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Posted by awnird 13 hours ago

As AI eats the web, the internet’s collective memory is disappearing(thewalrus.ca)
343 points | 385 commentspage 3
ElProlactin 12 hours ago|
There's too much going on in this article and while I think some of the points are valid, others go too far.

A lot of the "cultural record" the author refers to is just digital junk. Random digital content that very few people care about, if we're being honest. Trying to hoard every bit of digital information ever produced is not the same thing as preserving "culture".

Case in point:

> Even the increasing use of ephemeral formats like Instagram Stories and WhatsApp status updates means that large portions of cultural, social, and political communication are never conserved in the first place. As a society, we can probably survive bad search results and come up with another way to schedule a sunset make-out session. But we can’t aspire to sovereignty if we can’t retain and retrieve our collective memory.

For most of human history, nobody was trying to "conserve" every cultural, social or political communication ever produced, and I fail to see how Instagram Stories and WhatsApp status updates, many of which aren't even truly broadcast publicly for all to see, are part of some imaginary "collective memory."

If you find a web page, see an Instagram Story or receive a message that's important to you, save it or take a screenshot. But let's not pretend all these things belong in a global Digital Civilizational Archives.

jbm 12 hours ago||
While I dislike Instagram reels and stories, I do feel like there is almost certainly scientific studies on radicalization that would benefit from actual histories of dumb memes. I feel like that about a lot of things, really.

There probably are some important hidden discord groups that would explain the origin of many political positions. Unlike smokey meetings in scummy bars, that exists now and is on a database somewhere.

inigyou 56 minutes ago||
4chan archives are almost certainly relevant. But the advertisement poster for every single club night in Berlin probably is not - a representative sample is enough. More complete data is probably more useful, at least slightly, but it quickly runs into diminishing returns. The distinction is that certain 4chan posts have outsized influence (power law distribution of influence?), but club nights are all the same. It is conceivable that a certain poster could be important and not recognized as important in the moment, but not as likely.

And that's public announcements. Do we really need to archive more than a few of the "I'm in this city, look at me I'm so rich and beautiful" short videos?

bitwize 12 hours ago||
On the other hand, when modern archaeologists discover "Claudius has a small dick" graffiti on the side of some God-forsaken wall in Pompeii, they're fascinated. The presence of such graffiti adds color and texture to the civilization inhabited by Virgil and Ovid. What's just disposable background noise to us may provide context into how we lived and thought to our far-future descendants.
ElProlactin 11 hours ago||
> The presence of such graffiti adds color and texture to the civilization inhabited by Virgil and Ovid.

It does, but do you think that people at that time thought anywhere near as much about preserving their scribbles as we do?

I'd venture a guess that we've created more "content" since the advent of the internet than in all of human history prior, and most of it is stored on things that aren't even designed to last a human lifetime without failure.

The idea that we're going to save every piece of digital junk for posterity just isn't realistic or healthy.

> What's just disposable background noise to us may provide context into how we lived and thought to our far-future descendants.

You're right, but you're also assuming that they're going to care that much, and that we're going to survive that long.

queenkjuul 11 hours ago||
I think it isn't that we should save all of it, it's that we are not saving any of it. Random letters, notebooks, calendars, family photos, restaurant menus, etc have all proven useful to various historians, of which there will essentially be none from our era.
ElProlactin 11 hours ago||
> I think it isn't that we should save all of it, it's that we are not saving any of it. Random letters, notebooks, calendars, family photos, restaurant menus, etc have all proven useful to various historians, of which there will essentially be none from our era.

Well as far as digital letters, photos, menus, etc. are concerned, there's nothing stopping someone with the means and motivation from investing in a doomsday storage facility specifically designed to store these things for posterity. If people can do this for crypto they can do it for digital content.

As for physical items, do you know how much junk Americans have in storage units? The US self-storage industry generates over $40 billion in annual revenue. We're probably keeping more "stuff" in storage units where it has a chance of surviving a zombie apocalypse than at any point in human history.

queenkjuul 6 hours ago||
I mean, none of that stuff in storage units is human communication, though. Nobody prints emails or text convos or insta photos. Nobody is mailing each other letters. So none of that stuff is in storage units, though plenty of it from previous generations might be.

I don't necessarily think all this digital stuff is worth saving, i just see how it could be that we are essentially erasing our modern historical record by putting 100℅ of it in private data centers with no permanent records.

And then you see how plenty of contemporary digital media from the last 30-40 years is actually already lost to time just in our short timeframe. I don't think acknowledging that this could be detrimental is necessarily an argument for trying to preserve all of it. We, as a society, went very rapidly from preserving a lot of it to preserving none of it. I don't see the harm in thinking about the implications of that.

Nobody actively preserved letters and menus and postcards and photos, they just persisted by nature of being physical. Digital records only persist with continuous effort to preserve them. So the record for future historians will be highly curated and likely much more limited.

kukkeliskuu 3 hours ago||
The world needs an anti-SEO search engine, that explicitly penalizes for something that appears SEO.
lopis 3 hours ago||
My personal anecdote is that I used to search for "xyz nutrition" quite often on Google. It used to provide a data table with lots of information. Sure, nutritional information is hard to get right, but at least that data was consistent.

Now Google just gives you an AI answer with random values pulled from blogs and Reddit. It's almost always blatantly incorrect. I genuinely can't understand why Google would destroy its most valuable search features. Disclaimer: I work for Ecosia, so I know for a fact that users really value these search widgets, and it was often cited as a reason they couldn't leave Google.

tempfile 2 hours ago|
[dead]
p0w3n3d 4 hours ago||
Hello negative feedback loop.
danpalmer 13 hours ago||
It's hard to get past the beginning of this article and take it at all seriously. The quote someone who missed a sunset because they asked google and supposedly got the wrong time... but they didn't think to look at the sun or lack thereof to check? Also when I put "when does the sun set today" I get a single exact figure at the top of my results, not from AI, which is honestly the best kind of result – an exact correct answer.
tayo42 12 hours ago|
They were planning their day for a specific time to be somewhere. If you're looking at the sun it's to late...
mr_mitm 4 hours ago|||
From the article:

> “I had the projector set up outside and was waiting for the sun to set,” wrote one Facebook user in Colorado Springs, “but to my surprise I was simply living in the past. AI informed me the sunset had already happened.”

It does sound a bit bizarre.

Melatonic 3 hours ago||
We really need a SarcasmAI to become a thing.
BeetleB 12 hours ago|||
That's fine, but arguing that Google should give accurate times based on where you are is ... crazy?

In the pre-LLM days it was cool that Google did weather, unit conversions, sports results, etc. But that's not even close to their value proposition. Even 5 years ago if someone told me they had planned a photograph and got it wrong because Google gave them the wrong time for sunset, I would have called them a moron for relying on Google! There are sites and apps dedicated to this. Use one of them!

Dylan16807 4 hours ago||
I don't understand your argument. It's not their core value proposition so it's crazy? That's quite a leap. But giving a good answer is just as core as their search results. The answer is what you're there for and they get to show ads. It's not any stupider to use that info than a dedicated site. Both could be wrong, and you're not a moron if it is.

Installing an app to learn a single time would be the real moron option.

noosphr 11 hours ago||
Gemini's highest tier of plan has the utility of Google search circa 2010. I'm paying $400 for the privilege.
JohnMakin 5 hours ago||
we built extremely powerful plausible bullshit machines targeted toward and trained on an electorate and population that has historically bad education and reading levels, built on top of an already fraught and fragile web which was also built off predatory basically unregulated behavior with a shaky relationship with “truth” and are surprised people have no idea what’s going on?

This was the whole point of it all and why the people in power have bet the farm on it.

inigyou 54 minutes ago||
I think it's also brainwashed the people in power. Half of them have no idea about anything and got their positions by luck.
wartywhoa23 4 hours ago||
I'd quit reading HN long time ago if not for comments like yours, when people call a spade precisely a spade and reignite my smoldering hope for the humankind.
flinux 12 hours ago||
I see only one simple solution (though we should discuss the more complex ones): if Google directly answers a search query, then it must be held accountable for it, for better or for worse, and therefore assume all the benefits and (legal) liabilities that this entails
inigyou 54 minutes ago||
Already happened: https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-holds-google-liable-for-f...
watson_engineer 9 hours ago||
[flagged]
gaigalas 3 hours ago||
Perhaps we should let the content economy crash so that the big monsters eating it starve and die. A new content economy could be built on their carcasses instead.
larodi 3 hours ago|
What a joke. Google did that already 10 year ago when they started evicting stuff from its page rank caches.

AI is merely amplifying what social media and FAANG in general already have done to the 90s web.

Steve16384 1 hour ago|
Before AI, the way people were gaming Google was by filling their pages with pages of verbose fluff (have you ever tried googling how to make a specific cocktail?). Now the AI just makes it easier to generate that fluff.
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