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Posted by bohaska 7 hours ago

Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)(academic.oup.com)
102 points | 57 comments
PeterStuer 44 minutes ago|
Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.
bodash 31 minutes ago|
Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock
sigmoid10 2 minutes ago|||
Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well. After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting extreme blue light filtering glasses too (make sure they cover your eyes fully so light doesn't leak in from the side). Finally, add a wind down routine that does not involve any kind of mental or physical excitement. For me it was as simple as walking around the block. You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.
Itchyjohn 1 minute ago||||
You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.
PeterStuer 16 minutes ago|||
It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.
esperent 3 minutes ago||
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mutagen 3 hours ago||
This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research:

https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312

Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.

Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.

bohaska 19 minutes ago||
Thanks for finding that!

I apologize for not reading the full study before submitting it on Hacker News and for the misleading headline on the frontpage given the context of the dosages used, I really should have noticed that the link only contained an abstract.

hinkley 1 hour ago|||
Long ago when I paid attention to this, the wisdom was to watch out because most melatonin pills are targeted to geriatric patients. Old folks need a significant boost to their melatonin to deal with eroding sleep quality, not a little hit of it. So as a 30 year old or younger you want a fraction of what grandad is taking.
HexPhantom 54 minutes ago||
You'd expect the standard OTC dose to be a sensible starting point, not potentially several times more than a younger person needs
hinkley 14 seconds ago||
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wincy 3 hours ago|||
I take 300mcg when I’m having a hard time getting to sleep or if I’ve had a lot of caffeine. Mostly because Scott Alexander told me to.
gleenn 1 hour ago|||
I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?
muvlon 34 minutes ago|||
They're supplements, not medication, but I've seen crazy variation in the dosages of Vitamin D pills.
whycome 15 minutes ago||
2000iu….or 60000iu. Yep.
tpm 1 hour ago|||
I suspect the dosage and absorption isn't fully understood yet or very individual. For me some 2mg pills work fine and other 3mg pills don't; currently I use 4mg time-release and it's mostly fine. 1 mg is definitely not enough for me.

I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.

ohthehugemanate 10 minutes ago||
Since they're not regulated as medication, melatonin pills have no guarantees about actual melatonin content. In studies, the vast majority of supplement labels are inaccurate.
ButlerianJihad 4 minutes ago||
Remember NIST...?

https://store.usp.org/product/1380105?srsltid=AfmBOop0oZFH9S...

mutagen 2 hours ago|||
Yeah I'm in the 300 mcg camp, I take a time release formulation, try to take it early but often it isn't far off bedtime.
HexPhantom 56 minutes ago|||
Seriously, separating the 2mg and 5mg groups would make this a lot more informative
turtleyacht 3 hours ago|||
Coffee isn't mentioned. Morning cognition could be impacted by whether subjects take caffeine before starting tasks.
HexPhantom 52 minutes ago||
Good point. For regular coffee drinkers, testing an hour after waking without their usual caffeine could be its own cognitive impairment experiment
lostlogin 2 minutes ago||
It’s hard to do a blind test on yourself.

But I accidentally ran this test on myself recently and didn’t realise until I got home and found my full cup on the bench.

It was disturbing to know how much I need it.

znpy 1 hour ago|||
Indeed the best melatonin supplement i took was a small spray bottle where each hit was 500mg
DANmode 3 hours ago||
5 is almost universally too much.

4 is almost universally too much..

3 is the most I’ve ever recommended.

More than enough.

pazimzadeh 54 minutes ago||
less than 1 is plenty
s-ww 2 hours ago||
Next, the same experiment could be done with individuals who would be more likely to use melatonin supplements, or even just a broader group than "healthy young adults". I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed since there's a high chance these healthy young adults don't have the problem the supplements are designed for. I'm not surprised about "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures" for these people.

Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.

*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.

extrabajs 32 minutes ago||
> I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed

This is from the first paragraph in the abstract:

> Exogenous melatonin has been shown to improve sleep in individuals with sleep disorders, such as insomnia and delayed sleep phase disorder. However, research on the effect of exogenous melatonin on sleep in healthy young adults is limited.

HexPhantom 48 minutes ago|||
Exactly. The relevant comparison for someone with insomnia isn't melatonin vs perfect natural sleep, it's melatonin plus some morning grogginess vs not getting enough sleep at all
ttoinou 1 hour ago||
Wouldnt you be less efficient with less sleep ? For a startup you should improve sleep quality
s-ww 54 minutes ago|||
Generally yes, and I definitely am an advocate of getting enough sleep and good quality sleep.

Regarding "sleep more to be more efficient"; Hard to say without visiting a parallel universe. But in this specific case it was really about having enough hours in a day. Most of the work did not require me at my sharpest. If I was in the same situation today, Claude would be doing these menial things for me and I'd sleep more. But we didn't have Claude then.

It was a tech startup that I wanted to build without any outside money. With investments of course I'd just hire more people. I had luck and perseverance, and everything turned out great. I had 100% ownership and sold it for private equity. Now I only work because I like solving tricky problems, and not working gets incredibly boring after a while.

olivermuty 1 hour ago|||
Yes, but this is sadly a lesson most founders (especially american ones) need to self teach.

I certainly did and struggle with both sleep and stress induced anxiety, 9 years after my founder burnout.

ajkjk 2 hours ago||
My understanding is that you ought to take melatonin in small doses (0.3 or so) an hour or two before sleep in order to get tired, whereupon you sleep (normally, ish, unless you take too much and then you get crazy dreams or sleep paralysis). If I take it and go right to bed I always wake up still in the 'window' of its effect.
Zardoz84 59 minutes ago|
I was taking small doses of melatonin before go to sleep for a year or two. To help me begin to sleep. I have a tinnitus. Usually I have a deep sleep. I can get sleep, I can sleep all night without problems. it's only the first hour that can be problematic for me. I stoped like half year, and I don't having problems to sleep.
gwern 3 hours ago||
Hard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.
ororroro 2 hours ago||
The study is on "healthy young adults". How much improvement would you expect on someone who is already "healthy"? It's not like they are going to ascend and become superhuman.
colordrops 3 hours ago|||
Anecdote - I've used it dozens of times and I'm always foggy in the AM, so I avoid it if I have to be sharp the next morning. Perhaps it's a coincidence and this study is flawed, but I can believe it pretty easily.
flexagoon 21 minutes ago|||
What dose are you using? Most OTC melatonin supplements are sold in a 3 or 5mg dose, while the correct one is ~0.3mg or even lower for some people. High dose may be related to the fogginess.
dripdry45 2 hours ago|||
same here. I use 5HTP instead, apparently the same chemical pathway just goes in at a different point. no fog in the morning at all. Nice and sharp, feel good.
WarOnPrivacy 2 hours ago||
Not sleeping impairs my morning cognition - a lot. Melatonin is part of the rotating stacks I use to mitigate insomnia.

My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.

johntash 2 hours ago|
What else is part of your rotating stacks? Asking as someone who melatonin doesn't seem to help much
mutagen 2 hours ago|||
Not OP but I seem to get a benefit from GABA. Valerian root is effective at inducing sleep but leaves me groggy and I've had paradoxical anxiety reactions to it and there's some question around its longer term use. L-theanine is often mentioned but I'm not sure I benefit. Magnesium glycinate is another that comes up often.
rapsey 32 minutes ago|||
Insomniac for 20 years. What was a complete solution for me was: magnesium, b6 p5p (p5p form very important) and the ultimate punch glycine.

Glycine takes some getting used to, as you will have crazy intense dreams at first. But it is a very safe supplement to take even in large doses.

I always had huge insomnia issues after a physically intensive days after workouts. The stack I settled on solved it. A heavy day just needs a bit more magnesium and quite a bit more glycine.

zdc1 15 minutes ago||
Anecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.
vient 8 minutes ago|
This may just be too much. I settled up on 0.2mg dosage - you can find 0.1mg tablets, easy to try different dosages with them. Also seems to work better if you take it 2-3 hours before sleep.
msuniverse2026 41 minutes ago||
I've noticed if I use the f.lux feature for just 15 minutes I begin to get tired at night. Blue light is a hell of a drug.
senderista 2 hours ago|
Even 200 mcg is enough to give me brain fog. I stick with 100 mcg unless I'm really having a hard time falling asleep.
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