have been undertaken even earlier?
throw-the-towel 7 minutes ago||
History knows no conditionals.
mikojan 15 minutes ago|||
Volkswagen is perhaps the greatest counter-example. The union in Germany converted every layoff initiative in whole or in part (more often in whole) into partial retirements, backfill stops, reduced working hours, compensation freezes.
alephnerd 10 minutes ago||
100,000 jobs were still lost and there is no one else who can absorb them.

And the experience of the VFX industry is probably the best example of what would happen to a heavily unionized software driven industry.

DiscourseFan 6 minutes ago||
Wait a second, are you arguing that it’s better to just straight up fire people? In that case, the company is absorbing the lion’s share of the profits (or whatever profit is left) so you are effectively arguing in favor of shielding an entity over the livelihoods of the people who work within it.
well_ackshually 6 minutes ago|||
The lack of union is exactly the reason why every software developer shut the fuck up and took money in exchange for building spyware, tracking software, ran psychological experiments on unknowing people and generally contributed to the destruction of society. "Engineers" would have the balls to stand up to it, and unions would be the backbone that helps it happen.

Instead, you got a nice paycheck, and made sure to make the world actively worse for everyone. Good job.

ktallett 26 minutes ago|||
This golden egg has a funny smell. You are exclusively focusing on high paying as interesting is found in many careers. Lots of people don't trade rights for cash. Many prefer a comfortable lifestyle that protects their families and life style, whilst allowing them to just do a fair day's work in exchange for pay. It is far better if people don't feel they need to put in endless hours or always have to please someone to avoid getting fired.
Apocryphon 28 minutes ago|||
ZIRP era perspective
fnord77 23 minutes ago||
until the VC money runs out (e.g. high interest rates) and we have to grind away at some awful, large company
satvikpendem 2 minutes ago||
Oh the horror of making 500k working at a large company of Google.

Seriously, I wonder if tech workers really even understand how lucky they are being able to sit at a desk instead of, say, toiling away in the mines.

hylaride 57 minutes ago||
This is essentially a story about front-line traditional desktop support/sysadmins at a public university.

It's not going to be the same story at much higher paid shops where workers often have equity, good benefits, and the market has provided access to other jobs if you lose yours (in my experience, there are still shortages of qualified and competent engineers).

I would like a different method to deal with the pitfalls, but the politics, drama, overhead, and costs of unionization just don't interest me. I'm not interested in being at one job for life.

Melatonic 4 minutes ago||
If anything a union would aid job mobility. And theres no reason you cant still individually negotiate and receive equity if you are in a union.
popalchemist 14 minutes ago|||
Being in a union isn't about being at one job for life. I'm a member of IATSE (the huge mega-union behind thousands of technical job titles/positions in the entertainment industry, such as film editors, sound mixers, etc; really it's many mini-unions acting as one.) There is really no connection to belonging to a union and being stuck in one job title, in fact the incentives are set up in the opposite direction - the greater the group of people the union represents, the more mobility (and many other benefits) its members get.

You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals.

mikojan 39 minutes ago||
Financial equity, benefits and opportunities at other companies in my experience are not the determining factors for tech workers. Lack of or loss of self-determination and self-governance are.

The tech workers who are unionized that I know didn't join for financial gain because there is none (except for a few who are bad at bargaining). They joined to exert control over their workplaces and help build companies they can be proud of.

Plasmoid 59 minutes ago||
My ask for these is always the same. I just want to see how this union would work, specifically.

Don't compare it to other unions or say it could be like X. Just write a few hundred words on what it would actually be like.

romanows 29 minutes ago|
I agree in general, but this article claims that the unionized tech workers now have pay increases, cheaper health benefits, and layoff protections. There is also a discussion about the process. This article at least is not just "unions good" (waves hands).
Animats 11 minutes ago||
That is a public-sector union. That's different. Political power matters in that space.

A useful private sector union to watch is The Animation Guild, IATSE local 639.[1] They represent traditional animators in Hollywood - Disney, Dreamworks, Marvel, etc. But they've never been able to organize a game company, despite years of trying. They have good contract terms - the contract is a floor on wages, not a ceiling, and overtime is handled well.

Here's what purports to be a complete list of "tech unions" in the US.[2] Only six have a contract with the employer. That's pathetic. The six:

- "Apple Shuttle Drivers Union". Not even Apple employees, but drivers for Compass Transportation. Teamsters.

- "Gimlet Union". Gimlet Media employees. Writers Guild of America. 83 people.

- "Glitch Union". Glitch platform defunct as of 2025. Communications Workers of America.

- "Ringer Union". Affiliated with Spotify. Writers Guild of America. 65 people.

- "Security Guards at Silicon Valley" Service Employees International Union. 3000 people.

- "United HCL Workers of Pittsburgh". Google contractor. 20th largest H1-B visa sponsor in US. "HCL America INC has filed 60,667 H1B applications and 1,294 PERM green card petitions. Avg salary: $102,175." Steelworkers Union. 60 people.

Only the last represents "tech workers", and that company is mostly non US citizens.

Anyone know of other unions which, right now, contractually represent tech workers in the US? Just not finding any real tech worker unionization.

[1] https://animationguild.org/

[2] https://data.collectiveaction.tech/unions

tptacek 7 minutes ago||
There was an opportunity to organize and exploit market power back in 2017-2018, when there was a frenzy of recruiting and growth in the industry. The field was also much more ideologically coherent, in the wake of the first Trump election, than it is today. But nothing came of it. It's less clear that any similar opportunity exists today, or why it would come together now when it didn't under more favorable circumstances then.
pewpewlaser 1 hour ago||
Was part of the frontline effort to get our colleagues into UPTE. As we move towards AI automation, we need to make sure that workers have a seat at the table when we impact our students, patients, and our research across the state.
patternMachine 25 minutes ago||
This article is really about IT support, not "tech" workers.

What tech workers need, if they need anything, is a professional organization like lawyers, doctors, and architects have.

missedthecue 8 minutes ago||
How would that even work? The federal/state government would legally ban people from writing code (like they can legally ban people from practicing law or medicine) unless they have a certificate from the programmer industry guild? I think the low barrier to entry is something that makes the field so interesting and dynamic. Being interesting and dynamic are great things in tech whereas you might not want a real dynamic and outside-the-box doctor or estate attorney.
Apocryphon 7 minutes ago||
Tech workers have the IEEE, and the ACM. We need an IEEE/ACM with teeth.
Apocryphon 23 minutes ago||
For all of the high compensation tech workers can make in specific regions, at specific firms, how is it that they lack the leverage to demand something as basic as remote work, or as simple as not working in open offices? Consider the ubiquitous distaste for the open layout, how it creates distractions, damages flow state, that "no one" actually likes to work in a bullpen. Yet for all the grousing that software engineers do about them, they're still the prevailing industry trend. For like two decades now. In the status quo, where's the worker power to stand against that?
Mountain_Skies 29 minutes ago||
My experience has been that most tech employees are "exempt" employees, but other than being denied overtime pay, they're mainly treated by employers as non-exempt. Exempt was meant for organizations full of professionals who are generally autonomous, which rarely is the case in tech, especially software development where the micromanagement can be extremely high. Tech workers aren't treated like doctors and lawyers. Employment law shouldn't pretend that they are.
fnord77 19 minutes ago|
It's funny, the DSA in SF has been very anti-tech worker, complaining we get paid too much.

Imagine that - socialists complaining that workers get paid livable wages.

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